37818
Well-Known Member
James 1:17, ". . . Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. . . ."
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Why Do Conditionalists Contradict Themselves and Pray to God for Salvation?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
Stop! Think! Quit trying to find disagreement with every little thing.
The Spirit of God is the gift of God sent down from heaven.,
God sent his son from above. John 3
He had the Spirit dwelling in his body from his birth.
He emptied himself of the Spirit who went back to the Father.
The Son ascended back to the Father when the Spirit quickened his body at his resurrection 1 Pet 3:18
So the Son is divisible in his humanity. His soul went to paradise in the heart of the earth. His body went to the tomb.
God baptized Israel with the Spirit he sent out from heaven. In the beginning everyone who would believe would receive him in their person.
Then, in Acts 10, he baptized the nations with the Spirit. After that, everyone among the nations who would drink him in by believing the gospel of Christ would be saved by his presence in their bodies.
Believe me when I say that Jesus Christ was redemption for the entire world.
Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them (the gentile house of Cornelius), as on us (the Jews) at the beginning. (in Acts 2)
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Just because he fell on them did not save them. They must receive him by believing.
Guy, this was 40 AD. The first gentile was receiving the perfect gift sent down from the Father of lights. This Bible is logical and makes perfect sense, if a person will just believe the words and honor context. Peter had received the dispensation, the exemption from the ceremonial laws pertaining to Israel just before this happened. It was in Acts 10. It was dramatic. It was testified 3 times, by every member of the Godhead. God wants the blessing of Abraham to fall on the gentiles, but in his own timing, and it did.
Glory to God for his unspeakable gift!!!
37818
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
FYI when I said I was an old baptist I was referring to my age [mid 70's] not my theological position. As for the "semi-Pelagianism" I had to look it up on the net so take that for what it is.
"The term 'Semipelagianism' is usually taken to refer to fifth- and sixth-century teachings of Hadrumetum and Massilian monks. The term originated, however, with sixteenth-century Protestants who used it to describe a view of salvation by human effort in combination with grace."
What human effort do you think that I do that is combined with God's grace to bring about my salvation? What works do you ascribe to me? I know it cannot be my faith as the bible is clear that faith is not a work as it actually holds them in opposition.
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
So you have no grounds for calling me a semi-pelagian. Calvinist’s have decided to call faith a work despite the fact the bible disagrees with them. So the real question is where do Calvinist’s place their trust, in the bible or in their Calvinism.
And we are told
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We also know the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins
Joh 16:8 And when He has come, He {Holy Spirit} will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
But it has to be the person that hears the gospel and is convicted of their sins and responds to them.
Dave do you believe this scripture? I do.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
And if you believe that one you should believe this one also.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Notice the order there Dave, hear the gospel, believe the gospel then one is saved. That should not be a complicated list to follow but Calvinist’s seem to miss it all the time.
Paul even expanded on this for us
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...
Dave I have always said salvation is the gift of God which we receive through His grace on the condition of faith in His son. And this is just what the bible shows us. So what did Ryrie say 1] salvation is a gift of God 2] faith is commanded in order to be saved.
We see Christ Jesus is called the “gift of God” John 4:10
Salvation is called the “gift of God” Romans 6:23 & Ephesians 2:8
and as I have shown faith is required in order to be saved.
Why would I knock Ryrie for saying what I believe. That is not a contradiction as you seem to think it is. Perhaps in Calvinism it is but not for someone the believes the bible.
We are able to look into the mind of God in a limited way as we read scripture and accept them as written. Whether you will take the Holy Spirit at His word or will read them through the Calvinist philosophy is up to you.
Where we differ is that you think faith is a gift of God whereas I say it is the condition of salvation. And so does the bible.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You said you trust what theologians say, that is your option. I will trust what the Holy Spirit says.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I'm following close behind.
Ryrie was using the 16th century definition with the criteria being cooperation with God's grace. In which case faith of your own doing would be the cooperation he was talking about. He did not attack the position, just defined it. I actually agree that faith is not a work even if it does turn out to be totally the responsibility of the individual being saved.
Some do. I don't though. I am guessing but I believe it comes from an expanded view of what saving faith means. To me, by definition, it cannot be a work.
I definitely believe that. The verse doesn't go into whether belief is of yourself or of the Spirit or how the Spirit might work with your conscience to give you/help you have faith. It just states the fact which of course is true.
Ryrie said faith is BOTH a gift from God AND a condition for salvation. The point was that if you don't believe that faith is ALSO a gift from God as well as a condition then you do NOT agree with Ryrie. Which is fine as there is no requirement that you agree with Ryrie.
I say it's both. And so does the Bible. If you don't mind I do want to make one more post concerning G. Campbell Morgan.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair . I had mentioned G. Campbell Morgan in another post and was using him to support a high view of God's sovereignty in salvation. I'm fairly new in reading him so I felt I should add this to be fair. He had a high view of the Holy Spirit being necessary in order for someone to discern spiritual things and he sometimes spoke of faith as being a gift or at least due to an influence of the Holy Spirit when the Spirit was present at certain meetings and so on. But he also said this: "To declare that God has arbitrarily chosen some to salvation, so that they must be saved; and that then He spreads out His hands in the attitude of mercy toward such as cannot be saved, is surely little short of blasphemy".
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do believe that you and I are walking in tandem, we do vary on some things but not many. I like you do seem to bring out the ire of some of the more strident Calvinist's on this board. I think some of them rely to much on Calvin and not enough on the Holy Spirit. Just my though anyway.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
In regard to faith as a gift of God. You will find that when faith is called a gift is being given to those that are already saved. In these verses Paul is pointing out some of the manifestations of spiritual gifts that the church members have received for the benefit of the Christian community. The Holy Spirit has endowed these members with gifts that enhance and promote the life of the church. He {Holy Spirit} works through individual believers and uses them as instruments to fulfill God's purpose.
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
1Co 12:2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The first 3 verses are clearly referring to a time at or prior to coming to Christ and seem to me to be starting out the discussion by saying that they needed to remember that they even got here by the Spirit. Then he goes on to talk about the gifts that come later. Corinthians 12:3 is almost an insurmountable faith as a gift verse.
The key to all this is the will. The will is free if a person can act according to his inclinations. Many things affect our inclinations and thus our wills. Most of our interactions with fellow humans involve doing and saying things that attempt to change the other persons mind so they do by their own will what you want them to do in some area. When it comes to spiritual things this still works on many levels and the Holy Spirit works on many levels. He may indeed use the word, preaching, events and circumstances and convictions. But at some level, unlike other things that pertain to our natural selves, we don't naturally possess what it takes to be inclined to truly and permanently go to Christ in a saving way. I can tempt you with a nice steak if you naturally like steak because of genetics, hunger, culture and so on. I can't convince you to come to Christ because you have no natural inclination to see the value and beauty of the things of God. I might get you to make a profession, temporarily, because you see some advantage in doing so or even that you temporarily get scared about dying - but I can't make you really want Christ. Only the Holy Spirit acting directly on you can do that. And if He does, you will decide, on your own free will, to come to Christ in saving faith. And because you feel like you came on your own, and you did actually, I don't get upset if you say so. But that does not change the fact that the essential reason you truly came was because the ability and inclination to believe was worked in you, by the Holy Spirit. I really believe we are that dependent when it comes to our salvation.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You did notice that Paul called them brethren in vs 1. And in vs 2 & 3 he is contrasting prior and subsequent to salvation. A sinner may mouth the words, but he is not giving a true confession. It is only through the Spirit that a person can honestly say, “Jesus is Lord.” and one only has the Holy Spirit indwelling them subsequent to salvation. So your idea that 1 Corinthians 12:3 is a gift of faith does not stand up to the test.
Paul teaches that the believer in whom God's Spirit dwells joyfully confesses his loyalty to Jesus by acknowledging him as Lord. Baker's New Testament Commentary 1Co 12:3
As you said before you are a Calvinist and as a Calvinist you come to the bible with some built in presuppositions. One is that man does not have an actual free will. Another would be that God determines all that happens. So the inclination that you speak of would under Calvinism be determined by God and thus would not actually be free. Free will means the person has the real ability to choose otherwise. That is the point I have been trying to make all along. While God will influence man by various means it is still the man that has to make the choice, God will not do it for him. You still miss what the bible clearly say in John 16:8-9 the Holy Spirit will convict one of they sins but He does not force them to forgo their sins, the man must do that themselves.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Of course. We know who the letter is to.
There is nothing there that I object to. I know everyone throws terms around but I believe that faith comes before justification. And no one will really acknowledge Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit. Read Robert Traill's "Justification Vindicated. I don't get too upset about the precise order of things. Every theologian seems to have a different take on it. I think you're born again when you believe and as you believe you are born again. Without the Holy Spirit at work in you you or anyone else, will not come to saving faith. If you want to say it's only conviction then fine, but it's effective conviction. And it was essential and decisive - without it you would not have believed. Can it be resisted? Yes. But it wasn't in those who end up believing. To those who end up believing then was it not THE decisive factor? Was it not irresistible in their case?
