Why do non cals say cals teach regeneration before faith?

[Forest]

What??

Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to deliverances (salvations) that we receive here in this world and not to eternal salvation. The inspired word of God is written to his elect, his sheep, for instruction as to how they should live their lives here in this world. Christ tells us in John 6:37-41 why he came into this world, and that was to die as a sacrifice for the sins of those that his Father choose before the foundation of the world and Gave to his Son. Those of God's elect were all eternally saved by Christ's work on the cross and will live with him in heaven without the loss of one. God, after his elect are born into this world, quickens them to a spiritual life (born again). God quickens only those of his elect. The scriptures inform us of many ways that we are delivered (saved) here in this world, such as we are delivered here in this world many times by our obedience to his word.

 

[gb93433]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. You cannot have faith until you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, however, the old testement children of God were said to have the Spirit upon them. Either way, faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.

Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

 

[Forest]

Scripture disagrees with you:

John 3:15
that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 3:15 says that whosoever believeth (present tense, not WILL believe). John 3:36, believes (present tense, not WILL believe). Same in John 3:16. John 6:40, is talking about "all that the Father has given him" verse 37.

 

[Forest]

Who has made a claim in this thread, or any other thread for that matter, that eternal salvation is by works of man? I sure haven't, nor have I seen anyone else made this claim.

Many on this forum believe that they have to take some kind of action of themselves to receive eternal salvation and that is salvation by works, actions.

 

[Forest]

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous that is the Gospel of Calvinism that Spurgeon preached.

This is what the scripture says.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


1 Peter 1:
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[Some early manuscripts from a pure heart] 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[Isaiah 40:6-8 (see Septuagint)]

And this is the word that was preached to you.



Philippians 2:
Do Everything Without Grumbling
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[Deut. 32:5] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

1 John 1
The Incarnation of the Word of Life
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[Some manuscripts your] joy complete.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

The second letter of Paul's was written to the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia. If they are members of the church and saints, they have already been regenerated. All of the inspired letters of the writers of the scriptures are directed to God's elect children. The first letter of Peter's was written, verse 2, to God's elect. God's children are to reconcile themselves back to God by turning away from their old sinful ways to trying to be obedient to God's word and by doing so, Phil 2:12, which was written to all the saints in Christ Jesus wich are at Philipi, they are working out their own salvation. This is called conversion, not regeneration because they were already regenerated. 1 John, Many of God's elect children that have already been regenerated do not have fellowship with God. 1 John is a plea for fellowship with God and not a plea for being eternally saved. Acts 4:12, Peter stated it plain and simple, that there is no other way by which man can be saved except by the redemptive power of Jesus upon the cross for all those that God gave him. Eternal salvation was accomplished for all those that God gave to Christ and Christ said he would not lose one of them, but raise them up at the last day, John 6:37-41. Regeneration before spiritual faith is very definantly taught in the scriptures.

 

[Forest]

What??

Matt 11:28, The rest is not talking about eternal rest, but a rest that his children can enjoy here in this world if they deny themselves (give up on holding to the idea that their own righteousness will save them eternally) and he will give them rest from the burden of relying upon their works.

 

[Forest]

The only way ANYONE can understand the truth of the doctrine of Christ is only by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. That revelation is called The Word of God, and it is contained in the scripture. There is NO EXCUSE for those who have the clear revelation. They DO understand it and are responsible for their response to it.

The natural man will never understand spiritual things until God quickens him from a death (spiritual death) in sins to a life in Christ, 1 Cor 2:14 & Eph 2:5.

 

[Forest]

Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

The scriptures tell us that only his sheep hear his voice and if they are his sheep they are his elect.

 

[Skandelon]

The natural man will never understand spiritual things until God quickens him from a death (spiritual death) in sins to a life in Christ, 1 Cor 2:14 & Eph 2:5.

Neither of those verses say that. They say that men are dead in sins and need the Spirit to discern the mysteries of God, which he does by sending men like Paul and the other apostles to write inspired truth in human language so all can read it and understand it. If the average guy can't understand the revelation of God then he has an excuse for his unbelief. (Rm 1)

 

[gb93433]

Many on this forum believe that they have to take some kind of action of themselves to receive eternal salvation and that is salvation by works, actions.

Salvation is in Jesus. Who ever said anything different. He is salvation and there is no salvation in any other. I think you are confused about salvation and the proper response to God.

1 Jn 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

[convicted1]

Salvation is in Jesus. Who ever said anything differen? He is salvation and there is no salvation in any other. I think you are confused about salvation and the proper response to God.

