Why do Arminians have such a small view of God?

[MennoSota]

Job was righteous in all his ways in the same sense that David was a man after Gods own heart. We know that only one man was literally righteous in all His ways. That knowledge tells us that God used a figure of speech. Job was being truthful based on the knowledge he had. He had no knowledge of Satan. He attributed the actions of Satan to God. God does not commit evil. Think about that statement before you answer it.

What does God tell Habakkuk?

Habakkuk 1:5-11
[5]The lord replied, “Look around at the nations; look and be amazed! For I am doing something in your own day, something you wouldn’t believe even if someone told you about it.
[6]I am raising up the Babylonians, a cruel and violent people. They will march across the world and conquer other lands.
[7]They are notorious for their cruelty and do whatever they like.
[8]Their horses are swifter than cheetahs and fiercer than wolves at dusk. Their charioteers charge from far away. Like eagles, they swoop down to devour their prey.
[9]“On they come, all bent on violence. Their hordes advance like a desert wind, sweeping captives ahead of them like sand.
[10]They scoff at kings and princes and scorn all their fortresses. They simply pile ramps of earth against their walls and capture them!
[11]They sweep past like the wind and are gone. But they are deeply guilty, for their own strength is their god.”

God ordains both the good and the bad.

Yes, Satan was causing the pain and suffering with Job. Reynolds...who approved that Satan could do such a thing?

Job 1:6-12
[6]One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
[7]“Where have you come from?” the lord asked Satan.Satan answered the lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”
[8]Then the lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”
[9]Satan replied to the lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God.
[10]You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is!
[11]But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
[12]“All right, you may test him,” the lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the lord’s presence.

 

[steaver]

You don't grasp the truth that your argument is against free will.

I grasp very well my argument and have explained it very clearly. You just don't like the term freewill.

Your will never supercedes God's will.

Amen!

If God chooses you for damnation, you will be damned. If God chooses you for reconciliation, you will be reconciled.

Amen! Within the parameters and conditions which God has ordained.

You cannot go outside the parameters of God's Sovereign will.

Amen!

 

[MennoSota]

I grasp very well my argument and have explained it very clearly. You just don't like the term freewill.


Amen!


Amen! Within the parameters and conditions which God has ordained.


Amen!

Great! You are a Calvinist!

 

[steaver]

Great! You are a Calvinist!

You want me to be a Calvinist?

You have to explain two things...

1) Explain Adam's sin. Was it of his own choice given him by God? Or did God make him choose sin?

2) For all those thereafter, why does God need to blind those, who according to Calvinism, are already blind from birth? And btw, please don't embarrass Calvinism with that story that they would believe a false Christ again. Hopefully for you guy's sake folks will soon forget about that silly answer.

 

[Reynolds]

What does God tell Habakkuk?

Habakkuk 1:5-11
[5]The lord replied, “Look around at the nations; look and be amazed! For I am doing something in your own day, something you wouldn’t believe even if someone told you about it.
[6]I am raising up the Babylonians, a cruel and violent people. They will march across the world and conquer other lands.
[7]They are notorious for their cruelty and do whatever they like.
[8]Their horses are swifter than cheetahs and fiercer than wolves at dusk. Their charioteers charge from far away. Like eagles, they swoop down to devour their prey.
[9]“On they come, all bent on violence. Their hordes advance like a desert wind, sweeping captives ahead of them like sand.
[10]They scoff at kings and princes and scorn all their fortresses. They simply pile ramps of earth against their walls and capture them!
[11]They sweep past like the wind and are gone. But they are deeply guilty, for their own strength is their god.”

God ordains both the good and the bad.

Yes, Satan was causing the pain and suffering with Job. Reynolds...who approved that Satan could do such a thing?

Job 1:6-12
[6]One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
[7]“Where have you come from?” the lord asked Satan.Satan answered the lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”
[8]Then the lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”
[9]Satan replied to the lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God.
[10]You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is!
[11]But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
[12]“All right, you may test him,” the lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the lord’s presence.

God allowed. Is it safe to say we agree on that?

Does God allow judgment? Sure. Does God himself actively judge? Sure. Gods actions are never evil or wicked.

 

[MennoSota]

You want me to be a Calvinist?

You have to explain two things...

1) Explain Adam's sin. Was it of his own choice given him by God? Or did God make him choose sin?

2) For all those thereafter, why does God need to blind those already blind from birth (according to Calvinism) ? And btw, please don't embarrass Calvinism with that story that they would believe a false Christ again. Hopefully for you guy's sake folks will soon forget about that silly answer.

Reynolds, these have both been thoroughly explained to you. You have now agreed to Calvinist beliefs on God's sovereign will and men being kept within God's will. It is you who is recycling old complaints that have been refuted.
Either you believe human actions are held within the will of God or you believe humans are free to act outside of God's will. The latter is free will. Unencumbered and unabated. The first view is Calvinist and places all actions within the will of God. Both good and evil...as I showed you in both Job and Habakkuk.

 

[MennoSota]

God allowed. Is it safe to say we agree on that?

Does God allow judgment? Sure. Does God himself actively judge? Sure. Gods actions are never evil or wicked.

God ordained it. God gave his approval. God declared.

Indeed God's actions are never evil.
But you are judging God and telling him what evil and good must be. When God says he raised up evil Babylon to do His will. His will is not evil. But Babylon sure is. When God tells Satan to try Job, His will is not evil. But Satan is.

God does things in His Sovereign will that you and I cannot comprehend. How do we dare to call His ordained choices "evil"?

Reynolds, your God is small.

 

[Mr. Davis]

God allowed. Is it safe to say we agree on that?

Does God allow judgment? Sure. Does God himself actively judge? Sure. Gods actions are never evil or wicked.

