Why Do Men Hate God's Sovereignty in Election

[TCassidy]

Calvinist say God is Sovereign and then restrict God from giving men the right to choose who they will serve.

Another falsehood. All people make choices every day. Even choices regarding whom they will serve.

What you can't seem to understand is that people can only make choices relative to their natures.

When I was in high school, (1961), a fellow student wanted to go out for track but he had lost a leg in a mowing accident when he was 6. He could not run. Going out for track was out of the question. It was no longer in his nature to be able to run.

The same is true of the lost man. He does not desire to serve God. He serves only himself.

There idea of Sovereign is limited to the false doctrine of Calvinism.

Do not blaspheme God.

 

[JonShaff]

Matt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Also,

Matthew 7:16-17 is in regards to FALSE TEACHERS.

Man, you guys are BAD at proof texting. And you were a seminary prof? That's not a cheap shot, I'm sincere in my concern.

 

[TCassidy]

So a lost person saving a child from drowning is evil, got it. You make no sense.

So Christ was wrong in the verses I posted? A corrupt tree CAN bring forth good fruit?

Ask yourself the question: why did the man save the child?

Let's use the bible (novel idea!) to find our answer.

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

It seems pretty obvious why a high (haughty) look is sin. And why a proud heart is sin. But plowing is good, hard work! How can good hard work be sin?

Let's examine it.

Why does the wicked man plow his field? So he can plant his crops.

Why does he want to plant crops? So he can eat.

Why does he want to eat? So he can keep up his strength.

Why does he want to keep up his strength? So he can continue his rebellion against God!

Can you see the motive of the man who prevented the child from drowning? Is it 100% pure?

 

[TCassidy]

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Care to weasel out of that one?

Yes. Evil people can give good gifts. Why do they do that?

 

[TCassidy]

Also,

Matthew 7:16-17 is in regards to FALSE TEACHERS.

Man, you guys are BAD at proof texting. And you were a seminary prof? That's not a cheap shot, I'm sincere in my concern.

So, evil people are teachers of truth? How does that work?

 

[JonShaff]

So, evil people are teachers of truth? How does that work?

I just gave you the context of the passage you quoted. False prophets...

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

[TCassidy]

I just gave you the context of the passage you quoted. False prophets...

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Yes. The opposite of a false prophet is a true prophet. How is a lost man a true prophet?

 

[Revmitchell]

None of those show how God is Sovereign in something you control. Care to try again?

Yes they do whether you like it or not.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes. The opposite of a false prophet is a true prophet. How is a lost man a true prophet?

time to give it up. You are making shipwreck of your faith.

 

[InTheLight]

Another falsehood. All people make choices every day. Even choices regarding whom they will serve.

What you can't seem to understand is that people can only make choices relative to their natures.

When I was in high school, (1961), a fellow student wanted to go out for track but he had lost a leg in a mowing accident when he was 6. He could not run. Going out for track was out of the question. It was no longer in his nature to be able to run.

The same is true of the lost man. He does not desire to serve God. He serves only himself.

You cannot make valid comparisons between physical abilities and spiritual abilities. Neither can you make silly comparisons between physical impossibilities and spiritual abilities.

 

[TCassidy]

You cannot make valid comparisons between physical abilities and spiritual abilities. Neither can you make silly comparisons between physical impossibilities and spiritual abilities.

I'm sorry but none of that makes any sense. Could you restate it in the context of my post?

 

[TCassidy]

time to give it up. You are making shipwreck of your faith.

All I did was ask you a question. If you can't answer it just admit you can't answer it,

If you would like to hear it I would be glad to explain how I believe regarding that subject.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, not the greatest, but certainly one aspect of His Sovereignty. We all make choices every day. Good people (in whom dwells the Holy Spirit) make good (we hope) choices and evil people make evil choices. Each person makes choices according to their nature.

nature....which is sinful, right

 

[MB]

All I did was ask you a question. If you can't answer it just admit you can't answer it,

If you would like to hear it I would be glad to explain how I believe regarding that subject.

Here's an answer God is never referred to as Sovereign in scripture He is all mighty. There are no restrictions placed on God. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. You're saying God can't save or have mercy on who He pleases to have mercy. Your doctrine is a lie.
MB

 

[JonShaff]

All I did was ask you a question. If you can't answer it just admit you can't answer it,

If you would like to hear it I would be glad to explain how I believe regarding that subject.

You aren't making any sense. That passage pertains to false prophets producing bad fruit, as a true prophet would produce Good fruit. Simple comparison there. Christ is that True prophet who produces good fruit, true Believers, good works.

 

[MB]

You aren't making any sense. That passage pertains to false prophets producing bad fruit, as a true prophet would produce Good fruit. Simple comparison there. Christ is that True prophet who produces good fruit, true Believers, good works.

A men brother. As always this guy takes everything out of context.
MB

 

[TCassidy]

You aren't making any sense. That passage pertains to false prophets producing bad fruit, as a true prophet would produce Good fruit. Simple comparison there. Christ is that True prophet who produces good fruit, true Believers, good works.

Yes, and unbelievers produce bad fruit. I don't see the problem.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So Christ was wrong in the verses I posted? A corrupt tree CAN bring forth good fruit?

Ask yourself the question: why did the man save the child?

Let's use the bible (novel idea!) to find our answer.

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

It seems pretty obvious why a high (haughty) look is sin. And why a proud heart is sin. But plowing is good, hard work! How can good hard work be sin?

Let's examine it.

Why does the wicked man plow his field? So he can plant his crops.

Why does he want to plant crops? So he can eat.

Why does he want to eat? So he can keep up his strength.

Why does he want to keep up his strength? So he can continue his rebellion against God!

Can you see the motive of the man who prevented the child from drowning? Is it 100% pure?

Paragraph 4 is an assumption not a solid motivational understanding.

 

[TCassidy]

nature....which is sinful, right

The lost man's nature is certainly in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The saved man now has, added to the old man, the new man in Christ. What used to be one sided, only evil continually.

But the new man battles against the old man, and our Christian life becomes a battle between the old and the new. Between good and evil. And the evil often wins by sheer experience!

Genesis 6:5 Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of man’s heart was continually only evil.

Proverbs 17:11 An evil man seeks only rebellion; therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.

 

[TCassidy]

Paragraph 4 is an assumption not a solid motivational understanding.

It is an illustration. I don't know the motive of the man's heart. But God does and He says it was wicked.