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why Do Arminians "KNOW" God saves more sinners their way than in calvinism?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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From what I have seen Calvinists on this board post, then they, Calvinists, have no clue how many will be saved or who will be saved. Just the elect and they have no idea who the elect really are.
Without having complete entry into the Mind of God...ie the Lambs book of life.....NO, not to a shadowof a doubt....but an incling through the fruit of the spirit...yes.
To my understanding, God choosing to save sinners by the eay calvinism espouses would preserve the most to get saved, for God would determine that number to be an absolute/will happen number, nit a "preach jesus, and maybe they will come to him" way!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
1. God tells us to invite all to come, thus implying all can, thus any teaching that suggests otherwise only undermines the clear intent of that initial invitation.
2. If Calvinism is right then no amount of Arminianism will detract from the number of those saved.
3. If "Arminianism" is right then there is no way to know how many souls were distracted, confused or otherwise detoured from the faith by the false claims of Calvinism and the disunity it caused throughout the History of Christendom.
Conclusion: Calvinists have much more to lose if they are in error than if we are. After all, we are only doing what God so ordained for us to do for his greatest Glory, right?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hint - see the "Lament of God" it can only happen in the Arminian model.
Calvinism does not survive it.
That is a huge clue that the Arminian support in the Bible is something that Calvinism simply does not survive.
How many Calvinists on this board have we already found flatly denying that the "lament" texts - should even exist.
in Christ,
Bob
I’m curious. I understand many Calvinists do seem to struggle with the “lament” texts and some develop a purely anthropomorphic and unbiblical position to handle them. But this is not necessarily “Calvinism.” How do you determine the “Lament of God” to be beyond the grasp of a Calvinistic system which does not deny man the responsibility for his own action?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Calvinism God is free to be arbitrary - zap the mind of one - and do not zaaapp the mind of another. God can even say to the lost "hey I have a law and by my law you should burn - nobody said I had to die for your sins. Now now you burn".
But God is not free to say to the one not-zapped "What MORE Could I have done that I have not done for you so that you would be my child and obey?" - because Calvinism knows EXACTLY "what more" God did for the saved than for the lost to get the desired result.
Thus - Calvinism does not survive the text.
The Arminian POV does not argue that God does "More" to reach out for the lost person that chooses to get saved than he did for the lost person refusing salvation.
So then 100 people hear an evangelistic appeal - God "draws ALL unto him" John 12:32 - not just an arbitrarily selected "few" while simply ignoring the rest and then innexplicably lamenting over them with words like "what MORE could I have done that I have not done?".
This is where the Calvinist argument simply fizzles out.
in Christ,
Bob
But God is not free to say to the one not-zapped "What MORE Could I have done that I have not done for you so that you would be my child and obey?" - because Calvinism knows EXACTLY "what more" God did for the saved than for the lost to get the desired result.
Thus - Calvinism does not survive the text.
The Arminian POV does not argue that God does "More" to reach out for the lost person that chooses to get saved than he did for the lost person refusing salvation.
So then 100 people hear an evangelistic appeal - God "draws ALL unto him" John 12:32 - not just an arbitrarily selected "few" while simply ignoring the rest and then innexplicably lamenting over them with words like "what MORE could I have done that I have not done?".
This is where the Calvinist argument simply fizzles out.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
I was not aware that Calvinism held the acts of God to be arbitrary.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The system has nothing to do with the salvation of anyone. God will bring His Elect to Salvation in Jesus Christ in His own time and own way.
Thank you, OldRegular.
Is not 1 thessalonians 1:4-5 written for the very purpose so you can know you are one of the elect? Does not it point out three distinctives of being one of the elect? Does not he say that the gospel comes to them in three distinct ways? (1) In power; (2) In the Spirit and (3) in much assurance? The power is defined as personal transformation of nature (Eph. 2:10; 4:24; etc.). Does not "much assurance" demand that the elect know they are saved in direct connection with how the gospel comes to them - their personal experience of gospel conversion?
Does not John 6:36-39 claim "all" those given to him by the Father do in fact come by faith to Christ and "all" given shall be saved with none lost?
Does not John 10:27-30 claim that his sheep do (1) hear his voice, (2) know him; (3) and follow him?
I know that I am one of the elect because how the gospel came to me. It came to me exactly and precisely as described in 1 Thessalonians 1:5. It came to me in power. I was sitting minding my own business not seeking God or anything but getting out of the church service as soon as possible. However, something began to occur inside me that I was not in control of. It exposed me, laid me bare and revealed to me that I was a sinner under judgement and produced guilt inside of me. It opened my eyes to see I had no other hope but Christ for salvation. There was a transforming power that changed my view of myself, of sin and of Christ. When that experience was completed I was a repentant sinner and believer in the gospel and had no doubts about what had happened because I was the recipient of this experience rather than the producer of that experience.
Does not Paul say the Spirit beareth witness with our spirits we are the children of God and thus that is part of the gospel coming "in much assurance"?
Whosever will, may come.
But the promise is not "whosoever will NOT may come" and that is the inclination of the lost condition - Rom. 8:7-8
God is not willing that any should perish.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Most don't, and no one on B.B. that I know of.
Some of the older Calvinist Theologians can be said to have maintained there was some arbitrariness to election.
Jonathan Edwards seemed to hint at it now and again. Some Theology Historians maintain Edwards essentially believed that. Of course, no modern Calvie I know of would say there is any arbitrariness to it.
Then we all go to heaven, nobody is in hell or hellbound....end of story:BangHead:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Calvinists are very clear that there is no difference between the lost person that will be saved and the lost person that will not be saved. Nothing at all about that person determines the difference in Calvinism.
The "selection" in that system is the purest form of arbitrary known to mankind.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The lost condition in the "absence" of the Work of God in "Drawing aLL mankind to Me" John 12:32.
The lost condition in the "absence" of the Work of God in "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.
The lost condition in the "absence" of the Work of God in "placing enmity between the see of the woman and the seed of the serpent" Genesis 3.
The circular argument that nobody among the lost wills to follow Christ so all of "whosoever will is to be negated" is based on first "assuming" that all the "World-downsizing stories" of Calvinism are "true".
One cannot assume the salient point of one's own argument as "proof of it".
in Christ,
Bob
This statement is not in the bible. God is very willing that multitudes will perish , in fact he says so right here;
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Sounds like he is very willing to justly send them away...and here again;
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Your statement is false and unbiblical because you mangled the verse where these words are found.The verse actual speaks of The Long suffering of God in waiting for all the elect to be saved....He is Long suffering...TO USWARD,
not willing that any...[of the usward} perish.....but that ALL come to repentance, and they ALL do. Not one of these shall perish.
In contrast to the scoffers of 2 pet 3...the Beloved, the elect are assured of God's design to save ALL the Father gives to the Son.....read the whole chapter if you want to see this.......It is written to encourage believers in the midst of the ungodly scoffers who come against the truth.
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