1 Jn 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[psalms109:31]

The second letter of Paul's was written to the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia. If they are members of the church and saints, they have already been regenerated. All of the inspired letters of the writers of the scriptures are directed to God's elect children. The first letter of Peter's was written, verse 2, to God's elect. God's children are to reconcile themselves back to God by turning away from their old sinful ways to trying to be obedient to God's word and by doing so, Phil 2:12, which was written to all the saints in Christ Jesus wich are at Philipi, they are working out their own salvation. This is called conversion, not regeneration because they were already regenerated. 1 John, Many of God's elect children that have already been regenerated do not have fellowship with God. 1 John is a plea for fellowship with God and not a plea for being eternally saved. Acts 4:12, Peter stated it plain and simple, that there is no other way by which man can be saved except by the redemptive power of Jesus upon the cross for all those that God gave him. Eternal salvation was accomplished for all those that God gave to Christ and Christ said he would not lose one of them, but raise them up at the last day, John 6:37-41. Regeneration before spiritual faith is very definantly taught in the scriptures.

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous.

All life begins with the word of God, it is not within us, it is in the word of our God through Jesus Christ which we are His messenger.

I think it is a carnal thing to have life before the word, it is not taught in scripture, you have to force in it by human reasoning.

We are born again through the word of God, not already born again. If you do not have the words of life, you have no life in you, you are born again through the enduring word of God. You can't have it any plainer than that.

If the word of God through Jesus Christ was never spoken to Saul, he would be dead today with no life in him. We would have never heard from Paul.

The elect are taught by the Father which some emphasize on no one can come to Jesus until they are drawn by the Father, but they can't be drawn without the word of life, to be taught by God.

Jesus tells us His words are Spirit and life and that His words are not His own but the Father who sent Him.

The truth and the answer is not in human reasoning about who are the ones drawn to Jesus by the Father it is in this scripture.

John 6:
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is even for the ones who were waiting for the one who will come and crush the serpents head. Who were not hoping on what they can do, but on the one who will come will do. We are hoping on the one who has already come.

1 Peter 1:
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

"His fruit was sweet to my taste." --Song of Solomon 2:3

"Faith, in the Scripture, is spoken of under the emblem of all the senses. It is sight: "Look unto me and be ye saved." It is hearing: "Hear, and your soul shall live." Faith is smelling: "All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia"; "thy name is as ointment poured forth." Faith is spiritual touch. By this faith the woman came behind and touched the hem of Christ's garment, and by this we handle the things of the good word of life. Faith is equally the spirit's taste. "How sweet are Thy words to my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my lips." "Except a man eat my flesh," saith Christ, "and drink my blood, there is no life in him."

This "taste" is faith in one of its highest operations. One of the first performances of faith is hearing. We hear the voice of God, not with the outward ear alone, but with the inward ear; we hear it as God's Word, and we believe it to be so; that is the "hearing" of faith. Then our mind looketh upon the truth as it is presented to us; that is to say, we understand it, we perceive its meaning; that is the "seeing" of faith. Next we discover its preciousness; we begin to admire it, and find how fragrant it is; that is faith in its "smell." Then we appropriate the mercies which are prepared for us in Christ; that is faith in its "touch." Hence follow the enjoyments, peace, delight, communion; which are faith in its "taste." Any one of these acts of faith is saving. To hear Christ's voice as the sure voice of God in the soul will save us; but that which gives true enjoyment is the aspect of faith wherein Christ, by holy taste, is received into us, and made, by inward and spiritual apprehension of His sweetness and preciousness, to be the food of our souls. It is then we sit "under His shadow with great delight," and find His fruit sweet to our taste. "

C.H Spurgeon

 

[Forest]

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous.

All life begins with the word of God, it is not within us, it is in the word of our God through Jesus Christ which we are His messenger.

I think it is a carnal thing to have life before the word, it is not taught in scripture, you have to force in it by human reasoning.

We are born again through the word of God, not already born again. If you do not have the words of life, you have no life in you, you are born again through the enduring word of God. You can't have it any plainer than that.

If the word of God through Jesus Christ was never spoken to Saul, he would be dead today with no life in him. We would have never heard from Paul.

The elect are taught by the Father which some emphasize on no one can come to Jesus until they are drawn by the Father, but they can't be drawn without the word of life, to be taught by God.

Jesus tells us His words are Spirit and life and that His words are not His own but the Father who sent Him.

The truth and the answer is not in human reasoning about who are the ones drawn to Jesus by the Father it is in this scripture.

John 6:
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is even for the ones who were waiting for the one who will come and crush the serpents head. Who were not hoping on what they can do, but on the one who will come will do. We are hoping on the one who has already come.

1 Peter 1:
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

"His fruit was sweet to my taste." --Song of Solomon 2:3

"Faith, in the Scripture, is spoken of under the emblem of all the senses. It is sight: "Look unto me and be ye saved." It is hearing: "Hear, and your soul shall live." Faith is smelling: "All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia"; "thy name is as ointment poured forth." Faith is spiritual touch. By this faith the woman came behind and touched the hem of Christ's garment, and by this we handle the things of the good word of life. Faith is equally the spirit's taste. "How sweet are Thy words to my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my lips." "Except a man eat my flesh," saith Christ, "and drink my blood, there is no life in him."

