Why did not God perform miracles in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom?

[Van]

Careful, you will blow his non-Calvinist mind.

Ready to have Calvinist minds blown? Jesus says, and He is always spot on, that if there had been more witness of miracles in other cities, more would have come to repentance. Now put your thinking caps on!

If only those chosen before creation could come to repentance through irresistible grace, the number would not increase by seeing more miracles. Either Jesus got it wrong, and He did not, or Calvinism is wrong.

The more you study scripture, the more you find bogus about Calvinism. The gift of faith and irresistible grace are clearly shown to be bogus by Matthew 11:20-24.

 

[kyredneck]

he did not let the cup pass from Him

7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5

He was heard. God indeed did let the cup pass from Him, He saved Him from death by raising Him from the dead.

Compare v 39:

39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

With v 53:

53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?

...and know that Christ COULD HAVE circumvented the cross simply by asking, but that's not what He was requesting in v 39.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. Jn 12

….and God glorified Him again by raising Him from the dead:

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Ps 16

 

[Reformed1689]

7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5

He was heard. God indeed did let the cup pass from Him, He saved Him from death by raising Him from the dead.

Compare v 39:

39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

With v 53:

53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?

...and know that Christ COULD HAVE circumvented the cross simply by asking, but that's not what He was requesting in v 39.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. Jn 12

….and God glorified Him again by raising Him from the dead:

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Ps 16

Christ was not saved from death. He DID DIE. He Conquered death by raising from the dead. There is a difference.

 

[Reformed1689]

If only those chosen before creation could come to repentance through irresistible grace, the number would not increase by seeing more miracles. Either Jesus got it wrong, and He did not, or Calvinism is wrong.

And Jesus did not let them see those miracles because they were not chosen to see them. Try again.

 

[kyredneck]

Christ was not saved from death. He DID DIE. He Conquered death by raising from the dead. There is a difference.

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared"

So after comparing v 39 with v 53 you still think Christ was asking to avoid the cross?

 

[Reformed1689]

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared"

So after comparing v 39 with v 53 you still think Christ was asking to avoid the cross?

Oh I think it was much deeper than that. I think he wanted to avoid becoming sin for us, the forsaking of the Father, the ramifications and the agony (both physical and spiritual) that would come with the whole process.

 

[kyredneck]

Oh I think it was much deeper than that. I think he wanted to avoid becoming sin for us, the forsaking of the Father, the ramifications and the agony (both physical and spiritual) that would come with the whole process.

You got scripture that says all that?

 

[Van]

And Jesus did not let them see those miracles because they were not chosen to see them. Try again.

Yet another deflection using absurdity. Jesus said if they saw more miracles, more would have repented, which proves repentance is not compelled by irresistible grace, because in the Calvinist scheme of things, people do not repent because they become persuaded. Calvinism falsely claims they all hate God and would not respond to two miracles or twenty miracles. Calvinism once again has been shown by scripture to be as bogus as a three dollar bill.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another deflection using absurdity. Jesus said if they saw more miracles, more would have repented, which proves repentance is not compelled by irresistible grace, because in the Calvinist scheme of things, people do not repent because they become persuaded. Calvinism falsely claims they all hate God and would not respond to two miracles or twenty miracles. Calvinism once again has been shown by scripture to be as bogus as a three dollar bill.

That doesn't prove ANYTHING. The only thing that proves is that those people were not granted the grace to see those miracles.

 

[Van]

That doesn't prove ANYTHING. The only thing that proves is that those people were not granted the grace to see those miracles.

Calvinism has been demonstrated to be bogus, and its acolytes post taint so. What a waste!

Jesus said if they saw more miracles, more would have repented, which proves repentance is not compelled by irresistible grace, because in the Calvinist scheme of things, people do not repent because they become persuaded. Calvinism falsely claims they all hate God and would not respond to two miracles or twenty miracles. Calvinism once again has been shown by scripture to be as bogus as a three dollar bill.

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinism has been demonstrated to be bogus, and its acolytes post taint so. What a waste!

How?

Jesus said if they saw more miracles, more would have repented, which proves repentance is not compelled by irresistible grace, because in the Calvinist scheme of things, people do not repent because they become persuaded.

That doesn't prove what you claim. Do you believe God orchestrates the encounters people have with the Gospel? I do. He clearly did not allow them to see the miracles because he was not drawing them to himself. They were not given a measure of grace.

 

[Van]

How?
That doesn't prove what you claim. Do you believe God orchestrates the encounters people have with the Gospel? I do. He clearly did not allow them to see the miracles because he was not drawing them to himself. They were not given a measure of grace.

More deflection, according to Jesus, if they had seen the miracles, they would have repented, thus persuaded by witnessing. Your doctrine has been shown to be bogus.

Jesus says, and He is always spot on, that if there had been more witness of miracles in other cities, more would have come to repentance.

If only those chosen before creation could come to repentance through irresistible grace, the number would not increase by seeing more miracles. The result would be the same whether they saw two miracles or twenty miracles. Either Jesus got it wrong, and He did not, or Calvinism is wrong.

The more you study scripture, the more you find bogus about Calvinism. The gift of faith and irresistible grace are clearly shown to be bogus by Matthew 11:20-24.

 

[Reformed1689]

More deflection, according to Jesus, if they had seen the miracles, they would have repented, thus persuaded by witnessing. Your doctrine has been shown to be bogus.

Jesus says, and He is always spot on, that if there had been more witness of miracles in other cities, more would have come to repentance.

If only those chosen before creation could come to repentance through irresistible grace, the number would not increase by seeing more miracles. The result would be the same whether they saw two miracles or twenty miracles. Either Jesus got it wrong, and He did not, or Calvinism is wrong.

The more you study scripture, the more you find bogus about Calvinism. The gift of faith and irresistible grace are clearly shown to be bogus by Matthew 11:20-24.

The fact that you can't see that this doesn't actually contradict the doctrines of grace is astounding. I'm secure in what I believe, and it's not bogus. For one thing, you don't understand what the Doctrines of Grace actually are as you have clearly demonstrated. Not really sure what you believe about anything because you rarely make any sense. I'm done going back and forth with you on this topic since you just copy/paste the same thing over and over again without actually giving adequate rebuttals and replies. Waste of time.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

One reason Jesus didn't perform miracles in Tyre, etc. was because, humanly speaking, He was a Jew, & had been sent to the Jews first. God had chosen the Jews to spread the Gospel, and, after the levites had joined the Jews in Jeroboam's time, to be the chroniclers & preservers of His written word.

While Jesus saved some non-Jewish people, His ministry was to the Jews. Paul was the first minister to spread the Gospel extensively to gentiles.

BINGO!
That is the simple answer to the question.

 

[Van]

Summary:
1) God does not treat everyone the same, He has mercy on whom He has mercy.
2) It is not unfair to have mercy on some and provide perfect justice to everyone else.
3) People are able to respond to the witness of the gospel, with or without being supported by miracles.
4) People afforded a greater persuasion (seeing miracles) but rejecting God's promise will suffer more than those not afforded that greater persuasion.
5) The passage, Matthew 11:20-24, demonstrates (a) people are able to respond to God's revelation, and (b) the more seed planted and watered, the more converts.

 

[Dave G]

Ready to have Calvinist minds blown? Jesus says, and He is always spot on, that if there had been more witness of miracles in other cities, more would have come to repentance. Now put your thinking caps on!

Jesus says, and He is always spot on, that if the miracles done in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum had been done in the cities of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom they would have repented.

This was because Israel, as a nation, had hardened their hearts further against God's revelation ( Matthew 13:13-15, Acts of the Apostles 28:27 ).
The miracles being done by the Lord would have been received in places like Nineveh, to whom God sent the prophet Jonah...

But that in no way means that men can trigger the process of the new birth by performing an act.
The new birth is not by man's will, but by God's will ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
It is entirely contrary to the desires of men ( Romans 9:16 ).

Now put your thinking caps on!

Take off the "thinking caps", stop subjecting the words of God to human "logic", and believe them as they are ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).
Trust the very words on the page, and His Spirit to show you the understanding of them.

If only those chosen before creation could come to repentance through irresistible grace, the number would not increase by seeing more miracles.

The number of the elect ( true believers, Christ's "sheep" ) is determined by God, not by men.
The idea that man's actions can influence God to save someone, is not found anywhere in His word.
But I see men trying, all the time, to piece parts of His word together in a vain attempt to show that man's actions and will can influence the outcome of who is saved...

That would be works ( man's efforts ) not grace ( God's efforts ), and be in violation of Romans 11:5-6.