Of course I do. What's the alternative? To come as if you had never learned anything at all before? I challenge anyone that makes a claim they don't come to anything without a whole load of presuppositions. But I do think you have a point in that I think some take the idea for instance that faith is a gift and have almost an idea of a magic wand action whereas I view it more as faith is worked in you by the Holy Spirit by enlightening you to be able to understand spiritual things and your need, your sinful condition, your jeopardy before God's judgment and He helps you use the word, preaching, things that happen and so on to work faith in you. But yes, YOU have to do the believing. I say it's a gift because I don't think in your natural mindset and with your natural will you or anyone else would ever see any reason to come to Christ by faith. I agree that you certainly SHOULD be able to. You just won't, because you are not inclined to do so. And that is the only reason you won't.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I have to wonder at what you say by times. I read through this a few times:
"Without the Holy Spirit at work in you you or anyone else, will not come to saving faith. If you want to say it's only conviction then fine, but it's effective conviction. And it was essential and decisive - without it you would not have believed. Can it be resisted? Yes. But it wasn't in those who end up believing."
Dave I do not deny the work of the Holy Spirit in peoples lives prior to faith but He is not the only thing that can lead one to trust in God. Do you think the He is the only way? What about God's creation, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word do you not think they are effective?
All of the above including the Holy Spirit are means that God uses to draw people to Himself and all of them can be denied or resisted. And for those that believe then whatever means God used to draw them to Him it was the essential and decisive one.
All I can say re the natural mindset of man is that I think that since we are made in the image of God we do have the real God given ability to make rational choices based on the information that is presented to us. I believe that God is reaching out to us all the time as I do not think anyone is beyond His loving reach.
I must agree with Augustine here:
"He [God] has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in man a free choice of will," and that "God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will,
so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards." (On Grace and Free Will chp. II)
“There is no saint without a past, no sinner without a future.” Augustine
That is why I will speak to anyone anytime they want to understand the love of God and salvation through faith in His son.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
"Brethren be willing to see both sides of the shield of truth. Rise above the babyhood which cannot believe two doctrines until it sees the connecting link. Have you not two eyes, man? Must you needs put one of them out in order to see clearly? Is it impossible to you to use a spiritual stethoscope, and look at two sides of truth until they melt into one, and that one becomes more real and actual because it is made up of two? Many men refuse to see more than one side of a doctrine and persistently fight against anything which is not on it's very surface consistent with their own idea. In the present time I do not find it difficult to believe faith to be the duty of man and the gift of God; and if others cannot accept the two truths, I am not responsible for their rejection of them; my duty is performed when I have honestly born witness to them." C.H. Spurgeon Sermon 979 from the Spurgeon Archive.
@Silverhair . You should read this sermon. What he talks about above in the quote describes you. Actually it also describes the ones who get on here with some kind of new doctrine I've never heard of where your main goal in life seems to be to discourage people from thinking they can just believe in Christ. They should read this sermon too.
@Silverhair . You should read this sermon. What he talks about above in the quote describes you. Actually it also describes the ones who get on here with some kind of new doctrine I've never heard of where your main goal in life seems to be to discourage people from thinking they can just believe in Christ. They should read this sermon too.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dave while I have read and actually do like Spurgeon I can not put his views above the bible. I am sure that you believe that faith is the gift of God but that is not what the bible shows us. Salvation is the gift of God that is received through faith. Man does not come to faith in isolation from the means that I have shown you before. But man is the one that has to believe as God will not do it for him.
Your theological view requires that God has decreed all that will happen so that logically has an impact on how you see salvation obtained. Thankfully I had never heard of C or A or the fight between them until a few years ago so my theological view came from the scriptures not some man telling me what the scriptures meant. You point to the WCF but it is just those men's opinion and it was written through the theological grid of Calvinism. So when they say man has no ability to think on their own or the ability to evaluate information that they have and thus make real choices it really is no surprise. If you are comfortable with the contradictions that are in the theological view and can live with them then do so. I have taken some time and listened to and read Calvinist articles and they just do not fit with the character of God that we find in scripture.
Your last comment does give me pause as it does not sound like Calvinism at all "they can just believe in Christ". Calvinism teaches that you can not believe in Christ unless you are one of the pre-elected ones and then God has to make you believe. But at the same time those that are not of the pre-elect are held responsible for not believing even though under Calvinism it is impossible for them to do so. Calvinism is illogical, if you can not accept that truth I am not responsible for your rejection of it, my duty is performed when I have honestly born witness to that truth.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
It gives you pause because it doesn't fit your presuppositions about Calvinism. Spurgeon was a Calvinist. You know the way he preached. If it doesn't fit your view of Calvinism then could it be possible that YOU are overlooking something? All you guys on here who are big on free will - when you talk to someone about Christianity, do you not do it with the idea of changing their will? What right do you have to attempt that if their own free will must at all costs remain supreme?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It is because they do have a God given free will that we do present the gospel. What do you think God is doing through His creation and conviction etc? God has given man the ability to evaluate information and make choices. The actual question is why do you determinists bother to speak to anyone about salvation? God has already made that choice of saved and lost so your just spinning your wheels. Are you not just giving false hope to those that God has not picked. What Calvin called Evanescent faith, they think they are saved but did not make the cut. According to Calvin, God gave such people a delusion that made them think they were saved, and even feel like they were saved, only to eventually remove this fleeting grace and reveal that they were just deluded hypocrites that God had never regenerated and whose faith, while it seemed very real to them, was not real faith at all. And this is not just Calvin, we have Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, Pink and many more echoing the same view.
