Oh, then you believe Adam had no choice, God made Adam sin. ok.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Why do Arminians have such a small view of God?
- Thread starter MennoSota
- Start date
- Status
Nope, you know exactly what i believe for we have had many discussions. You making this up does nothing for your cause. You would have to provide my post where i say such a thing. Otherwise you are just erecting a straw man to waste my time.
The post was not about Adam, it was about blindness. Keep up with your own responses. lol.
Where is the text in scripture for either view you have stated? I'm waiting for textual evidence.
I really don't know what you believe other than you are currently arguing that humans have free will.
I await textual evidence for your position.
How does that text fit with your contention regarding Adam and free will. I am waiting for textual evidence.
Man does have a will. However, it is enslaved to sin and self.[Matthew 6:24, Romans 6:6 & Romans 6:16]
God's will and Adam's choice met in the Garden.
God's will and man's will met in the garden at Gethsamane and fulfilled at Calvary.
Calv1
Active Member
Category error.
You assume only one or the other, either Adam had free will or God made Him, that's all you see, and the reason is because you don't study the bible, there is a third category.
God created Adam blameless, and if He desired that he not sin, all He had to do was to make no law, no law no transgression, but He did create a law. Likewise God did not have to allow Satan in the garden, but He did.
God made a law, Satan tempted Adam, Adam sinned. Here we see Satan sin, Adam sin, yet God pure and is not the author of the sin, understand?
I wish, I guess in the wind, that people would actually study before giving these crazy analogies, "God didn't want robots", right, what's the point? "He didn't want puppets", it's so amateur, just shows no study, which is fine, but don't make posts on a Christian forum where you can deceive a brother. Go study, learn Reformed theology, that is men trying to Reform the Roman Church, there is two camps, the Roman camp which includes Arminiism, and Reformed, no middle ground. Arminiism is SO CLOSE TO ROME it's remarkable, take away the merits of the saints, take away category sins, take away the Lords supper and you have Arminiism.
Never forget, WE ARE STILL AT WAR, STILL PROTESTING, it hasn't stopped, the Jesuits are still trying counter-Reformation to this day! People this is NO GAME, please for YOUR OWN SAKE, don't blaspheme God, have the sense to step back, spend a year studying Reformed Theology, Wycliffe, Huff, Luther, Calvin, Knox, they all believed the same, some died, some lived, we celebrate Luther and Calvin, but Huff and Wycliffe died in the cause, the Pope has incredible power, more than any King, and it still continues. As close as Vatican 2, they reassured that the Pope can alter Scripture, the Pope's teachings are more powerful than God Himself (If you think I'm exaggerating read it yourself). We Reformed maintain the Pope Anti-Christ, not the fictional super being that is supposed to come, but 1 John "Anti-Christ", "A" Anti-Christ, just read the Reformers.
The problem is that when the common man had scripture, to the great disgust of the Roman Church, man found out that they were saved by Faith Alone, Rome battled this in so many ways I don't have place to write, but it continues.
The Jesuits are responsible for our new liberal "faith". Reformed Theology WAS Protestant Theology from Luther to the late 1800's, sure there were cults, pockets of Arminism, Weslyism took hold in the 19th century, that combined with German "HIgher Criticism" has brought us to where we are today, man, believing Scripture to not be accurate, stopped believing every word, hence we got Arminism mainstream, liberalism always wins the day eventually, just look at our politics. Today Reformed, though on the rise, is minority, we live in a post biblical/pagan age, one where fallen man uses his reason to form biblical theology, that's called paganism, it's heresy and nothing short of HERESY.
Despite me being an ignorant, ranting, moron who is not worthy to converse with you; Calvinism still has some major problems. Some of the most learned Calvinists I know will readily admit these problems. They are obviously mindless morons like me. The problem of Adam is an issue that Calvinism does not successfully deal with. Likewise you did not successfully deal with it either. Adams sin was either an action of his moral agency or he was merely an unwilling player acting out the script of his life. Your "third" choice is nothing but a lengthy distraction. If Adam had no ability to freely choose, the law and Satan are totally meaningless to his story. A law is irrelevant if you have no free will to decide whether or not to follow or break it. A temptor is meaningless if acting on thetemptation is not a decision you have the ability to make.
You can either respond in a meaningful way or again simply tell me I am too ignorant and unlearned to engage in a discussion with a person as learned and enlightened as yourself.
It's not an either/or issue, though you attempt to frame it as such.
Adam and Eve's fall results in something that angels long to understand. How can a just God display grace? That same just God shows no grace toward any other created being. But God displays grace to man, Adam and his offspring.
The idea of free will is a man-made mental gymnastics exercise. But, is there demonstrable, God spoken, words in the Bible that declares free will to be God's means interaction with humans? Let God's word speak and let us be silent. Weigh out the measures test free will as God may state it in the Bible with God's will as God may state it in the Bible. Let us place our bias to the side and compare. Let us not fall victim to philosophies manufactured by mere opinions that surmise without biblical support.
Can we show anything in scripture where God tells us that Adam, by free will, acted? Conversely, can we find anything in scripture where God tells us that God willed the fall? What biblical text supports either position?
I believe you are avoiding dealing with Adam. I honestly respect the answer of a well known Calvinist scholar better than I respect the avoidance position. He says something like " Adam poses a problem to reformed theology. However Armenianism has far more and far bigger problems it must overcome." For the record, I am far closer to being A Calvinist than I am being an Armenian.
What biblical text deals with your question, Reynolds? Please inform us.
Until then, we have to go with what the Bible does share regarding a person's capacity to save themselves by choosing God. On this subject the Bible tells us that humans do not seek God. The Bible tells us that we were dead in trespasses and sins. The Bible tells us that God gives spiritual life to those whom he chooses. In other words, we cannot do what we are incapable of doing. It matters not how many angles we attempt to create...we cannot make ourselves alive and make ourselves will something that our dead spirit cannot accomplish.
Thus, reynolds, you are asking questions that are both unanswerable and ultimately irrelevant.
II pet 3:9. We are being true to scripture. Does it mention the elect or do you have to add it in that passage?
To your above points, I do not disagree. The Spirit must call a man. A man dead in sin can not call himself. Where we disagree is to whether the call is or is not "irresistible."
2 Peter 3 isn't speaking to what you are speaking.
2 Peter 3:2-10
[2]I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.
[3]Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires.
[4]They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”
[5]They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water.
[6]Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
[7]And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
[8]But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.
[9]The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
[10]But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.
Also, how does a dead person resist? Was Lazarus capable of telling Jesus that he wouldn't come to life and he wouldn't come forth?
Reynolds, let the text determine your views. Don't let your views determine the text.
You are the one who is letting your views determine the text. Even John Mcarthur agrees with my interpretation of that verse. He just adds the caveat that all are "all the elect" and none are "none of the elect.
It is your view, not mine. You say Adam did not have a free will to choose between obeying God and not. Then who is responsible for the sin if Adam had no choice? That only leaves God or the devil.
- Status