 

[Dave G]

Summary:
1) God does not treat everyone the same, He has mercy on whom He has mercy.
2) It is not unfair to have mercy on some and provide perfect justice to everyone else.
3) People are able to respond to the witness of the gospel, with or without being supported by miracles.
4) People afforded a greater persuasion (seeing miracles) but rejecting God's promise will suffer more than those not afforded that greater persuasion.
5) The passage, Matthew 11:20-24, demonstrates (a) people are able to respond to God's revelation, and (b) the more seed planted and watered, the more converts.

1) I agree. See Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19.
2) I agree. See the above, plus Acts of the Apostles 10:34, Romans 2:11.
3) I agree. But without the Holy Spirit's intervention ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), none will respond. The preaching of the cross is, to them that perish, foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ), but to us which are saved, it is the power of God.
4) Agreed. Men are held responsible to obey God, especially in the light of greater revelation. The nation of Israel is the prime example of this. Still, men are stubborn, love sin and will not repent ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10:1-11, Psalms 53 ). Repentance has to be granted ( Acts of the Apostles 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25-26 ).
5) a) They do respond, when He decides to reveal Himself to them ( Matthew 11:25, Matthew 11:27, Matthew 16:17, Acts of the Apostles 9:3-6, Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
b) The more seed planted and watered by God ( Matthew 13:18-23, 1 Corinthians 3:6-7 ), the more people truly believe ( Acts of the Apostles 2:47 ).
Only as many as were ordained to eternal life, believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

The more you study scripture, the more you find bogus about Calvinism. The gift of faith and irresistible grace are clearly shown to be bogus by Matthew 11:20-24.

The more I study Scripture, and not the teaching of men like John Calvin, the more I find, like a diamond that keeps showing its facets, that God's electing grace permeates the Bible everywhere.

His choice to reveal Himself to someone, and hide Himself from others, show that He does exactly as He pleases ( Daniel 4:35 ), instead of willingly subjecting Himself to the thoughts and ways of men, and allowing Himself to be limited by our expectations of Him.

Again, the more I study Scripture, the more evidence is found that puts the grace of God squarely within His hands to dispense as He pleases.

Not as we please.

Man is not a "free moral agent" that can be influenced to "put their faith and trust" in Him by miracles...but we will respond in amazement and "repent" ( for awhile ) in the face of supernatural miracles and in the face of certain destruction.
Israel, as a nation, was able and willing to do this under the Law of Moses for a time...but they, as a nation, couldn't keep their "end up"...they had no "staying power".

Why?

Because they were spiritually dead inside, the way all of us are apart from God's grace.
That spiritual deadness carries over into our every thought, desire, etc.

But we can still respond to "stimuli" like miracles, benefits and overwhelming threats, if it suits our purposes.
Penal institutions are filled to overflowing every day with people willing to "walk the straight and narrow" and get out of prison early due to "good behavior".
All men can be influenced to do something drastic by the supernatural, or in the face of certain death, because of the fear of death...

Example:
"There are no atheists in foxholes."

The new birth?
That is what it takes for repentance to "stick", and that is something that only God can do;
But He doesn't do it for everyone ( Matthew 7:14 ).


May God's grace be shown to you, in both large ways and small, throughout your life.

 

[Van]

Jesus says, and He is always spot on, that if the miracles done in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum had been done in the cities of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom they would have repented.

This was because Israel, as a nation, had hardened their hearts further against God's revelation ( Matthew 13:13-15, Acts of the Apostles 28:27 ).
The miracles being done by the Lord would have been received in places like Nineveh, to whom God sent the prophet Jonah...

But that in no way means that men can trigger the process of the new birth by performing an act.
The new birth is not by man's will, but by God's will ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
He does it by His own will, contrary to the desires of men ( Romans 9:16 ).

Take off the "thinking caps", stop subjecting the words of God to human "logic", and believe them as they are ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).
Trust the very words on the page, and His Spirit to show you the understanding of them.

The number of the elect is determined by God, not by men.
The idea that man's actions can influence God to save someone, is not found in His word.

That would be works ( man's efforts ) not grace ( God's efforts ), and be in violation of Romans 11:5-6.

The more I study Scripture, and not the teaching of men like John Calvin, the more I find, like a diamond that keeps showing its facets, that God's electing grace permeates it everywhere.

