Why Arminianism can rot your bones

[Yeshua1]

No we do not all hold that Christ did not die for all mankind. Now we do all hold that only a limited group "receives the reconciliation" available to all mankind, but that is a far cry from the hidden doctrine you are pushing deceptively. Just look at it logically.

either God make SURE that ALL jesus died for and atoned for will get saved, or He did not, which sounds most logical to you?

The Arminian view that we put ourselves in Christ automatically when we believe in Christ, and therefore can also put ourselves out of Christ (forfeiting our salvation) by deciding to withdraw out faith in Christ seems "man-centered." But does this view actually represent the Arminian view or is it a Calvinist mischaracterization?

An elder who held to arminian salvation explained it to me this way!

though its true that God is securly holding/keeping us saved, he loves us so much that he still allows us the freedom to make a final decision to reject jesus, so we can take ourselves out from/of the grace of God!

So think that IF one really does hold to be able to lose their salvation due to God honoring their free will, that tells me that their free will was the basis of them getting saved, Not the Will and working of God!

 

[Van]

Yes, we are all well aware of how Calvinists view Arminianism, i.e. man-centered. What we are looking for is a first hand statement of an Arminian leaning poster! They hold at least two very different views, Classical foreseen faith election and the newer Corporate election. It is the detail of how exactly do they think they spiritually enter the body of Christ that I am seeking to discover.

But thus far, page 3, mum is the word.

 

[Van]

Either God make SURE that ALL Jesus died for and atoned for will get saved, or He did not, which sounds most logical to you?

Jesus died for all mankind to provide the opportunity and provision for salvation of all mankind. Then we God credits a person's autonomous faith as righteousness, God puts that person in Christ spiritually where they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death. This view has the advantage of being logical and consistent with all scripture. God desiring all men be saved yet Christ dying only for some men is illogical.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus died for all mankind to provide the opportunity and provision for salvation of all mankind. Then we God credits a person's autonomous faith as righteousness, God puts that person in Christ spiritually where they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death. This view has the advantage of being logical and consistent with all scripture.

except that NONE have the capability due to the fall of adam to actually being able to freely respond to jesus and get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, we are all well aware of how Calvinists view Arminianism, i.e. man-centered. What we are looking for is a first hand statement of an Arminian leaning poster! They hold at least two very different views, Classical foreseen faith election and the newer Corporate election. It is the detail of how exactly do they think they spiritually enter the body of Christ that I am seeking to discover.

But thus far, page 3, mum is the word.

Think problem is that FEW here even idenify with being arm!if not cal, they see it as being non cal!

Good "luck" getting that theolgy that is held defined!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you think about this logically...

Aren't all of us holding to "limited atonement?" in that only a limited number will have their sins forgiven and saved by the atonememnt regardless wether arm/cal/non cal?

if not limited in extent, then options would be Universalism, or else sinners atoned still going to hell?

That wasnt where I was taking it Yeshua but thats a good point. Here is another; If a person believes the efficacy & power of Christs atonement is limited....right.:smilewinkgrin: Isnt that a limited atonement?

 

[Van]

except that NONE have the capability due to the fall of adam to actually being able to freely respond to jesus and get saved!

Yet another false assertion, devoid of actual support in scripture. Yeshua1 simply repeats the doctrine and never addresses the verses that demonstrate it is false. Fallen men can understand the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Fallen men were entering heaven, Matthew 23:13.

Fallen men received the gospel with joy, Matthew 13:1-30

We all sin so there is none who are righteous, none who seek God when sinning or by the works of the Law. But the lost can seek God effectively through faith, Romans 9:30-33.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another false assertion, devoid of actual support in scripture. Yeshua1 simply repeats the doctrine and never addresses the verses that demonstrate it is false. Fallen men can understand the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Fallen men were entering heaven, Matthew 23:13.

Fallen men received the gospel with joy, Matthew 13:1-30

We all sin so there is none who are righteous, none who seek God when sinning or by the works of the Law. But the lost can seek God effectively through faith, Romans 9:30-33.

You mean like in Isreal among the jews when jesus came? That ONLY the faithful remnant that God had chosen to receive jesus actually were given 'ears" to hear and believe, rest stayed in the dark?

 

[Van]

Please address Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-30, and Romans 9:30-33.

All you do is ignore scripture and then present yet another made-up fictional assertion. Romans 11 does not say Jesus gave ears to the believing Jews, it says God hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews.

Anyone who reads Romans 11:4 can see that God chose to keep 7000 men who had not bowed to Baal. Again Calvinists read this as saying God kept the 7000 from bowing to Baal, but it actually reads that God choose to keep the 7000 who had been faithful, rather than cause their faithfulness. Yet another case of shoddy bible study.

 

[12strings]

Yet another false assertion, devoid of actual support in scripture. Yeshua1 simply repeats the doctrine and never addresses the verses that demonstrate it is false. Fallen men can understand the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Fallen men were entering heaven, Matthew 23:13.

Fallen men received the gospel with joy, Matthew 13:1-30

We all sin so there is none who are righteous, none who seek God when sinning or by the works of the Law. But the lost can seek God effectively through faith, Romans 9:30-33.

1 Cor. 3: These people were believers (infants in Christ, God's field, God's bulding, the temple of the holy Spirit)

Matt. 23:13 - No one is entering heaven in this verse...quite the opposite

Matt. 13 - This parable could be read with either a cal. or arm. perspective...we must go elsewhere.

Rom. 9:30-33 - One of many verses that speaks of coming to Christ through faith...the question is what is the origin of that faith....

Also, You are reading extra stuff into Rom. 3:10-11 that isn't there.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please address Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-30, and Romans 9:30-33.

All you do is ignore scripture and then present yet another made-up fictional assertion. Romans 11 does not say Jesus gave ears to the believing Jews, it says God hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews.

Anyone who reads Romans 11:4 can see that God chose to keep 7000 men who had not bowed to Baal. Again Calvinists read this as saying God kept the 7000 from bowing to Baal, but it actually reads that God choose to keep the 7000 who had been faithful, rather than cause their faithfulness. Yet another case of shoddy bible study.

God chose/select from out of faithless isreal a remnant group unto his name...

God was the One that chose them first, its NOT they accepted to follow the lord, as they were are hard heartened as all the rest of the Isrealites!

 

[Van]

Pitchback

1 Cor. 3: These people were believers (infants in Christ, God's field, God's bulding, the temple of the holy Spirit) The infants were being spoken to as men of flesh because they could not understand spiritual meat. Therefore men of flesh can understand spiritual milk.

Matt. 23:13 - No one is entering heaven in this verse...quite the opposite Scripture says the opposite, they were entering heaven. Just read the verse folks, just read it.

Matt. 13 - This parable could be read with either a cal. or arm. perspective...we must go elsewhere. More pay no attention to the man behind the curtain evasion, it reads that three of the four soils were receptive to the gospel, therefore total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Rom. 9:30-33 - One of many verses that speaks of coming to Christ through faith...the question is what is the origin of that faith.... We have been all through this, our faith provides our access to God's grace, Calvinism asserts the opposite of Romans 5:2 We are regenerated, born anew as children of God after we have believed, John 1:12-13

Also, You are reading extra stuff into Rom. 3:10-11 that isn't there.[/QUOTE]Somehow you missed that I said Calvinism adds "at any time" to the text, and I added "while we are sinning". But I justified my understanding because it does not create a conflict with Matthew 23:13 and Matthew 13:1-30

 

[Van]

God chose/select from out of faithless isreal a remnant group unto his name...

God was the One that chose them first, its NOT they accepted to follow the lord, as they were are hard heartened as all the rest of the Isrealites!

LOL!!!!!!

God chose to leave them, not enable them. Calvinists consistently rewrite scripture to pour their false doctrines into it. The 7000 were obedient, and did not bow, so God chose to leave them alive.

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL!!!!!!

God chose to leave them, not enable them. Calvinists consistently rewrite scripture to pour their false doctrines into it. The 7000 were obedient, and did not bow, so God chose to leave them alive.

because He reserves/preserved them out!

 

[Van]

because He reserves/preserved them out!

The scriptures are clear, God choose to save existing men whose faith God credited as righteousness. You can rewrite it till the cows come home, but anyone who can read can read Romans 11 and see that fallen men have hearts that can trust in Christ, and that must be hardened to preclude trusting in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

The scriptures are clear, God choose to save existing men whose faith God credited as righteousness. You can rewrite it till the cows come home, but anyone who can read can read Romans 11 and see that fallen men have hearts that can trust in Christ, and that must be hardened to preclude trusting in Christ.

Jesus Himself said that ONLY those whom the Father gave Him shall be saved, that the lord has to open up their hearts.minds in order to have them respond by placing faith in Christ!

Sinners cannot come to Jesus apart from the work of the Holy Spirit applied to them in order to have them received jesus and conform their election from God as being sure!

 

[Van]

Jesus Himself said that ONLY those whom the Father gave Him shall be saved, that the lord has to open up their hearts.minds in order to have them respond by placing faith in Christ!

Sinners cannot come to Jesus apart from the work of the Holy Spirit applied to them in order to have them received jesus and conform their election from God as being sure!

Yeshua1 never stops making assertions without biblical references. Does the Lord have to open folks hearts and minds with His revelatory grace in order for them to respond? Yes. Does God need to alter them with irresistible grace? No, and shown again and again and again. Matthew 13:1-30 teaches 3 or 4 kinds of people have the ability to respond affirmatively to the milk of the gospel. Paul teaches men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. Matthew 23:13 tells of men entering heaven, thus being able to respond successfully, but then they are blocked, showing whatever grace they received in order for them to respond was not irresistible.

The scriptures are clear, God chooses to save existing men whose faith God credited as righteousness. You can rewrite it till the cows come home, but anyone who can read can read Romans 11 and see that fallen men have hearts that can trust in Christ, and that must be hardened to preclude trusting in Christ.

Calvinism cannot be defended, so its acolytes simply repeat unreferenced assertions, in effect demonstrating they have no biblical support.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1 never stops making assertions without biblical references. Does the Lord have to open folks hearts and minds with His revelatory grace in order for them to respond? Yes. Does God need to alter them with irresistible grace? No, and shown again and again and again. Matthew 13:1-30 teaches 3 or 4 kinds of people have the ability to respond affirmatively to the milk of the gospel. Paul teaches men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. Matthew 23:13 tells of men entering heaven, thus being able to respond successfully, but then they are blocked, showing whatever grace they received in order for them to respond was not irresistible.

The scriptures are clear, God chooses to save existing men whose faith God credited as righteousness. You can rewrite it till the cows come home, but anyone who can read can read Romans 11 and see that fallen men have hearts that can trust in Christ, and that must be hardened to preclude trusting in Christ.

Calvinism cannot be defended, so its acolytes simply repeat unreferenced assertions, in effect demonstrating they have no biblical support.

Did the fall of Adam produce spiritual death to all men, or not?

 

[MB]

Yeshua1 never stops making assertions without biblical references. Does the Lord have to open folks hearts and minds with His revelatory grace in order for them to respond? Yes. Does God need to alter them with irresistible grace? No, and shown again and again and again. Matthew 13:1-30 teaches 3 or 4 kinds of people have the ability to respond affirmatively to the milk of the gospel. Paul teaches men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. Matthew 23:13 tells of men entering heaven, thus being able to respond successfully, but then they are blocked, showing whatever grace they received in order for them to respond was not irresistible.

The scriptures are clear, God chooses to save existing men whose faith God credited as righteousness. You can rewrite it till the cows come home, but anyone who can read can read Romans 11 and see that fallen men have hearts that can trust in Christ, and that must be hardened to preclude trusting in Christ.

Calvinism cannot be defended, so its acolytes simply repeat unreferenced assertions, in effect demonstrating they have no biblical support.

A men Van.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

A men Van.
MB

too bad that he cannot show why sinners cannot com to the Lord in and by themselves, for it is the work of God!