Why Do Men Hate God's Sovereignty in Election

[JonShaff]

It is an illustration. I don't know the motive of the man's heart. But God does and He says it was wicked.

so a lost man's motive to save a child from drowning is wicked. You, sir, are irrational. So in a reactionary act to save a life, a wicked man says, "oh yea, I'm gonna be on TV tonight!" Everytime. You let your theological framework of lunacy dictate your every statement. Very sad. Christ can set you free, my friend.

 

[MB]

It is an illustration. I don't know the motive of the man's heart. But God does and He says it was wicked.

Truth is you don't know much about God at all.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is an illustration. I don't know the motive of the man's heart. But God does and He says it was wicked.

Please show that in scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Truth is you don't know much about God at all.
MB

That’s a provocative statement! Actually provocative and arrogant. This man is studied and has intellectual prowess and has dedicated his life to the Lord yet you discredit him!?! Please tell me, what are your academic and theological credentials?

 

[TCassidy]

Please show that in scripture.

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Oh! I just realized you were probably talking about the man who saved the child from drowning, not the man plowing his field.

I can't know the man's motive for saving the child. I hope it is what anyone would do. But I do know that God says the heart is wicked so I cannot discount the possibility there was an ulterior motive.

 

[thatbrian]

Men wish to steal God's glory, and that is the essence of sin.

I understand because I used to be among those who did the same thing. I knew nothing of grace until I saw that God chose a sinner like me to be His son.

It boggles the mind how people think that God left the salvation of men up to chance.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Oh! I just realized you were probably talking about the man who saved the child from drowning, not the man plowing his field.

I can't know the man's motive for saving the child. I hope it is what anyone would do. But I do know that God says the heart is wicked so I cannot discount the possibility there was an ulterior motive.

So you feel that an atheist person can not be an honorable and decent person without being a saved individual?!? Conversely I can show you people who claim Jesus who are dirty rotten scoundrels in their day to day lives. Am I to conclude they are phony Christians in name only?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have always gone by the dictum “you will know them by their fruit.”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Men wish to steal God's glory, and that is the essence of sin.

I understand because I used to be among those who did the same thing. I knew nothing of grace until I saw that God chose a sinner like me to be His son.

It boggles the mind how people think that God left the salvation of men up to chance.

Does water decide to be wet and do flowers decide to bloom?

So how do sinners decide to become saved? The function & order of life is because of Gods choice.

 

[thatbrian]

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Oh! I just realized you were probably talking about the man who saved the child from drowning, not the man plowing his field.

I can't know the man's motive for saving the child. I hope it is what anyone would do. But I do know that God says the heart is wicked so I cannot discount the possibility there was an ulterior motive.

On this point, I would differ from you.

My Christianity is based on the righteousness of Christ, not me. (Which I know full well you understand) Since my righteousness is foreign, and I am a filthy rotten sinner, I know for a fact that there are many, many unsaved men who are better husbands than I, are better neighbors than I, are better at caring for the poor than I.

I'm not threatened by the fact that there are unsaved men who are morally superior to me because my weakness is covered by His strength. In short, I need a Savior. This is not theoretical. I NEED a Savior.

 

[TCassidy]

On this point, I would differ from you.

My Christianity is based on the righteousness of Christ, not me. (Which I know full well you understand) Since my righteousness is foreign, and I am a filthy rotten sinner, I know for a fact that there are many, many unsaved men who are better husbands than I, are better neighbors than I, are better at caring for the poor than I.

I'm not threatened by the fact that there are unsaved men who are morally superior to me because my weakness is covered by His strength. In short, I need a Savior. This is not theoretical. I NEED a Savior.

Yes. I agree. My being saved doesn't make me better than the unsaved. It just makes me saved.

So, what do you disagree with?

 

[Yeshua1]

Men typically have no problem with God's sovereignty in nature. He may rule the fish in the ocean and the waves of the sea. . . Men typically have no problem with God's sovereignty in governments. They allow Him to rule over the outcome of wars, the location of borders, and even US election results! However, when it comes to the clay that He has formed into men, He is bound by their actions and "free will". He must always and only act in the spaces that men's will leave open for Him to act in.

Men hate the idea of God's sovereignty in election because they hate the idea of God's sovereignty over them.

Do you allow for God's sovereignty except over your will? Is that the line in the sand that the King of Kings must not cross?

Interesting, as paul addresses that in Romans about how we should not try to second guess Him and His ways, correct?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Interesting, as paul addresses that in Romans about how we should not try to second guess Him and His ways, correct?

Did Moses hit the rock wit his staff once or twice?

 

[TCassidy]

So you don’t feel that an art guest can be an honorable and decent person without being a saved individual?!?

Of course unsaved people can act in a decent and honorable way.

Conversely I can show you people who claim Jesus who are dirty rotting scoundrels in their day to day lives.

I know several of them.

Am I to conclude they are phony Christians in name only?

I don't know. I think any Christian can be carnal. But I am not qualified to judge their salvation.

I have always gone by the dictum “you will know them by their fruit.”

Yes, a tree is known by its fruit. But fruit is not always obvious. I had an olive tree in my back yard in San Diego. The tree was over 15 years old before it bore fruit. But it was still an olive tree.

 

[thatbrian]

So how do sinners decide to become saved?

The function & order of life is because of Gods choice.

Yes. I agree. My being saved doesn't make me better than the unsaved. It just makes me saved.

So, what do you disagree with?

It looked like the only explanation you had for a man doing a good act would be an ulterior motive, and I would agree that in many, many cases, that is true, but I don't think it always is.

 

[thatbrian]

Interesting, as paul addresses that in Romans about how we should not try to second guess Him and His ways, correct?

Sorry, I didn't understand your question.

 

[InTheLight]

I'm sorry but none of that makes any sense. Could you restate it in the context of my post?

No, it's perfectly understandable.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did Moses hit the rock wit his staff once or twice?

He sinned against God, by taking the glory for himself!

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry, I didn't understand your question.

Paul point about the Potter and the Clay!

 

[thatbrian]

He sinned against God, by taking the glory for himself!

Christ help us, we all do!