Why do Arminians have such a small view of God?

[Don]

Don't you love it, oldest "trick", instead of answering, they find a variant in your writing, change it to that as they can't answer the other

Oh, please. The "trick" is a teaching step to emphasize the importance of spelling. It's the same as using the correct version of its or it's; or the proper placement of a comma. Poor usage causes confusion; and there's enough of that already with people emphasizing and trying to place themselves and others in theological camps.

If you want to turn it into an ad hominem or re-direct, feel feel.

 

[Don]

Hey at least the man is honest, good for you, of course disagree with you 100%, but Classic Arminianism is very close, as you know, to Calvinism, those on this board are Semi/full Pelagians. I'm curious as to how you came to this view, very few Calvinists know what Classical Arminianism is. You might be someone I can debate, you appear honest, know what you're talking about, etc. When I say "Debate", I mean more of a scholarly, respectful debate, none of this back and forth let's see who can hit who fastest. Perhaps it would give everyone a good example, since they clearly won't do their own study!

I typically don't get into these discussions, and am already regretting having done so this time. They all-too-often devolve into "you're not reformed so you're not truly saved" or "you're calvinist, so you must think God has already saved everyone He's gonna save."

 

[rockytopva]

This particular Arminian has a rather large view of God...

 

[padredurand]

In talking with some Arminians on this board, I have noticed they consistently state that God has purposely placed His will in subordination under man's will.

They claim this is God's will, which is to be unable to change the heart of men without man's full consent. They claim that any overriding of man's will is tantamount to enslaving humans and making them puppets of God.

This castrates God's Sovereignty and makes God a mere advisor and places each man as the sovereign ruler of his/her own dominion.

Why would a Christian want God to be so small?

I have been here well over a decade. I could count on one hand the number of people who claimed, "...God has purposely placed His will in subordination under man's will." The only thing "castrated" here is an understanding, whether by intention or ignorance, of the historic Arminian position on the will of man in regards to his salvation.

10. Saving faith is that of the elect of God; it is not the faith of all men, of perverse and wicked men, not of those who repel the word of grace, and account themselves unworthy of life eternal, not of those who resist the Holy Spirit, not of those who reject the counsel of God against themselves, nor of those who have not been ordained to life eternal. No man believes in Christ except he has been previously disposed and prepared, by preventing or preceding grace, to receive life eternal on that condition on which God wills to bestow it, according to the following passage of Scripture: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17.) ~ James Arminius

 

[Calv1]

Oh, please. The "trick" is a teaching step to emphasize the importance of spelling. It's the same as using the correct version of its or it's; or the proper placement of a comma. Poor usage causes confusion; and there's enough of that already with people emphasizing and trying to place themselves and others in theological camps.

If you want to turn it into an ad hominem or re-direct, feel feel.

Really? Then where is your reply? Watch, guaranteed instead of answering he'll try to devolve it into a debate unrelated to the post, they have NOTHING, no Arminian can win a biblical debate against me, period, NNE.

 

[Calv1]

I have been here well over a decade. I could count on one hand the number of people who claimed, "...God has purposely placed His will in subordination under man's will." The only thing "castrated" here is an understanding, whether by intention or ignorance, of the historic Arminian position on the will of man in regards to his salvation.

What a way to argue! Of course they don't SAY IT, but it's the result if you think of their position.

 

[Calv1]

I typically don't get into these discussions, and am already regretting having done so this time. They all-too-often devolve into "you're not reformed so you're not truly saved" or "you're calvinist, so you must think God has already saved everyone He's gonna save."

I agree with you, serious over a decade debating, hearing the same things, I ask myself "What are you doing", I agree, it gets tiring and often devolves. Going to try to discipline myself and stay off the boards! Thanks

 

[Reynolds]

In talking with some Arminians on this board, I have noticed they consistently state that God has purposely placed His will in subordination under man's will.

They claim this is God's will, which is to be unable to change the heart of men without man's full consent. They claim that any overriding of man's will is tantamount to enslaving humans and making them puppets of God.

This castrates God's Sovereignty and makes God a mere advisor and places each man as the sovereign ruler of his/her own dominion.

Why would a Christian want God to be so small?

I serve a Huge God. You have to look at why God created man. He did not need nor did he want another class of puppets. He wanted a spirit being who had the ability to freely choose to live Him or freely choose to reject Him.

