Why Arminianism can rot your bones

[Yeshua1]

Except, according to your theology, belief right? Again belief is an act of doing something and therefore your statement goes against logic.



Including saying I believed in God on my own free will!



So your saying we DO do an something that can merit salvation! We believe?

Vans take is the the Lord credits to us our faith as rightousness...

 

[richardetyler]

Vans take is the the Lord credits to us our faith as rightousness...

I think that thought is biblical as well., but not contraversive (if thats even a word) to calvinism.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/faith-and-the-imputation-of-righteousness

 

[Van]

Except, according to your theology, belief right? Again belief is an act of doing something and therefore your statement goes against logic.

No, we can follow God's direction, but that does not merit salvation. We are not saved because our belief merits salvation. All our works of righteousness is as filthy rags. So your complaint goes against logic. You are saying our filthy rags are works of merit. Simply false.

Including saying I believed in God on my own free will!

No one said that. Why put strawman arguments in my mouth. I said our decision or choice to accept or reject the gospel is our autonomous choice, we are influenced by our life experience but not compelled to reject it or accept it. But who provided the gospel revelation, was it not God. Who drew me with His lovingkindness, was it not God. Who credited my faith as righteousness, flawed as it was, was it not God. Did I put myself spiritually in Christ? No, God did. Therefore, my salvation is not of works but by grace through faith, just as Ephesians 2:8-9 says. My faith came by hearing the gospel.

 

[Van]

I think that thought is biblical as well., but not contraversive (if that's even a word) to Calvinism.

What is "contraversive" to Calvinism are all the verses that have God hardening the hearts of fallen men of flesh. If total spiritual inability were true, then God would not harden hearts.

Rather than accept this obvious truth, Calvinists say hardening actually means not softening. Anyone who says scripture after scripture means the opposite of what it says is devoted to doctrine and not scripture as the sole authority for faith and practice.

Note Calvinists also claim the men in Matthew 23:13 were not actually entering heaven, or the opposite of what it says.

When scripture says God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, Calvinist's say it means all kinds of men.

When scripture says Christ high and lifted up will draw all men, Calvinists say all kinds of men.

When scripture says Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, Calvinist's say world in this usage means elect.

Words are redefined, i.e. choice means non-choice, sequences are reverse, i.e. scripture says we have faith before we are given the right to become children of God, but Calvinist's say God regenerates people before they are able to trust in Christ.

Scripture says we are saved by grace through faith, thus faith comes before the grace of regeneration.

The list is endless.

 

[richardetyler]

No, we can follow God's direction, but that does not merit salvation. We are not saved because our belief merits salvation. All our works of righteousness is as filthy rags. So your complaint goes against logic. You are saying our filthy rags are works of merit. Simply false.

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that nothing we do can be conisdered righteous and that we are dead in sin. Only by God giving us the ability to have faith can we be saved, thus there is nothing that I can do to gain my salvation without God's help.

And for the record I believe that it is God's will that the WHOLE world would come to him, but unfortunately it won't. It rejects him.., Thus he reaches out and makes certain stubborn people turn unto him. I am not a hyper-calvinist.

 

[Van]

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that nothing we do can be conisdered righteous and that we are dead in sin. Only by God giving us the ability to have faith can we be saved, thus there is nothing that I can do to gain my salvation without God's help.

And for the record I believe that it is God's will that the WHOLE world would come to him, but unfortunately it won't. It rejects him.., Thus he reaches out and makes certain stubborn people turn unto him. I am not a hyper-calvinist.

Thanks for dialing back a bit. We both are saying nothing we do toward salvation merits salvation, but I am saying we are saved by grace through faith.

You say fallen men are unable to trust in Christ, but Matthew 13:1-23 tells us that three of the four soils could trust in Christ to some degree, therefore your assertion is false.

You say fallen men are unable to seek God, but Matthew 23:13 has fallen men "entering heaven" before they are blocked by false teachers, therefore your assertion is false.

I can go on and on with specific verses, if read straight up demonstrate Calvinism's TULI are mistaken views of scripture.

You are correct, God desires the whole world be saved, but God does not desire salvation via compulsion, He sets before us the choice of life or death and begs us to choose life. If we do, as determined by God crediting our faith as righteousness, then He spiritually places us in Christ

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for dialing back a bit. We both are saying nothing we do toward salvation merits salvation, but I am saying we are saved by grace through faith.

You say fallen men are unable to trust in Christ, but Matthew 13:1-23 tells us that three of the four soils could trust in Christ to some degree, therefore your assertion is false.