As I said I did not know of this C vs A fight until a few years ago so what I know of Calvinism is just what I have read or heard since then. What I say about Calvinism is just what it says about itself. Determinism the TULIP/DoG etc. Calvinist's are quite strident in their efforts to prove their man-made theology is the correct one but are just as reluctant to look at the foundations of their theology which is pagan philosophy.
The reason that your comment "they can just believe in Christ" gave me pause is because it does not fit with your deterministic Calvinism. Which I did point out but you seem to have overlooked. I do not find it difficult to believe faith to be the duty of man and free will the gift of God, remember "...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17 We are told to seek the Lord, this injunction would be of no value if man did not have a free will.
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I think the idea is like Spurgeon said. There are two things going on. There is a level of determinism. But the actions we do and the decisions we make are part of this. All you are doing is demanding that unless you really are the primary and only cause then you refuse to participate. A Calvinist speaks to someone about salvation because it may result in that persons being saved. Yet the Calvinist is aware that if the person is saved, it's because God worked salvation in him. Both are true.
If Calvin put it like that I disagree with him. But I know in the case of those other guys, what they are worried about is the very real possibility of a self deceptive false faith that the Bible warns about too. They tend to recommend self evaluation for signs of regeneration in order to help someone who has been living under this false belief. This self evaluation can be taken too far as Spurgeon warns about in that sermon I mentioned. So does Robert Traill, and Martyn Lloyd-Jones. But Billy Graham even warned about a false faith. There is nothing wrong with that.
It fits very well with the moderate Calvinism of Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, Begg, MacArthur, and 90% of the Reformed or Reformed leaning Baptist churches dotting the landscape in US, Canada, and England. It does seem to offend the Primitive Hardshell Baptists though.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dave you are avoiding the reality of Calvinism as they state it in the WCF. God determines all things so it is not a level of determinism under Calvinism it is everything including all sin and evil. Yes I know they then had to back-peddle to get God of the hook but the question is why would they put Him there in the first place? Their theology came from Calvin not the bible.
Calvin himself defines predestination as "the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man.
The WCF outlines this decree and its ramifications in this way:
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass…
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
Look at your theology as you/Calvinist's present it
1] God decrees all things not just some things
2] God has chosen who will be saved and only them
3] Man has no free will but is responsible for sin that God determined that he commit
It does not matter how much paint you put on that wall it will not cover up the stain.
How you can conclude that I think man has to be the primary and only cause of ones salvation just shows that you are not reading or are ignoring what I have posted. I am fully aware that Calvinist's will speak to people about salvation but the question you avoid is, why? Man, under Calvinism, has no input to their salvation not even faith as that has to be given to them by God after they are saved. So the only logical reason that one can find as to why Calvinist's preach the gospel is to make themselves feel good as it can have no real life changing impact on the person they are preaching to. It has all be decided before they were even born, well at least according to Calvinism.
Funny hoe many Calvinist's will pick and choose what parts of Calvinism they hold to and jettison the rest. But they all seem to want the TULIP/DoG but then overlook the logical outcome of those.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your choice of John 1:12-14 must have been a mistake on your part as it actually proves what you were denying.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Man cannot save himself only God can save which is just what the text shows and He saves those that believe in His son.
KenH
Well-Known Member
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The reader can see that in verse 13 that "were born" is in the past tense - it precedes the "believe" in verse 12.
Furthermore, verse 13 goes on to totally annihilate the idea that anything done by man precedes regeneration -
"not of blood" - not based one's parents or one's race or one's ethnicity or one's nationality.
"nor of the will of the flesh" - as 1 Corinthians 2:14 states, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
"nor of the will of man" - one cannot through his own efforts simply will someone into being saved and bring it about - not a spouse, not a child, not a parent, not a friend, not even for himself.
"but of God" - as Jonah stated this in Jonah 2:9, "Salvation is of the Lord."
John 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The reader can see that in verse 13 that "were born" is in the past tense - it precedes the "believe" in verse 12.
Furthermore, verse 13 goes on to totally annihilate the idea that anything done by man precedes regeneration -
"not of blood" - not based one's parents or one's race or one's ethnicity or one's nationality.
"nor of the will of the flesh" - as 1 Corinthians 2:14 states, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
"nor of the will of man" - one cannot through his own efforts simply will someone into being saved and bring it about - not a spouse, not a child, not a parent, not a friend, not even for himself.
"but of God" - as Jonah stated this in Jonah 2:9, "Salvation is of the Lord."