Again, what caused those who received jesus to accept Him as Lord, for the natural man in their sinful natures are at war with God!
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Why Do Arminians Pray for the Salvation of the Lost?
- Thread starter thatbrian
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So you are saying the gospel is not enough?
No, I am saying that the Gospel in and by itself saves none, as it still takes the work of the Holy Spirit to give a sinner a heart and mind that can now respond to it and get saved.
Wow! just wow.
So you deny Romans 1:16 which says the gospel is the power for salvation? Are you really denying scripture?
Do not cut that apart from rest of the posting though!
You cannot find the rest of that post in scripture. Further, the first part is very disturbing.
Why?
You shorted the verse:
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
The gospel itself is the power (might, dynamo) but without the Holy Spirit bringing about such work as only that He can do, there is no salvation.
Example:
Paul discussed the word with the king, but the only evidence of impact was the intellectual enjoyment, the entertainment.
Please re-read what I quoted of Arminius' writings, in the post of mine you quoted. That was answered.
O.K:
To speak to this argument.....it helps neither the Calvinist nor the non-Calvinist:
The "Why do you pray" thingy.....is a dead-end for both groups.
The arguments line up somewhat thusly:
I.) Why does a Calvinist pray for the lost??
Inasmuch as God has, of his own free will and purposes surely ordained all of those who will believe, and insomuch as those who are chosen have their sins assuredly atoned for upon the cross, it is pointless to ask God to retroactively consign his beloved Son to pay for sins for which he did not atone.
All those whom God has elected have already had their sins so expiated or atoned for and propitiated, that the Arminian could (reasonably) argue that it is an exercise in futility for any Calvinist to pray for the lost.
After all, if God has chosen that person and they are "elect"...than, prayers are unnecessary inasmuch as it is a surety that they will (in God's own perfect timing) come to salvation by grace and be regenerated.
If, however, that person is not of the elect....than to pray for their salvation....is in fact to pray for the very converse of God's perfect will....it is to "kick against the pricks".
If God has chosen, of his own inscrutable and perfect purposes not to elect that individual, nor to atone for their sin, for his own glory, than to wish for or pray for their salvation is to find oneself to fight against God....
If they are of the elect, than their election is assured and no post-facto prayers will make any difference, or they will, at best find themselves to be at variance with God's perfect will.....
That's the argument the non-Calvinist could make:
To speak to this argument.....it helps neither the Calvinist nor the non-Calvinist:
The "Why do you pray" thingy.....is a dead-end for both groups.
The arguments line up somewhat thusly:
I.) Why does a Calvinist pray for the lost??
Inasmuch as God has, of his own free will and purposes surely ordained all of those who will believe, and insomuch as those who are chosen have their sins assuredly atoned for upon the cross, it is pointless to ask God to retroactively consign his beloved Son to pay for sins for which he did not atone.
All those whom God has elected have already had their sins so expiated or atoned for and propitiated, that the Arminian could (reasonably) argue that it is an exercise in futility for any Calvinist to pray for the lost.
After all, if God has chosen that person and they are "elect"...than, prayers are unnecessary inasmuch as it is a surety that they will (in God's own perfect timing) come to salvation by grace and be regenerated.
If, however, that person is not of the elect....than to pray for their salvation....is in fact to pray for the very converse of God's perfect will....it is to "kick against the pricks".
If God has chosen, of his own inscrutable and perfect purposes not to elect that individual, nor to atone for their sin, for his own glory, than to wish for or pray for their salvation is to find oneself to fight against God....
If they are of the elect, than their election is assured and no post-facto prayers will make any difference, or they will, at best find themselves to be at variance with God's perfect will.....
That's the argument the non-Calvinist could make:
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But, that argument ultimately fails:
Calvinists rightly point out that God has chosen to use "means"...
as they say.....namely the preaching of the gospel, prayers of the lost, etc...for the task of accomplishing his Divine Purpose.
To his glory, and for it, God is so disposed that it pleases him to use his elect in the calling of preaching the Word and in their prayers and it is simply a matter of obedience to his Divine Command to preach the gospel. Thus, it is rightly a matter of rote obedience at it's worst, or even being the very tool/Avatar BY WHICH God chooses to call and regenerate those for whom he has died....
Thus, the Calvinist is quite right in obeying the injunction to pray for the lost, and to preach to all mankind, because it serves God's purposes to use them in the task.
Calvinists rightly point out that God has chosen to use "means"...
as they say.....namely the preaching of the gospel, prayers of the lost, etc...for the task of accomplishing his Divine Purpose.
To his glory, and for it, God is so disposed that it pleases him to use his elect in the calling of preaching the Word and in their prayers and it is simply a matter of obedience to his Divine Command to preach the gospel. Thus, it is rightly a matter of rote obedience at it's worst, or even being the very tool/Avatar BY WHICH God chooses to call and regenerate those for whom he has died....
Thus, the Calvinist is quite right in obeying the injunction to pray for the lost, and to preach to all mankind, because it serves God's purposes to use them in the task.
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Enter the Non-Calvinst problem:
The argument from a Calvinist is something like this:
Since you (non-Calvinists) insist that God refuses to violate human volition, and inasmuch as God has already accomplished all he can and will accomplish on the cross vis-à-vis your view of atonement...and since you have preached the gospel to any given sinner, than there is nothing God can continue to do if atonement is Universal as you claim....it is thus left entirely to the devises of that sinner to choose to come and there is nothing you can ask God to "DO" that he has not already done.