You say fallen men are unable to seek God, but Matthew 23:13 has fallen men "entering heaven" before they are blocked by false teachers, therefore your assertion is false.

I can go on and on with specific verses, if read straight up demonstrate Calvinism's TULI are mistaken views of scripture.

You are correct, God desires the whole world be saved, but God does not desire salvation via compulsion, He sets before us the choice of life or death and begs us to choose life. If we do, as determined by God crediting our faith as righteousness, then He spiritually places us in Christ

This is where where cals and arms part company, as what you casll "compulsion/forcing' sinners to get saved is what we call GRACE, for NO sinners can of and by themselves even be able to get saved by placing faith in jesus unless the Lord granted them repentence and faith!

 

[richardetyler]

You say fallen men are unable to trust in Christ, but Matthew 13:1-23 tells us that three of the four soils could trust in Christ to some degree, therefore your assertion is false.

The four soils are about true believers and false ones. That which fell along the path, heard the gospel, but rejected it and the birds ate it, the ones in the stoney places are those who make a superficial commitment to Christ, it's not real; they are in it only until the stakes are raised and then they fall away (Hebrews 6). Those that are in thorns are those that make a superficial commitment but they can't break from the thorns of this world (love of money or earthly things) and thus they too fall away. There were 3 soils with no fruit, one that did. The way to Heaven is narrow, and "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;"

You say fallen men are unable to seek God, but Matthew 23:13 has fallen men "entering heaven" before they are blocked by false teachers, therefore your assertion is false.

The verse is simply Jesus' rebuke against the pharisees who were teaching false religion and therefore not giving the common people a true path on how to enter heaven. I see nothing that disagrees with Calvin about this. It is simply a statement against spreading false religion. When it is said they allow no one who is interested to go in, it is because they have bought off into their false religion and thus are doomed.

 

[richardetyler]

As a side statement. I just want to say Van that from what you have said, You seem to me to be a born again Christian and therefore a brother. So though you and I may disagree on these things I just wanted to say that I still love you and any other born again believer that disagrees on these subjects. We both can agree that the way to faith that God has chosen is usually by hearing the word, believing the word, and accepting it. Therefore as they say this is an in house debate. But, I am not used to debating my brethen (I debate alot of athiest and agnostics lately particularly at work) and therefore just wanted to say that no hard feelings. If you are truly a Christian, as you seem to be, I would die for you!

 

[Loopie]

Van, you mentioned that you believe Election was 'corporate' in nature. But you fail to see that any corporate group is made up of individuals. You make it seem like God elects a certain group of people, but he doesn't know who those people are. Do you deny God's eternal knowledge? Do you deny God's eternal decree? Is God actually free in choosing whom he will save, or does he look down the tunnel of time, see who is going to respond to him, and then elect that person?

These are questions and issues that you must deal with. When we hear about a person having their name written in the lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, we are not talking about some type of impersonal, corporate body. We are talking about a group (the Elect) that consists of individuals, each of whom is NAMED in the lamb's book of life.

Again, I ask that you please take the time to read both Calvin's Institutes and The Complete Works of James Arminius. Calvinists do not deny the responsibility of man, or the sovereigny of God. Calvinists do not deny that men have a will, and are not automatons. So with that in mind, how is it that you have such anger and hatred towards Calvinism? It seems that your issues with Calvinism is because you do not fully understand the position.

 

[Van]

Loopie, why did you say I fail to see that any corporate group is made up of individuals? Did you not read where I specifically addresses this well know canard? A target group is made of of characteristics, not of individuals, for example a film targeted for teens would not be targeted for specific individual teens.

Why are you asking questions rather than citing specific scripture? I have answered all these questions over and over.

Lets see if you are any different from the rest of the Calvinists. Do you agree with me that a corporately elected group can be characterized by general traits and not be specific to individuals. If you deny this, there is nothing that I can say because in my opinion you are arguing from irrationality.

Like saying when God hardens a heart, what this really means is he has not softened it. Words have meanings.

Next you ask if God foresaw who would believe and elected them individually. I already addressed that the election before time was corporate. If all you want to do is knock now your own strawman arguments, why address them to me?

And lastly just for grins, you said names are written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. This shows that you have not read Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 which indicates names are written from or since or after the foundation of the world. Therefore your argument proves individuals were not chosen before the foundation of the world. Now please agree with your own argument. If you evade, as I expect you will, there is nothing I can say.

 

[Van]

A fallen man, soil number 2, received the gospel with joy. Therefore he has some limited spiritual ability to understand the gospel and respond to be drawn by God with the lovingkindness of the gospel message. Therefore total spiritual inability is demonstrated false.