 

[Reynolds]

What a way to argue! Of course they don't SAY IT, but it's the result if you think of their position.

That is kind of like boiling Calvinism down so far that one says, God told Adam not to eat of the tree and then God made him eat of the tree.

 

[Rob_BW]

What do you think MennoSota does this poem explain it, that's the only answer I can come up with... Brother Glen

Invictus by William Earnest Henley

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate,
I am the Captain of my Soul.

I cannot claim to know your intent, but posting this poem in this manner appears to me to be a statement that an Amrinians theology is basically unbelief.

 

[MennoSota]

I have been here well over a decade. I could count on one hand the number of people who claimed, "...God has purposely placed His will in subordination under man's will." The only thing "castrated" here is an understanding, whether by intention or ignorance, of the historic Arminian position on the will of man in regards to his salvation.

Thanks for sharing. Arminius creates a mythical "preceeding grace" theory that men are free to accept or reject. Unfortunately there is no biblical teaching about "preceeding grace."

 

[MennoSota]

I serve a Huge God. You have to look at why God created man. He did not need nor did he want another class of puppets. He wanted a spirit being who had the ability to freely choose to live Him or freely choose to reject Him.

Where do you find that in the Bible, Reynolds? I would be interested in that passage.

 

[Crabtownboy]

In talking with some Arminians on this board, I have noticed they consistently state that God has purposely placed His will in subordination under man's will.

They claim this is God's will, which is to be unable to change the heart of men without man's full consent. They claim that any overriding of man's will is tantamount to enslaving humans and making them puppets of God.

This castrates God's Sovereignty and makes God a mere advisor and places each man as the sovereign ruler of his/her own dominion.

Why would a Christian want God to be so small?

We have a much broader view of God than Calvinists. We know that God loves us and has allowed us free will. We know that God loves his creation and did not make humans as puppets on a string. We know that God, like any good father, allows us to make choices, even bad choices and that we can learn from those choices. We know that God is not the creator of evil that Calvinists believe in as they believe God foreordained all things, even the evil we see i n the world. The God Calvinist create is a small, mean spirited god. Calvinists say they believe in God's sovereignty, but they don't. They believe in God's pulling strings making his puppets dance his dance and having no life of their own.

Why do Calvinist's make God so small?

 

[MennoSota]

We have a much broader view of God than Calvinists. We know that God loves us and has allowed us free will. We know that God loves his creation and did not make humans as puppets on a string. We know that God, like any good father, allows us to make choices, even bad choices and that we can learn from those choices. We know that God is not the creator of evil that Calvinists believe in as they believe God foreordained all things, even the evil we see i n the world. The God Calvinist create is a small, mean spirited god. Calvinists say they believe in God's sovereignty, but they don't. They believe in God's pulling strings making his puppets dance his dance and having no life of their own.

Why do Calvinist's make God so small?

...and zero scripture to backup the claims of free will, which makes the claim of no value.

You don't know that God loves sin or the sinner. What we know is that God loves His Son, Yeshua. We know God loves those who are in Christ Jesus, not because there is anything lovely in the human, but solely because the human is found in Christ.

Outside of Christ there is no good choice. There is only a slave to sin who does what sinners do...follow their father, the devil.

There are no puppets. There are rebels born in sin who need a Redeemer. There is a just God who is not mean spirited, but is a judge who justly condemns sin and the sinner. The twisted thought is that of a person who imagines a just God to be mean spirited because he judges rightly. It is as though you would blame a judge for sentencing a convicted murderer and thus declare that the judge is mean spirited. Why would you call God mean spirited for judging rightly?

What is great and amazing is that a God who judges rightly would choose to pardon even one person let alone millions. What is great and amazing is that the Sovereign God of all creation chooses to extend grace as he wills. There is nothing small about such a God.

I am amazed, crabtown, that you call God mean spirited. Wow!

 

[Rob_BW]

One who posts accusations should not be surprised at counter-accusations.

 

[Reynolds]

Where do you find that in the Bible, Reynolds? I would be interested in that passage.

Isaiah 43:7
Rev 4:11
God gets no glory from a puppet on a string.

 

[MennoSota]

Isaiah 43:7
Rev 4:11
God gets no glory from a puppet on a string.

Did you even read the verses before 43:7? LOL, if you had you would not have quoted the verse. It's a great passage about God's elective choice.