Reynolds, you and Steaver are both Cowards!

Read my post #181 on page 10. Neither of you had the courage to reply to it!

You read it, didn't say anything, so you must agree with it.

State a contrary view if you can!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

This particular Arminian has a rather large view of God...

Shambach was one of the biggest heretics around. Hope he repented and received Christ before he died.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God did not tell Adam to worship God either. What's up with that?

Adam was made sinless, upright. But when he sinned, he got kicked out. Non sequitor.

Pharaoh was evil to the core. Not once did God tell Moses to tell them to be reconciled to Him.

It was God's plan that Adam would sin. So was this Adam's free will to sin or was it God causing Adam to sin?

Both, though I won't call Adam's will free. He freely operated in the boundaries God placed him in. But that's not free by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Reynolds]

God ordained it. God gave his approval. God declared.

Indeed God's actions are never evil.
But you are judging God and telling him what evil and good must be. When God says he raised up evil Babylon to do His will. His will is not evil. But Babylon sure is. When God tells Satan to try Job, His will is not evil. But Satan is.

God does things in His Sovereign will that you and I cannot comprehend. How do we dare to call His ordained choices "evil"?

Reynolds, your God is small.

No. You are making assumptions about what I believe. Back to the statement of Job. It was wrong. This is kind of getting into the area of "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?". God does not do evil. Man is not the judge of Gods actions. No matter what God does, it is not evil. Even if he were theoretically capable of evil. At the point in time He does it, it would no longer be evil. Everything He does is good, perfect, just, and righteous. Why? Because He defines what is good, perfect, just, and righteous. Soooooooooo............ Job was wrong in his statement that attributed evil to God.

 

[Reynolds]

God from eternity past, always and only, intended to save the elect. He did not coerce them to be His. The Holy Spirit worked in their hearts and made them spiritually alive from the dead: He regenerated them, and this is how they acquired faith unto salvation. Regeneration always precedes faith. In declaring they are saved, they mean it was God enabling them to have faith in Christ.

First off, you can get your bloomers out of a bunch and quit whining. Second. I am no coward. Third, I did not respond to your post because I for all practical purposes agree with it. We could quibble a bit over the exact meaning of spiritually alive, but we agree at a practical level so there is no need.

So everyone who assumes otherwise will know, I am not an Armenian. I am not a Calvinist in the modern sense of the term. My views are very close to the views of D Jamrs Kennedy. Which is in a tremendously abridged explanation; election is much more closely tied to foreknowledge than absolute predestination.

 

[MennoSota]

No. You are making assumptions about what I believe. Back to the statement of Job. It was wrong. This is kind of getting into the area of "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?". God does not do evil. Man is not the judge of Gods actions. No matter what God does, it is not evil. Even if he were theoretically capable of evil. At the point in time He does it, it would no longer be evil. Everything He does is good, perfect, just, and righteous. Why? Because He defines what is good, perfect, just, and righteous. Soooooooooo............ Job was wrong in his statement that attributed evil to God.

No. Job was right. God chose to send Satan. I showed you this. God brought evil to Job. But...but...it was because God's plan was good. God sends the bad upon us just as he sends the good.

If we go with your view then Satan is like God in his power. Neither you nor I believe that. God is infinitely greater than Satan. Satan, therefore, can only do what God grants him the right to do. Satan, like us, does not have a free will.

 

[utilyan]

Great! You are a Calvinist!

No one disputes God can do what he wants, But you are saying God can't give anyone a free choice means you don't believe in God's sovereignty

Mark 6

4Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6He was amazed at their lack of faith.



Jesus Christ was SURPRISE at their lack of faith, Apparently he did not get the Calvinist memo.



God can do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, but he can't predestine free will.


Calvinism says God can do what he wants as long its the way I WANT.



Just because the word BRAIN is not in the bible does not mean you do not have a brain.

 

[Reynolds]

No. Job was right. God chose to send Satan. I showed you this. God brought evil to Job. But...but...it was because God's plan was good. God sends the bad upon us just as he sends the good.

If we go with your view then Satan is like God in his power. Neither you nor I believe that. God is infinitely greater than Satan. Satan, therefore, can only do what God grants him the right to do. Satan, like us, does not have a free will.

No. You are doing something, but it is not reading. We agreed upon God allowed. God allowed does not equal God did.

 

[MennoSota]

No one disputes God can do what he wants, But you are saying God can't give anyone a free choice means you don't believe in God's sovereignty

Mark 6

4Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6He was amazed at their lack of faith.



Jesus Christ was SURPRISE at their lack of faith, Apparently he did not get the Calvinist memo.



God can do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, but he can't predestine free will.


Calvinism says God can do what he wants as long its the way I WANT.



Just because the word BRAIN is not in the bible does not mean you do not have a brain.

Utilyan, do you ever get tired of being utterly wrong?

 

[MennoSota]

No. You are doing something, but it is not reading. We agreed upon God allowed. God allowed does not equal God did.

You said God allowed. I said God ordained, which is not some passive, sit-back and watch approach.
I have provided very specific text showing God ordaining the use of evil to accomplish His good and perfect will.
Why do you want a passive and wimpy God?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 11:30 PM Pacific.

 

[Reynolds]

You said God allowed. I said God ordained, which is not some passive, sit-back and watch approach.
I have provided very specific text showing God ordaining the use of evil to accomplish His good and perfect will.
Why do you want a passive and wimpy God?

Why do you want an evil god?

 

[MennoSota]

Why do you want an evil god?

You declare God's will to be evil because you place yourself above God and think of Him as your advisor rather than your Master.
God is good. All that He ordains is because He is good and His good plans use evil people and tragedy for purposes we will never know.
God doesn't explain everything to us. He only asks us to trust Him.