His choice to reveal Himself to someone, and hide Himself from others, show that He does exactly as He pleases ( Daniel 4:35 ), instead of willingly subjecting Himself to the thoughts and ways of men, and allowing Himself to be limited by our expectations of Him.

Who said "trigger the process of rebirth?" No one! Why, folks, must we deal with strawman arguments, rather than the actual issues in dispute?

So lets skip down to the actual dispute!

The idea that man's actions can influence God to save someone, is not found in His word.

Obviously a blatant falsehood of gigantic scale. John 3:16 anyone. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life!

Next another blatant falsehood, claiming salvation through faith is a salvation through works. Romans 4:4-5 anyone. Faith is not works.

Calvinism can be found no where in scripture, it is a man-made doctrine read into scripture.

 

[MartyF]

Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

If Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, would have repented had such mighty works been done in them, then why did not God perform such mighty works? By no means do I doubt the goodness and mercy of my Saviour, I am just seeking to understand his reasoning, in as much as it possible for me to understand. Most answers I have read simply dodge the issue or end up begging the same question.
I am thinking that God is under no obligation to further reveal himself past the minimum he gives to every man, even if that further revelation could save him.
Please support each claim with scripture. Thank you

Because God is living. He’s not some dead god who set up the entire timeline at one instant and hence can’t change anything since the timeline is set in stone like the idols describes in Isaiah 40-48.

Jesus is right there at that time. He’s thinking back to the events which the people he is talking to would know about - Sodom, Tyre, and Capernaum. I’m sure he could have listed others throughout the world but he chose the ones they would know about. He is discussing how he feels that he could have had better success choosing a different people. The Jews were being very stubborn just like Richard Dawkins who said that even if miracles were performed in front of him, he wouldn’t believe.

Jesus knows that the Gentiles will respond because he travels through Samaria and sees the response.

So what did Jesus do? He sends Paul. He looks around. He finds a highly talented Jew. Paul has lived with the Gentiles, but he knows the Old Testament scripture by heart and is trained by a one of the most learned Rabbis. In addition, he is an excellent Leader. To top it off, he is a polyglot. So Jesus comes down and does divine intervention to give Paul a mission to save the Gentiles.

If you look at it from the understanding that the God described in the Old and New Testament doesn’t set up the timeline in stone and can do anything else but instead lives with us then what happened makes sense.

Otherwise, one is stuck with saying that God is unknowable and his actions can therefore not be explained.

 

[Dave G]

Who said "trigger the process of rebirth?" No one! Why, folks, must we deal with strawman arguments, rather than the actual issues in dispute?

Van,
I've interacted for years with people who teach "Arminianism", or anything that even closely resembles it.
The end of their reasoning always comes back around to what man can do for God, and not what God does for man.
You're not the first person I've seen, who seems to advocate that the gift of the new birth can in some way, be influenced apart from God's independent choice of a sinner to salvation.

That is why I make the statements that I make...whether or not you actually make them.
On a side note, you do the same thing, even if you don't realize it.

It's not "strawman", it's experience.
For example, those who advocate loss of salvation, can be said to base their salvation on their own efforts...even if they deny that their efforts are what keeps them saved.
They still deny 1 Peter 1:5.

In the final analysis, that is the doctrinal end of their teachings.
Works.
in the same way, the doctrinal end of man's will being the determiner of who is saved and who is not, places the new birth as a cooperative effort...not an operative one.

So lets skip down to the actual dispute!

Let's.

Obviously a blatant falsehood of gigantic scale. John 3:16 anyone. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life!

A declaration and a promise, not a "requirement that can be met" by sinful men apart from the grace and mercy of God.
John 3:16 implies nothing...it declares several things, one of which is that only those that believe, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

May I suggest, that if you're going to use John 3:16, try using it in its proper context?
With these:

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalms 5:5 )
" The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts." ( Psalms 10:4 )
" The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." ( Psalms 11:5 ).

Who believes, apart from God's grace, Van?
No one.

Psalms 65:4.

Next another blatant falsehood, claiming salvation through faith is a salvation through works. Romans 4:4-5 anyone. Faith is not works.

Precisely.
Faith is the antithesis of works.

Yet, not everyone has faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
Why?
Can you find a Scriptural declaration that says why one man has "saving faith", and yet another does not?

I can.