Isaiah 43:1-7
[1]But now, O Jacob, listen to the lord who created you. O Israel, the one who formed you says, “Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you. I have called you by name; you are mine.
[2]When you go through deep waters, I will be with you. When you go through rivers of difficulty, you will not drown. When you walk through the fire of oppression, you will not be burned up; the flames will not consume you.
[3]For I am the lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I gave Egypt as a ransom for your freedom; I gave Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
[4]Others were given in exchange for you. I traded their lives for yours because you are precious to me. You are honored, and I love you.
[5]“Do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will gather you and your children from east and west.
[6]I will say to the north and south, ‘Bring my sons and daughters back to Israel from the distant corners of the earth.
[7]Bring all who claim me as their God, for I have made them for my glory. It was I who created them.’”

As for Revelation 4:11, I have no idea how you think it is a verse proving free will.

Revelation 4:9-11
[9]Whenever the living beings give glory and honor and thanks to the one sitting on the throne (the one who lives forever and ever),
[10]the twenty-four elders fall down and worship the one sitting on the throne (the one who lives forever and ever). And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,
[11]“You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.”

 

[MennoSota]

One who posts accusations should not be surprised at counter-accusations.

I expect it. I also expect biblical data proving free will. So far the claims have been emotional, but biblically weak.

 

[Calv1]

I serve a Huge God. You have to look at why God created man. He did not need nor did he want another class of puppets. He wanted a spirit being who had the ability to freely choose to live Him or freely choose to reject Him.

Chapter and verse please? We'll all wait for it.

This is the danger folks, those of you watching, see how he just makes a random statement that HE THINKS is how God operates, but has no scriptural support. The reason I asked for chapter and verse is that he cannot produce it, so he hopes reason will win the day, it will not, God's word does.

In John 6 Jesus answers this question, first He says man is Unable to come to Him, then He gives the only way man can come to Him, that is "IF the Father DRAWS him", then He says "ALL that the Father draw WILL COME", then finishes by saying "All that THE FATHER HAS GIVEN ME I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT", TULIP in on chapter and verse. Obviously there are thousands of such examples, but John 6 is a Canyon no Arminian has, or can jump over, climb under, it's clarity, it's context in answering why some believed and some didn't is without dispute.

Now this fellow clearly has no notion of Reformed theology. "Class of Puppets" huh? If you act in such a way so that a woman falls in love with you, is she a puppet? According to you she is, but this is not what scripture teaches, nor does Reformed Theology, "I have DRAWN YOU with Loving kindness", we are all made for God, just as water is to thirst, food is to hunger, so God is to man's happiness, no one can resist Him for He is life, and when He "Takes out our heart of stone and HE puts in a heart of flesh", our desires change to love Him and hate evil, that a Christian would use words like "Puppet" suggests strongly that they have never known the Lord, I have the Spirit of Christ, so my heart DESIRES THE THINGS OF HIM, to not know this is to not be Regenerated. I feel much pity for such a class of men, men who know not the Lord, no know what a Joy it is to be near Him, and do His will, not out of our strength but by His Spirit.

I'm so glad that God is the one who opens hearts, hardens them, opens mouths, closes them, there is not one part of reality that extends beyond his Sovereignty. If man had free will as this unlearned fellow suggests, then he must never pray for anyone, for what would you pray? That God violate mans free will and draw him to the Lord? Can't have that, no mighty man has to be in control, their tiny god in Heaven, begging for them all to come, crying every day "But you are dying tomorrow, I love you infinitely, GEE I HOPE YOU USE YOUR FREE WILL AND REPENT, FOR IF YOU DON'T I'LL HAVE TO HATE YOU FOREVER AND TORMENT YOU FOREVER, EVEN THOUGH I LOVE YOU, FOR YOUR FREE WILL IS MORE IMPORTANT AND POWERFUL THAN MY FREE WILL, OH WHY DID I GIVE MAN FREE WILL".

 

[Calv1]

I expect it. I also expect biblical data proving free will. So far the claims have been emotional, but biblically weak.

Funny I just asked for chapter and verse also, don't hold your breathe, it's a perfect example of man spouting out something he either heard somewhere, believes in fallen reason, but has zero scriptural support, I GUARANTEE YOU this guy, out of frustration for not being able to find one verse to support his position will attack up personally, watch I've done this along time