This "taste" is faith in one of its highest operations. One of the first performances of faith is hearing. We hear the voice of God, not with the outward ear alone, but with the inward ear; we hear it as God's Word, and we believe it to be so; that is the "hearing" of faith. Then our mind looketh upon the truth as it is presented to us; that is to say, we understand it, we perceive its meaning; that is the "seeing" of faith. Next we discover its preciousness; we begin to admire it, and find how fragrant it is; that is faith in its "smell." Then we appropriate the mercies which are prepared for us in Christ; that is faith in its "touch." Hence follow the enjoyments, peace, delight, communion; which are faith in its "taste." Any one of these acts of faith is saving. To hear Christ's voice as the sure voice of God in the soul will save us; but that which gives true enjoyment is the aspect of faith wherein Christ, by holy taste, is received into us, and made, by inward and spiritual apprehension of His sweetness and preciousness, to be the food of our souls. It is then we sit "under His shadow with great delight," and find His fruit sweet to our taste. "

C.H Spurgeon

Everyone that is quickened to a new life were prior to that quickening, dead (spiritually dead) in sins, Eph 2:2-3, and the spiritually dead person does not have spiritual faith, in fact he will not, and cannot descern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14. Life comes before action.

 

[Forest]

Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

All mankind cannot hear the voice of God (the word). My "sheep" hear my voice, and I know them, and they come unto me. The natural man is not of his sheep and cannot hear his voice. 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

Neither of those verses say that. They say that men are dead in sins and need the Spirit to discern the mysteries of God, which he does by sending men like Paul and the other apostles to write inspired truth in human language so all can read it and understand it. If the average guy can't understand the revelation of God then he has an excuse for his unbelief. (Rm 1)

Only his sheep hear his voice and come to him. The natural man, in 1 Cor 2:14 is not of his sheep and can not hear his voice, his word.

 

[Forest]

Salvation is in Jesus. Who ever said anything different. He is salvation and there is no salvation in any other. I think you are confused about salvation and the proper response to God.

1 Jn 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

God has given Jesus power over all flesh, that he might give eternal life to as many as God has given him.

 

[psalms109:31]

Everyone that is quickened to a new life were prior to that quickening, dead (spiritually dead) in sins, Eph 2:2-3, and the spiritually dead person does not have spiritual faith, in fact he will not, and cannot descern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14. Life comes before action.

It is Jesus who opens our eyes and it starts the day we drink His blood and eat His flesh, it is Him who brings life with in our being. It was never there before the words of life.

We do not have to understand we trust in Him and He opens our eyes.

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous.

Jesus is our life we have no life apart from Him.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

2 Corinthians 3:
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Proverbs 3 :
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

"Let the last lesson be see the all-importance of close communion with Jesus. Union with Christ makes you live; keep up your enjoyment of that union, that you may clearly perceive and enjoy your life. Begin this year with the prayer, "Nearer to thee, my Lord, nearer to thee." Think much of the spiritual life and less of this poor carnal life, which will be soon be over. Go to the source of life for an increase of spiritual life. Go to Jesus. Think of him more than you have done, pray to him more; use his name more believingly in your supplications. Serve him better, and seek to grow up into his likeness in all things. Make an advance this year. Life is a growing thing. Your life only grows by getting nearer to Christ; therefore, get under the beams of the Sun of the Righteousness. Time brings you nearer to him, you will soon be where he is in heaven; let grace bring you nearer also. You taste more of his love as fresh mercies come, give him more of your love, more of your fellowship. Abide in him, and may his word abide in you henceforth and for ever, and all shall be to his glory. Amen."

C. H. Spurgeon

 

[Skandelon]

Hey Forest your record is stuck on the 1 Cor 2:14 rut. That verse has been explained to you and you have yet to engage in a discussion on the subject. I guess we could just quote John 3:16 over and over if you think that merry-go-round would be beneficial.

 

[webdog]

Amazing one Bible verse is the answer to every post on this board.

 

[Skandelon]

Amazing one Bible verse is the answer to every post on this board.

I know! Especially a verse that simply affirms something we ALL accept, which is that God must explain deep mysterious truths to mankind in order for us to really understand them. What baffles me is why most Calvinists deny that the means God used by His Spirit to inspire divinely appointed messengers to write the very WORDS of God is somehow insufficient for understanding. Apparently natural men can look at God's creation and understand God's eternal attributes and divine nature (ref. Rom 1), but he can't read the clear words of the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel and understand them. Weird! :smilewinkgrin: