Why Calvinism preaches a fraudulent gospel to some of the lost.

[Silverhair]

The doctrine of universalism such a God would neither be Just nor truly merciful. You see under universalism neither justice or mercy matters.

That was just a heading I put on that post. If you listened to Friel & Washer{Calvinists} you would hear them make and offer that IF they would repent & trust in Christ Jesus etc. I do not hold to universalism as my posts have clearly shown.

 

[Yeshua1]

Mark 16:15, ". . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Calvinist view point of Limited Atonement means for those who never believe the good news it was never really good news because, Limited Atonement means Christ never really died for them that never would believe, and that is why they do not believe.

They are choosing to disbelieve the good news, due to their own desires and desires, not due to Jesus not dying for them!

 

[Yeshua1]

Don't you mean the same free will the Reformers attacked that is found in scripture? Calvinists try to teach that man does not have a free will because God is sovereign. But that is a rather strange view of sovereign which Calvinists have. They seem incapable of grasping the reality that:

God is sovereign over his sovereignty.
To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.
God is no less sovereign in a world where he chooses to grant his creatures libertarian freedom than he is in a world where he determines everything.

You seem to think that we Calvinists deny free will, we affirm it, but that the free will of lost sinners bound by sin natures, and are not free to choose other then what their natures allow for!

 

[Silverhair]

You seem to think that we Calvinists deny free will, we affirm it, but that the free will of lost sinners bound by sin natures, and are not free to choose other then what their natures allow for!

But according g to your Calvinism God determines all things. How does that not include man having a sin nature? And since it is determined by God why are they judged for what they do. Your determinism is a trap of your own making.

 

[AustinC]

That teaching is based on such passages as Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . ." But the notion of man having a "free will" is found in the ASV, Philemon 1:14, ". . . but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will. . . ."

Thank you for showing us how a verse can be taken out of context and forced to mean something the author is not meaning.
Here is the text. Note that it has nothing to do with salvation by virtue of free will. It only shows that in some areas God allows us choice as it fits within the full will of God.
Philemon 1:10-16 I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, no longer as a bondservant but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

Notice that Philemon is the Master over Onesimus. Onesimus is bound to Philemon and Philemon has the God-given choice in this matter regarding what will happen to Onesimus. Yet Paul makes appeal as he considers that God has a much bigger purpose in redeeming Onesimus. Therefore, Paul places Onesimus on equal footing with Philemon and urges Philemon to recognize this as well.
On this earth, Philemon had the authority (capacity) to decide Onesimus fate, but Paul reminds Philemon that God has authority over all, so Philemon should therefore grant clemency to Onesimus for the sake of the gospel, which overrides earthly authority.

This interaction has, therefore, nothing to do with the capacity of men to choose their own salvaion by virtue of free will. Just look at Onesimus who is still bound in slavery. He has no capacity to be free of his bonds to Philemon simply because he wants to remain with Paul.

 

[Silverhair]

They are choosing to disbelieve the good news, due to their own desires and desires, not due to Jesus not dying for them!

But are not those desires something that God gives them? According to your determinism it is.

 

[Yeshua1]

But according g to your Calvinism God determines all things. How does that not include man having a sin nature? And since it is determined by God why are they judged for what they do. Your determinism is a trap of your own making.

I am not a Hyper calvinist, as God does not directly determine all things as you seem to assume we hold to!

 

[Yeshua1]

But are not those desires something that God gives them? According to your determinism it is.

No, its what they desire to do themselves, God is not forcing them to reject!

 

[AustinC]

The Bible teaches that God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He decided that man will choose to either respond to the gospel and receive it or reject it.

Let me ask you, do you also accuse the receiver of a birthday gift of being at least partly responsible for giving himself the birthday gift simply because he reached out and took it from the giver and took possession of it?

Cause and effect.
God chose to give a particular free gift to the one whom he chooses to have mercy. (Cause)

The person receiving the free gift responds in repentance and belief, taking hold of the gift by faith. (Effect)

This is the Reformed understanding of salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

Thank you for showing us how a verse can be taken out of context and forced to mean something the author is not meaning.
Here is the text. Note that it has nothing to do with salvation by virtue of free will. It only shows that in some areas God allows us choice as it fits within the full will of God.
Philemon 1:10-16 I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, no longer as a bondservant but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

Notice that Philemon is the Master over Onesimus. Onesimus is bound to Philemon and Philemon has the God-given choice in this matter regarding what will happen to Onesimus. Yet Paul makes appeal as he considers that God has a much bigger purpose in redeeming Onesimus. Therefore, Paul places Onesimus on equal footing with Philemon and urges Philemon to recognize this as well.
On this earth, Philemon had the authority (capacity) to decide Onesimus fate, but Paul reminds Philemon that God has authority over all, so Philemon should therefore grant clemency to Onesimus for the sake of the gospel, which overrides earthly authority.

This interaction has, therefore, nothing to do with the capacity of men to choose their own salvaion by virtue of free will. Just look at Onesimus who is still bound in slavery. He has no capacity to be free of his bonds to Philemon simply because he wants to remain with Paul.

>>but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord.<< Does that mean that someone {Philemon} had the ability to make a choice? That would be free will.
Even though God has authority over all you will note that Paul still say Philemon still has the ability to make a choice. He has a free will.
I find it strange that you think God would grant man the ability to make such minor choices and yet when it comes to their eternal future they are not able to do that. You keep showing your stilted view of Gods' sovereignty..

 

[Silverhair]

No, its what they desire to do themselves, God is not forcing them to reject!

You keep failing to account for your determinism and your view of Gods' sovereignty. If God, as Calvinists say, controls all things then that must mean all things. You want to avoid what your errant view leads to but think it through.

 

[37818]

I do not hold to universalism . . . .

I never thought so. But the question, in my mind, deserved a comment.

 

[37818]

The simple truth is the gospel call being given to all mankind per Mark 16:15. From the view of a solely limited atonment leaves for of the many, who do not respond to believe the gospel, having to have been given [from our finite view] not a genuine offer. One Calvinist view point being that that limited atonement is really there for those who believe. So it does come down to what is actually true. Our belief or nonbeleif in what is actually true is not going to change it.

 

[37818]

The simple truth is the gospel call being given to all mankind per Mark 16:15. From the view of a solely limited atonment leaves for of the many, who do not respond to believe the gospel, having to have been given [from our finite view] not a genuine offer. One Calvinist view point being that that limited atonement is really there for those who believe. So it does come down to what is actually true. Our belief or nonbeleif in what is actually true is not going to change it.

Romans 5:8, ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."
1 Corinthians 15:3-4, ". . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "
The problem being the "we," "us" and "our" does not apply to the perishing in the solely Limited Atonement view. Making for the lost those statement not ever being true.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Mark 16:15, ". . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Calvinist view point of Limited Atonement means for those who never believe the good news it was never really good news because, Limited Atonement means Christ never really died for them that never would believe, and that is why they do not believe.

While I believe that Jesus Christ has died for the entire human race. I don't believe that it is Biblical to say that the Atonement is universal. This term means that the sinner is reconciled with the Lord, but this cannot take place until the sinner first repents of their sins, and believes in the Gospel of Jesus Christ

 

[Yeshua1]

Was the Cross of Christ intended by God then to save all sinners? was it a real or a potential salvation ?

 

[AustinC]

While I believe that Jesus Christ has died for the entire human race. I don't believe that it is Biblical to say that the Atonement is universal. This term means that the sinner is reconciled with the Lord, but this cannot take place until the sinner first repents of their sins, and believes in the Gospel of Jesus Christ

Salvation by works apart from grace.
Why is it that you place the cause of salvation with men and relegate God to the effect of man's choice?
The cause of salvation is God's choice to be both gracious and merciful. The effect is our repentance and belief.

Give God the glory due his name, sbg.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Was the Cross of Christ intended by God then to save all sinners? was it a real or a potential salvation ?

Biblically the latter, theologically according to some, the former

 

[SavedByGrace]

Salvation by works apart from grace.
Why is it that you place the cause of salvation with men and relegate God to the effect of man's choice?
The cause of salvation is God's choice to be both gracious and merciful. The effect is our repentance and belief.

Give God the glory due his name, sbg.

Hey Austin, have you ever read Mark 1.15, Acts 2.37-38?

 

[AustinC]

Hey Austin, have you ever read Mark 1.15, Acts 2.37-38?

Yes I have.
Let's look at how you fail to understand.
Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Jesus comes to Covenant Israel, the people He chose out from all other peoples, and he tells his chosen to repent and believe in the good news that the prophets gave and Jesus came to fulfill. Context, context, context.
Acts 2:33-39 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Read this, over and over until it sinks in. Peter is talking to the Covenant people and telling them to repent. Moreso, he tells them (and us) that this promise of the Holy Spirit is for the children of the promise, everyone whom Jesus calls to himself. (See John 10 to know what Peter is referencing)

Now, may I ask you if you have ever read the entire Bible and understood the whole narrative of covenant redemption?