Ditto for soil number 3 and soil number 4, the all had limited spiritual ability but differed in their level of commitment to Christ.

How would people believe they are saved and say Lord, Lord, if they had not heard the gospel, responded affirmatively to the gospel but their commitment was not from the heart and therefore God did not credit their faith as righteousness.

Calvinists claim that all fallen men hate God all the time, never at any time seek God, and so forth and so on, yet these folks were seeking God. Your doctrine is unbiblical.

 

[Yeshua1]

A fallen man, soil number 2, received the gospel with joy. Therefore he has some limited spiritual ability to understand the gospel and respond to be drawn by God with the lovingkindness of the gospel message. Therefore total spiritual inability is demonstrated false.

Ditto for soil number 3 and soil number 4, the all had limited spiritual ability but differed in their level of commitment to Christ.

How would people believe they are saved and say Lord, Lord, if they had not heard the gospel, responded affirmatively to the gospel but their commitment was not from the heart and therefore God did not credit their faith as righteousness.

Calvinists claim that all fallen men hate God all the time, never at any time seek God, and so forth and so on, yet these folks were seeking God. Your doctrine is unbiblical.

You have to realise from the bible that man can know that God exists, is powerful and creative from his creation in nature, BUT none will be able to come to a saving understanding of God UNLESS there is special divine revelation from Him to sinners, and that is the Bible, but ONLY those whose hearts/minds are openned up by the Lord can receive and understand THAT revelation, and turn to jesus to get saved!

 

[Van]

Yeshua1, you simply repeat your Calvinism assertions endless, without any support. Matthew 23:13 has men entering heaven, so they were coming to an understanding sufficient to enter heaven. There were blocked, prevented from entering, rather than being unable to enter due to their fallen condition. Therefore your assertion is false doctrine.

You had no answer for why God hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if as you repeatedly claim, they were unable to receive and understand the gospel as fallen men.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1, you simply repeat your Calvinism assertions endless, without any support. Matthew 23:13 has men entering heaven, so they were coming to an understanding sufficient to enter heaven. There were blocked, prevented from entering, rather than being unable to enter due to their fallen condition. Therefore your assertion is false doctrine.

You had no answer for why God hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if as you repeatedly claim, they were unable to receive and understand the gospel as fallen men.

you need to focus on the faithful remnant that God chose to save out of isreal, for they were the spiritual jews enabled by the Lord to recive jesus, all the rest left to stay in their rejection state!

 

[Loopie]

Loopie, why did you say I fail to see that any corporate group is made up of individuals? Did you not read where I specifically addresses this well know canard? A target group is made of of characteristics, not of individuals, for example a film targeted for teens would not be targeted for specific individual teens.

So, when God decreed that Christ would die, he simply decreed that he would die for ‘men in general’? This does not at all match up with what Paul says in Romans concerning the fact that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. God himself decreed that he would love Jacob and hate Esau (before any of them had done anything). What is your answer for that? Do you believe that God actually looked down the tunnel of time, saw what Esau would do, and then based his own eternal decree on the information that he had ‘gained’ from looking forward in time?

Consider also the following scripture:

Revelation 17:8 (NASB)
8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

So when scripture describes believers as having their name written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, how does that not refer to individuals? This is where you analogy of films breaks down. Films aren’t made by omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal beings. The only way to make the ‘film’ analogy fit into God’s plan of salvation is to bring God down to the level of a filmmaker (someone who is not omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal).

Why are you asking questions rather than citing specific scripture? I have answered all these questions over and over.

I have not seen you answer these questions using scripture. But that’s just me I guess.

Lets see if you are any different from the rest of the Calvinists. Do you agree with me that a corporately elected group can be characterized by general traits and not be specific to individuals. If you deny this, there is nothing that I can say because in my opinion you are arguing from irrationality.

But when you speak of corporate election, are you speaking of election by an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal being, or of election by human means? Don’t get me wrong, the corporately elected group known as ‘Christ’s sheep’ does have certain traits (i.e. they love God and their neighbor). But they have also had their name written in the lamb’s book of life before the foundation of the world (which means that God KNEW them before they were even born, and had decreed that THEY WOULD be his).

Like saying when God hardens a heart, what this really means is he has not softened it. Words have meanings.

I agree that words have meanings, and I feel that you are deviating from scripture’s meaning.

Next you ask if God foresaw who would believe and elected them individually. I already addressed that the election before time was corporate. If all you want to do is knock now your own strawman arguments, why address them to me?

But you fail to address what Revelation shows concerning the NAMES in the lamb’s book of life. Let me ask you this: did God KNOW which humans would be members of this corporately elected group known as ‘believers’? When did God KNOW this? Did he learn it, or did he know it in eternity past? Was this knowledge based on what God foresaw would take place in the future, or on his own ETERNAL DECREE?

And lastly just for grins, you said names are written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. This shows that you have not read Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 which indicates names are written from or since or after the foundation of the world. Therefore your argument proves individuals were not chosen before the foundation of the world. Now please agree with your own argument. If you evade, as I expect you will, there is nothing I can say.

I have already quoted Revelation 17:8. I will go ahead and quote Revelation 13:8:

Revelation 13:8 (NASB)
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

It seems to me in both these passages that believers are described as having their name written from the foundation of the world in the book of life. So how would you conclude that this means that names are written since or after the foundation of the world?

A fallen man, soil number 2, received the gospel with joy. Therefore he has some limited spiritual ability to understand the gospel and respond to be drawn by God with the lovingkindness of the gospel message. Therefore total spiritual inability is demonstrated false.

I know that you love to use the parable of the soils to argue against Calvinism, but I think you misinterpret the parable. First of all let me ask you this: Does a TRULY saved Christian bear fruit? Would you say that a truly saved person bears ‘good’ fruit? So which person in this parable bore any fruit or yield, at all? The fourth soil. There is nothing to suggest that soils 2 and 3 were truly believers.

Let me also ask you this: do you think EVERYONE that goes to church is a true believer? Is it even conceivable that a person who is still in rebellion against God would want to go to church? The reason I ask this is because it is clear that some unbelievers go to church, but are never truly saved. Are they doing this because they are gluttons for punishment? No. In fact, how many people are filled with JOY when they go to Joel Osteen’s church? Do you believe that ALL of them are true believers? So we see here that there are indeed false believers, false prophets, and false teachers amongst us. Some of them have received the word of God with joy, but it is never a lasting joy. It is a false joy, a false hope. The Lord makes it very clear that he will not LOSE any that have been given to him, that NONE will be plucked from his hand. If soils 2 and 3 were true believers, then obviously God’s will has been thwarted, and he has not kept his promise.

How would people believe they are saved and say Lord, Lord, if they had not heard the gospel, responded affirmatively to the gospel but their commitment was not from the heart and therefore God did not credit their faith as righteousness.

Obviously in Matthew 7:21 Christ says that not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven. So there are plenty of people such as Joel Osteen who say ‘Lord, Lord’. Does this mean they have been effectually called by the gospel, drawn to the Father, and have been truly saved? No not at all. God certainly will not credit their faith as righteousness, because their faith is not true faith (that is a gift from God as we see in Ephesians). Consider what James teaches about faith. There is indeed such a false faith (for even the demons believe in one God, and shudder). But TRUE faith is accompanied by GOOD FRUIT, which is only present in the FOURTH SOIL.

Calvinists claim that all fallen men hate God all the time, never at any time seek God, and so forth and so on, yet these folks were seeking God. Your doctrine is unbiblical.

You have completely misunderstood what Calvinism teaches. Rebellion against God can manifest itself in many ways. We have our hardcore, militant atheists such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. We have our ‘spiritual’ Buddhists and Hindus. We have both of our moderate and extremist Muslims. Are they all unbelievers? Yep. Are they all rebels against the Triune God of scripture? Yep. Are they all dead in their transgressions? Yep. So again, you misunderstand the doctrine of Total Depravity when you say that all fallen men must act and look exactly alike. That simply is not true, and has never been what Calvinism proclaimed.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, when God decreed that Christ would die, he simply decreed that he would die for ‘men in general’? This does not at all match up with what Paul says in Romans concerning the fact that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. God himself decreed that he would love Jacob and hate Esau (before any of them had done anything). What is your answer for that? Do you believe that God actually looked down the tunnel of time, saw what Esau would do, and then based his own eternal decree on the information that he had ‘gained’ from looking forward in time?

Consider also the following scripture:

Revelation 17:8 (NASB)
8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

So when scripture describes believers as having their name written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, how does that not refer to individuals? This is where you analogy of films breaks down. Films aren’t made by omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal beings. The only way to make the ‘film’ analogy fit into God’s plan of salvation is to bring God down to the level of a filmmaker (someone who is not omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal).



I have not seen you answer these questions using scripture. But that’s just me I guess.



But when you speak of corporate election, are you speaking of election by an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal being, or of election by human means? Don’t get me wrong, the corporately elected group known as ‘Christ’s sheep’ does have certain traits (i.e. they love God and their neighbor). But they have also had their name written in the lamb’s book of life before the foundation of the world (which means that God KNEW them before they were even born, and had decreed that THEY WOULD be his).



I agree that words have meanings, and I feel that you are deviating from scripture’s meaning.



But you fail to address what Revelation shows concerning the NAMES in the lamb’s book of life. Let me ask you this: did God KNOW which humans would be members of this corporately elected group known as ‘believers’? When did God KNOW this? Did he learn it, or did he know it in eternity past? Was this knowledge based on what God foresaw would take place in the future, or on his own ETERNAL DECREE?



I have already quoted Revelation 17:8. I will go ahead and quote Revelation 13:8:

Revelation 13:8 (NASB)
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

It seems to me in both these passages that believers are described as having their name written from the foundation of the world in the book of life. So how would you conclude that this means that names are written since or after the foundation of the world?

I know that you love to use the parable of the soils to argue against Calvinism, but I think you misinterpret the parable. First of all let me ask you this: Does a TRULY saved Christian bear fruit? Would you say that a truly saved person bears ‘good’ fruit? So which person in this parable bore any fruit or yield, at all? The fourth soil. There is nothing to suggest that soils 2 and 3 were truly believers.

Let me also ask you this: do you think EVERYONE that goes to church is a true believer? Is it even conceivable that a person who is still in rebellion against God would want to go to church? The reason I ask this is because it is clear that some unbelievers go to church, but are never truly saved. Are they doing this because they are gluttons for punishment? No. In fact, how many people are filled with JOY when they go to Joel Osteen’s church? Do you believe that ALL of them are true believers? So we see here that there are indeed false believers, false prophets, and false teachers amongst us. Some of them have received the word of God with joy, but it is never a lasting joy. It is a false joy, a false hope. The Lord makes it very clear that he will not LOSE any that have been given to him, that NONE will be plucked from his hand. If soils 2 and 3 were true believers, then obviously God’s will has been thwarted, and he has not kept his promise.



Obviously in Matthew 7:21 Christ says that not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven. So there are plenty of people such as Joel Osteen who say ‘Lord, Lord’. Does this mean they have been effectually called by the gospel, drawn to the Father, and have been truly saved? No not at all. God certainly will not credit their faith as righteousness, because their faith is not true faith (that is a gift from God as we see in Ephesians). Consider what James teaches about faith. There is indeed such a false faith (for even the demons believe in one God, and shudder). But TRUE faith is accompanied by GOOD FRUIT, which is only present in the FOURTH SOIL.



You have completely misunderstood what Calvinism teaches. Rebellion against God can manifest itself in many ways. We have our hardcore, militant atheists such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. We have our ‘spiritual’ Buddhists and Hindus. We have both of our moderate and extremist Muslims. Are they all unbelievers? Yep. Are they all rebels against the Triune God of scripture? Yep. Are they all dead in their transgressions? Yep. So again, you misunderstand the doctrine of Total Depravity when you say that all fallen men must act and look exactly alike. That simply is not true, and has never been what Calvinism proclaimed.

Welcome to the BB. You have correctly identified each error by using scripture,which is what we are to do:thumbsup::thumbsup:

You have also noticed that not everyone uses the scripture without changing the meaning:thumbsup:

 

[Yeshua1]

Loopie, why did you say I fail to see that any corporate group is made up of individuals? Did you not read where I specifically addresses this well know canard? A target group is made of of characteristics, not of individuals, for example a film targeted for teens would not be targeted for specific individual teens.

Why are you asking questions rather than citing specific scripture? I have answered all these questions over and over.

Lets see if you are any different from the rest of the Calvinists. Do you agree with me that a corporately elected group can be characterized by general traits and not be specific to individuals. If you deny this, there is nothing that I can say because in my opinion you are arguing from irrationality.

Like saying when God hardens a heart, what this really means is he has not softened it. Words have meanings.

Next you ask if God foresaw who would believe and elected them individually. I already addressed that the election before time was corporate. If all you want to do is knock now your own strawman arguments, why address them to me?

And lastly just for grins, you said names are written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. This shows that you have not read Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 which indicates names are written from or since or after the foundation of the world. Therefore your argument proves individuals were not chosen before the foundation of the world. Now please agree with your own argument. If you evade, as I expect you will, there is nothing I can say.

Why do some people accept jesus, while others reject him while hearing the same message by your theology than?