Comes from hearing the scriptures being preached, but only those who have been given ears to hear will hear and respond by faith! Rest hear as natural men, and stay lost.
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Why Do Arminians Pray for the Salvation of the Lost?
- Thread starter thatbrian
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Scripture please
Jesus spoke in parables, and told us that only those given ears to here it will receive it and understand, correct?
Good Lord Yeshua...
Not that you'll learn...but even in the "Classical Arminian" schema...(which few here actually adhere to) that's already covered:
It would be covered by their appeal to "Prevenient Grace".
That may not be Rev's explanation....
But, this is so elementary.
There's a device....numerous devices to cover this problem....one need not appeal to deterministic Philosophy to answer it.
So-called, "prevenient grace" is already given to all those who God has determined will choose Him; therefore, the question remains, What exactly is the Arminian praying for? Would you be the first to attempt an answer?
He did say that to his disciples and was speaking of the Jews of His day
Which argues against Calvinism...because it means Jesus was intentionally cryptic in order to hide his true meaning lest they understand him and repent:
Mark 4: 12 “That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”
Love the Gospel of Mark.
He introduces the "Messianic Secret"...
Unnecessary if Calvinism is true.
Hold on...let me just be clear here......
Just to make sure, are you "That-Brian".....
Asking Me whether or not I am WILLING TO "ATTEMPT AN ANSWER"!!!!!!!!!
What in GOD'S HOLY NAME do you think I JUST DID!
If that limit of atonement (taken as the limit of salvation) is based not on the blood but the purposed design of the Sovereignty of God.
Such verses as "...I will draw all men unto me..." or "...desires all men to be saved..." are then in balance.
For how can Christ draw those whom His blood was not shed, or God desire what conditions have not been met for the reconciliation to be truthfully offered. Such would make the blood itself insufficient.
But the blood was shed for all (even the strangers, foreigners, slaves, ...) in the camp of the Jews. Not all in the camp believed, and those that did were then redeemed.
By holding the limit as not upon the blood, but upon that which the Scriptures do state, "...all the Father gives me...," then it remains totally of the potter's choice of redemption, and not in any manner that on human, or even upon the faith of the human.
The judgment of the unredeemed remains upon them as unbelievers, not of a lack of blood.
There is no such faith in the Scriptures called "prevenient / preceding grace."
It was an invention by the Wesley's in an attempt to explain the reason why some are and some are not saved based upon their desire that humankind have some "freedom of the will" choice.
There is NOT as single instance or Scripture for the support of such grace.
It was an invention by the Wesley's in an attempt to explain the reason why some are and some are not saved based upon their desire that humankind have some "freedom of the will" choice.
There is NOT as single instance or Scripture for the support of such grace.
Yes, there are...
I've just laboriously laid out the arguments from both sides of the issue and essentially proven it inescapably..
Please attempt to interact with my arguments...
Or admit that you are a fanatasist not capable of real and reasoned debate, because I've already anticipated and covered this objection in previous posts.
Readers of this thread know it.
Yea its bet not to respond to such inflammatory posts. It doesn't benefit anyone and only encourages more of the same.
There is no such "faith" in the Scriptures called "irresistible" or "efficacious" grace....either.
I hate to say this but, for the sophisticates amongst us:
........duh......
First;y, you could have used a few more exclamation points, and I like the red. Nice touch.
When I clicked on the thread I wasn't taken back to the last comments since I last looked for some reason, so I missed your answer. My apologies.
I will reply soon, but my love for my dear wife has caused me to do something no man should have to endure, I have to watch, The Crown.
Why did Christ bother to speak in parables?
Did you soldier through Downton Abbey?
If you did, you don't owe "The Crown". You've done your bit for King and Country for at least five years...
Maybe you could short-cut through "Upstairs-Downstairs" instead???
That isn't fair.
It shoulda' been sufficient....
"Poldark" is a good compromise, guys could get into it too.
But, if you didn't do "Downton Abbey", well, can't help you.
If you soldiered through that...well, you don't owe this one...
But, let's not sow discord. If mama ain't happy, ain't no one happy.
Actually, the grace of God is defined as unmerited favor.
Therefore, when God chooses those that are to be saved, that is irresistible grace.
For not a single one given to the Son by the Father will be lost.
Therefore, yes, there is irresistible grace.
It is not called or titled as such, but it is that demonstrated.
There is no demonstration nor title of prevenient or preceding grace.
It is a human contrivance of no foundation.
You're just "moving the goalposts"...
You cried that the Scriptures don't use any such phrase as "prevenient Grace", and I explained they also similarly don't use terms like "efficacious" or "irresistible grace" either.
So, basically, your argument was vapid and it sucked.
NOWHERE do the Scriptures use the terms "EFFICACIOUS" or "IRRESISTIBLE GRACE".
You wanted to play this game, so...............
That's what we're gonna play "Agedman"....YAY!
So, that, we don't forget..."Agedman" has a standard he insists upon:
That standard is whether or not the particular phraseology used in a debate is phrased thusly in Scripture:
I can prove inescapably that that is "Agedman's" standard and will now quote him WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD:
And here is "Agedman" explaining for us his standard (and I quote)
Just in case anyone wants to watch someone create an intractable standard of Christ-honoring Theology and then abandon it less than an hour later...here is...
Agedman..
Again quoting, Word-for Word:
Now, please explain why you abandoned that Christ-honoring standard minutes later when it was pointed out that neither "efficacious" or "irresistible grace" are Scriptural terms either....
Fun fact:
The Scriptures (at least KJV) never ACTUALLY describe God as "Sovereign" either...
Calvinists are so easy.
I abandoned no standard.You're just "moving the goalposts"...
You cried that the Scriptures don't use any such phrase as "prevenient Grace", and I explained they also similarly don't use terms like "efficacious" or "irresistible grace" either.
So, basically, your argument was vapid and it sucked.
NOWHERE do the Scriptures use the terms "EFFICACIOUS" or "IRRESISTIBLE GRACE".
You wanted to play this game, so...............
That's what we're gonna play "Agedman"....YAY!
So, that, we don't forget..."Agedman" has a standard he insists upon:
That standard is whether or not the particular phraseology used in a debate is phrased thusly in Scripture:
I can prove inescapably that that is "Agedman's" standard and will now quote him WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD for WORD:
And here is "Agedman" explaining for us his standard (and I quote)
Just in case anyone wants to watch someone create an intractable standard of Christ-honoring Theology and then abandon it less than an hour later...here is...
Agedman..
Again quoting, Word-for Word:
Now, please explain why you abandoned that Christ-honoring standard minutes later when it was pointed out that neither "efficacious" or "irresistible grace" are Scriptural terms either....
Fun fact:
The Scriptures (at least KJV) never ACTUALLY describe God as "Sovereign" either...
Calvinists are so easy.
You did not attend to the standard.
I stated:
"There is NOT as single instance or Scripture for the support of such grace."
You questioned the irresistible grace on the ground that the Scripture doesn't use the term.
Sorry you are so confused, but the term is not the ONLY standard.
The standard is use/example OR direct statement of Scriptures.
There is example of irresistible grace, that unmerited favor, shown in EVERY salvation experience that is given in the Scriptures.
In the statement by Christ, "All the Father GIVES to me WILL come to me."
Do you not see the unmerited favor shown by God in each instance of Salvation?
There is NO Scripture nor EXAMPLE relating to that called prevenient / preceding grace. It is a human construction of the Wesleys'
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