Therefore, if you pray for him to "Batter my heart Three-personed-God" as John Donne might say, than you betray your own Theology and are pleading for a perfectly Sovereign God to suspend Libertarian freedom and so change that heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh unilaterally, thus denying their genuine creaturely freedom and demanding a Calvinistic account of Soteriology.
So goes the argument:
The argument from a Calvinist is something like this:
Since you (non-Calvinists) insist that God refuses to violate human volition, and inasmuch as God has already accomplished all he can and will accomplish on the cross vis-à-vis your view of atonement...and since you have preached the gospel to any given sinner, than there is nothing God can continue to do if atonement is Universal as you claim....it is thus left entirely to the devises of that sinner to choose to come and there is nothing you can ask God to "DO" that he has not already done.
Therefore, if you pray for him to "Batter my heart Three-personed-God" as John Donne might say, than you betray your own Theology and are pleading for a perfectly Sovereign God to suspend Libertarian freedom and so change that heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh unilaterally, thus denying their genuine creaturely freedom and demanding a Calvinistic account of Soteriology.
So goes the argument:
For those of us who DO hold to the Doctrines of Grace yet reject the limit of atonement as a matter of blood but rightly that it resided with God's sovereign choice of who He would claim of all that Christ died, then it follows that prayer is not offered for all indiscriminately but with purpose.
1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:1)
(1 Timothy 2:1)
But, it also fails:
A non-Calvinist is also perfectly free to appeal to the idea that God "uses means"....just as much as a Calvinist does.
Nothing prevents that....
Moreover, if they do indeed appeal to a form of "Prevenient Grace"....or an "Enabling Grace" than, that particular function is equally as critical and necessary as any form or Irresistible Grace called for by a Calvinist.
Either one is necessary, and EITHER one must be in effect for the salvation of a soul.
Thus, the non-Calvinist is quite right then, to plead for God to enact his "prevenient-grace" in order for the mechanisms to be in place for the salvation of that sinner to occur.
Also, both camps generally tend to agree that there is something of a "general" call and an "individual" call to salvation...The "Individual" call is the only one at issue when it comes to prayers for the unregenerate...thus, regardless of modalities or the truth of either system that individual calling MUST be initiated by God himself.....
IN EITHER SCENARIO
There's also the obviously Biblical passage which states:
Rom. 8: 26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom. 8: 27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
This passage clearly teaches that in EITHER SCENARIO....God properly uses "means" and he has chosen men as his vessels to propogate the gospel and their Churches and Saints to be the ones who (while not necessarily comprehending all the mysteries of his plans and purposes) are still commanded and encouraged to pray for those not yet saved. In the hope that all will come to a saving knowledge of Christ.
It basically says: (my translation)
"You idiots don't know what you're talking about anyway...so, don't worry, the Holy Spirit knows the mind of the Father, and he translates your ill-informed requests and renders them effectual despite your stupidity."
This line of argument works neither for the Calvinist nor the "Arminian" or "non-Calvinist"...
It's a non-starter and dead-end.
You may now continue with this unnecessarily divisive and Theologically impoverished thread.
A non-Calvinist is also perfectly free to appeal to the idea that God "uses means"....just as much as a Calvinist does.
Nothing prevents that....
Moreover, if they do indeed appeal to a form of "Prevenient Grace"....or an "Enabling Grace" than, that particular function is equally as critical and necessary as any form or Irresistible Grace called for by a Calvinist.
Either one is necessary, and EITHER one must be in effect for the salvation of a soul.
Thus, the non-Calvinist is quite right then, to plead for God to enact his "prevenient-grace" in order for the mechanisms to be in place for the salvation of that sinner to occur.
Also, both camps generally tend to agree that there is something of a "general" call and an "individual" call to salvation...The "Individual" call is the only one at issue when it comes to prayers for the unregenerate...thus, regardless of modalities or the truth of either system that individual calling MUST be initiated by God himself.....
IN EITHER SCENARIO
There's also the obviously Biblical passage which states:
Rom. 8: 26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom. 8: 27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
This passage clearly teaches that in EITHER SCENARIO....God properly uses "means" and he has chosen men as his vessels to propogate the gospel and their Churches and Saints to be the ones who (while not necessarily comprehending all the mysteries of his plans and purposes) are still commanded and encouraged to pray for those not yet saved. In the hope that all will come to a saving knowledge of Christ.
It basically says: (my translation)
"You idiots don't know what you're talking about anyway...so, don't worry, the Holy Spirit knows the mind of the Father, and he translates your ill-informed requests and renders them effectual despite your stupidity."
This line of argument works neither for the Calvinist nor the "Arminian" or "non-Calvinist"...
It's a non-starter and dead-end.
You may now continue with this unnecessarily divisive and Theologically impoverished thread.
Yup, covered it...
thanks...
It's a dumb thread...
Got it.
Neither side wins this one....It's a non-starter.
How many times do you have to be told. People get saved by the power of the gospel. Faith is obtained through hearing the gospel.
Can a true Calvinist though hold to the doctrines of Grace minus the limited atonement view?
How can spiritual dead persons pump up non existent faith within them though?
where does scripture say faith comes from?
Over the course of 35 years, I've heard many non-Cals pray for their respective Uncle Billys, but I've not ever heard one pray for God to do something about "prevenient grace" in regard to uncle Billy.
We all intuitively understand more than that. Just as there are no atheists in foxholes there are no (theologically consistent) Arminians in prayer for the lost.
We all intuitively understand more than that. Just as there are no atheists in foxholes there are no (theologically consistent) Arminians in prayer for the lost.
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