The above is Scarlett's #4 post. It is worth repeating.
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Why Do People Go ro Church
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
- Start date
I go to church because it is what God calls believers to do. It is one of the places I'm fed, I can serve the Lord, I can be amongst other believers in one accord, worshipping our wonderful Creator. It is a place where I can invite people to learn more about God and the Christian walk, introduce them to some wonderful people (broken people but wonderful none-the-less). It is the place where the ordinances of the Christian faith can be practiced - baptism and the Lord' Supper. I go to church because I love being with my "family" at "home".
Amen and Amen!
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Do you have a list on non-negotiables that you need in a church? I think you have those, but are they personal or Biblical? Maybe you need to determine what standards you have for a church are biblical and which are just personal preferences.
I know this means a lot to you because this is a constant comment of yours (and that is NOT sarcastic).
I know this means a lot to you because this is a constant comment of yours (and that is NOT sarcastic).
A pastor at a church I used to attend had a term for this--people that go to church looking for that "ecclesiastical tingle".
Not at all....what I can give. But if I have to do so without support, then what good is the church?
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Yes, as a matter of fact I do...all are biblical.
Maybe but all Ive experienced is " ecclesiastical neuropathy " :smilewinkgrin:
Hey....I like that ....very descriptive (involves pain & eventual deadening).....thanks
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Rev. Mitchell, in his post #5 on this thread hit upon something about which I've often wondered, namely whether or not a person should also include the verses in Hebrews 10 that follow Hebrews 10:25.
In my studies in Hebrews, I tend to divide this book into two main sections with commentaries under both main sections--as follows:
I. The Superiority of Christ (1:1 - 10:18)
A. Christ is greater than the angels.
B. Christ is greater than Moses.
C. Christ is greater than the OT priesthood.
D. The New Testament is greater than the
Old Testament.
Commentary:
The superiority of Christ over everyone
and everything is clearly demonstrated
by the author. Christianity supersedes
all other religions and can never be
surpassed. Where can one find anything
better than Christ? Living in Christ is
having the best there is in life. All
competing religions are deceptions or
cheap imitations.
II. The Superiority of Faith (10:19 - 13:25)
Commentary: Jews who'd
become Christians in the 1st century
were tempted to fall back into Judaism
because of uncertainty, the security of
custom, and persecution.
Today believers are also tempted to
fall back into legalism, fulfilling
minimum religious requirements rather
than pressing on in genuine faith. We
must strive to live by faith each day.
That being said, I tend to believe that when one reads Hebrews 10, he should not stop at just Hebrews 10:25 in his reading, but rather should continue on reading the verses that follow it--at least to Hebrews 10:31.
IMHO, some folks sometimes forget that the original audience of Hebrews was to, as its title states, to Hebrew [i.e., Jewish Christians]. Most scholars seem to think this 13-chapter letter was probably written before A.D. 70, less than 40 years after Christ's resurrection, and that the temple's system of sacrifices were most likely still being practiced because the temple was still standing at the time these Jewish-Christians received the letter addressed to them.
Since Christ had promised His followers in Matthew (a gospel that was primarily addressed to the Jews at that time) that He'd be with them, and Luke, in Acts 1:11, records the questions of His followers that led one to believe that they thought Christ would return to the earth, possibly in their own lifetimes, it's easy to see why the Jewish-Christians to which Hebrews was originally addressed would be inclined to not want to meet together ("as the manner of some [i.e., 1st century Jewish-Christians] is").
If you'll recall, Christ's disciples did the same thing for several days after His was crucified.
While it's been at least a good 2,500 years since Christ left this earth, here in America it seems that some folks still have, what I once heard a preacher call it, a "lone ranger" concept of Christian living and testimony. He said that some folks either choose to not even fellowship in a corporate local church service venue at all; or if they do happen to occasionally visit the services of a local church....that's ALL they will do!
Don't expect them to actually become members of that local church, because then they'd feel somewhat committed to serve in one of that local church's outreach ministries. IOW, the concept of actually being committed to that 'lone ranger's' local church is a concept that's totally foreign to that person.
This is why I firmly believe that one should read the verses immediately following Hebrews 10:25, especially 10:31, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
In my studies in Hebrews, I tend to divide this book into two main sections with commentaries under both main sections--as follows:
I. The Superiority of Christ (1:1 - 10:18)
A. Christ is greater than the angels.
B. Christ is greater than Moses.
C. Christ is greater than the OT priesthood.
D. The New Testament is greater than the
Old Testament.
Commentary:
The superiority of Christ over everyone
and everything is clearly demonstrated
by the author. Christianity supersedes
all other religions and can never be
surpassed. Where can one find anything
better than Christ? Living in Christ is
having the best there is in life. All
competing religions are deceptions or
cheap imitations.
II. The Superiority of Faith (10:19 - 13:25)
Commentary: Jews who'd
become Christians in the 1st century
were tempted to fall back into Judaism
because of uncertainty, the security of
custom, and persecution.
Today believers are also tempted to
fall back into legalism, fulfilling
minimum religious requirements rather
than pressing on in genuine faith. We
must strive to live by faith each day.
That being said, I tend to believe that when one reads Hebrews 10, he should not stop at just Hebrews 10:25 in his reading, but rather should continue on reading the verses that follow it--at least to Hebrews 10:31.
IMHO, some folks sometimes forget that the original audience of Hebrews was to, as its title states, to Hebrew [i.e., Jewish Christians]. Most scholars seem to think this 13-chapter letter was probably written before A.D. 70, less than 40 years after Christ's resurrection, and that the temple's system of sacrifices were most likely still being practiced because the temple was still standing at the time these Jewish-Christians received the letter addressed to them.
Since Christ had promised His followers in Matthew (a gospel that was primarily addressed to the Jews at that time) that He'd be with them, and Luke, in Acts 1:11, records the questions of His followers that led one to believe that they thought Christ would return to the earth, possibly in their own lifetimes, it's easy to see why the Jewish-Christians to which Hebrews was originally addressed would be inclined to not want to meet together ("as the manner of some [i.e., 1st century Jewish-Christians] is").
If you'll recall, Christ's disciples did the same thing for several days after His was crucified.
While it's been at least a good 2,500 years since Christ left this earth, here in America it seems that some folks still have, what I once heard a preacher call it, a "lone ranger" concept of Christian living and testimony. He said that some folks either choose to not even fellowship in a corporate local church service venue at all; or if they do happen to occasionally visit the services of a local church....that's ALL they will do!
Don't expect them to actually become members of that local church, because then they'd feel somewhat committed to serve in one of that local church's outreach ministries. IOW, the concept of actually being committed to that 'lone ranger's' local church is a concept that's totally foreign to that person.
This is why I firmly believe that one should read the verses immediately following Hebrews 10:25, especially 10:31, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Wow! I never knew anyone who didn't have some preferences that while certainly not anti Biblical were just personal preferences. Such as wanting hymns vs. Gaither music vs. contemporary.
I guess God will then absolve you from doing what He commands everyone else to do.
Obviously you've haven't experienced some of the strange reasons I've had given to me from some Christians for why they choose not to attend the regularly scheduled corporate worship services of their local church.
Would you believe that one Christian lady said that she couldn't possibly attend the evening services at her church because "My favorite TV cooking show comes on at that time."
I'm sure that Christ will overlook that lady's excuses for never attending her local church's evening services for the reason she gave! :thumbs:
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I've been in f/t ministry for 35 years, so I've heard most all of them.
I always think of the story of the guy who wanted to borrow his neighbor's lawn mower. The neighbor said "NO" So he asked why? He said "Because today is Monday."
"What's Monday got to do with it?"
"Nothing, but any excuse is good enough when I really don't want to."
So in other words you do believe I'm going to hell for not going to church regularly. :smilewinkgrin:
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Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I will take your answer as sarcastic. You say you are a believer in Christ so I will take your word on it. I just think you have a convenient excuse for disobeying the Bible.
Unlike me.....Id tell ya if I didn't want to go.... and I would just walk to the bathroom or out to the car if I didn't like the music. But those things don't preclude me from worship..... I worship Christ constantly. when I get up, thru my work a day, in my conversation with people, In what I read & write.
Right now I'm visiting with a PCA church in another town 20 minutes from me. Not my first choice .... Id much rather it be a Baptist Church. The jury is out as to if they will ever do anything for the community....that will take me time to evaluate.....but the new pastor told me he will put initiatives together....so for the time being, I will just wait & see. If he after a year doesn't do what he promised, that would be a deal breaker.
Tell you what Tom, I will tell you when I'm being sarcastic. That statement was not being sarcastic. Remember I was raised as a Roman Catholic.....its a mortal sin to miss church.....so my question was really, do you believe that as well....perhaps I should have been more deliberate in my wording.
Ahhhh....26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Out of curiosity, how many people do you know who consciously continue to sin after they see the knowledge of the truth. And do they go to church?
Now that last bit is your opinion of course....correct? Now what if they (the local church) has been around for 40 years and doesnt have an outreach ministry? Is that a true church & should this "Lone Ranger" (using your own expression now) join up....or should they look for a church that has an outreach ministry?
Here is a good article I just saw this morning. It is written by Brian Croft who has a ministry called Practical Shepherding which is practical advice and resources for pastors. We've personally been very blessed by his ministry.
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/artic...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/artic...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Anything about going out to people....or is it that you have to go to them (the church)?
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Bro. EW&F---
In response to your questions you asked me in your post #36, as a mortal human, there is no possible way that I can determine what another person's spiritual condition is.
I could possibly make an educated guess, but that still would only be a guess. More than likely the 11 apostles probably assumed that, prior to his betraying Christ, Judas Iscariot had about as good a spiritual relationship with Christ as they themselves did.
I don't know of any Bible verse that states that another moral human can without a doubt know what another person's real spiritual relationship with Jesus is.
All I said is that I'm not 100% positive that what was written in Hebrews 10:25 should not in context be carried on through the subsequent verses of that chapter.
Most conservative Evangelical Bible scholars have had difficulty in explaining why some of the chapter--and even some of the verse numbering were placed where they were.
Keeping in mind that the original author of the writing we call the "Book" of Hebrews had neither chapter or verse designations (both of which were added approximately 10 centuries after the canon of God's written Word ceased).
My use of the expression "Lone Ranger Christian" wasn't intended to be an indictment against any particular Christian. It's simply an expression I've heard many times in conversations with other fellow Christians.
I'm guessing that this expression probably got its start when somebody used it to describe how some Christians view the necessity of personally and physically fellowshipping with other Christians within the context of a local church with a certain degree of disdain.
While they may possibly have some reasons for not wishing to have face-to-face personal fellowship with other Christians in the context of a local church, God still commands that this kind of fellowship take place on a regular basis.
The general pattern one sees in the NT was that most all Christian fellowship in those days was done in the context of a local church. Most all of Paul's NT epistles were written to either a particular local church, or, in some cases, a group of local churches in a given region.
The same concept is noted in Revelation 1-3 where the Apostle John wrote to seven local churches in western "Asia Minor" [modern-day Turkey].
In the US (& it's probably true elsewhere), some people have the tendency to live out their Christian lives with an almost total disregard to the institute that God not only established, but also the very same institution for whom Christ died--the local, visible NT church.
The reason(s) why some people do this can vary widely, but nonetheless, IMHO, that's still a clear violation of Hebrews 10:25.
I've heard some folks say that they can live out their Christian lives and testimonies just as well as those who want to fellowship within the context of a visible local church. My response to them is that they must be much closer to the Lord than I usually find myself to be because if I were to miss a couple weeks of fellowshipping with my brothers and sisters in Christ within the context of the local church to which I belong, there's no telling how little I'd progress in my standing with God, knowing full well that I would be in open violation of what God in His Word--namely Hebrews 10:25--has commanded me to do.
IOW, I'd be fearful of falling into the hands of the Living God.
Any of you who've experienced the chastisement of God for blatantly violating one of His direct NT commands would most likely tell you the very same thing as well.
In response to your questions you asked me in your post #36, as a mortal human, there is no possible way that I can determine what another person's spiritual condition is.
I could possibly make an educated guess, but that still would only be a guess. More than likely the 11 apostles probably assumed that, prior to his betraying Christ, Judas Iscariot had about as good a spiritual relationship with Christ as they themselves did.
I don't know of any Bible verse that states that another moral human can without a doubt know what another person's real spiritual relationship with Jesus is.
All I said is that I'm not 100% positive that what was written in Hebrews 10:25 should not in context be carried on through the subsequent verses of that chapter.
Most conservative Evangelical Bible scholars have had difficulty in explaining why some of the chapter--and even some of the verse numbering were placed where they were.
Keeping in mind that the original author of the writing we call the "Book" of Hebrews had neither chapter or verse designations (both of which were added approximately 10 centuries after the canon of God's written Word ceased).
My use of the expression "Lone Ranger Christian" wasn't intended to be an indictment against any particular Christian. It's simply an expression I've heard many times in conversations with other fellow Christians.
I'm guessing that this expression probably got its start when somebody used it to describe how some Christians view the necessity of personally and physically fellowshipping with other Christians within the context of a local church with a certain degree of disdain.
While they may possibly have some reasons for not wishing to have face-to-face personal fellowship with other Christians in the context of a local church, God still commands that this kind of fellowship take place on a regular basis.
The general pattern one sees in the NT was that most all Christian fellowship in those days was done in the context of a local church. Most all of Paul's NT epistles were written to either a particular local church, or, in some cases, a group of local churches in a given region.
The same concept is noted in Revelation 1-3 where the Apostle John wrote to seven local churches in western "Asia Minor" [modern-day Turkey].
In the US (& it's probably true elsewhere), some people have the tendency to live out their Christian lives with an almost total disregard to the institute that God not only established, but also the very same institution for whom Christ died--the local, visible NT church.
The reason(s) why some people do this can vary widely, but nonetheless, IMHO, that's still a clear violation of Hebrews 10:25.
I've heard some folks say that they can live out their Christian lives and testimonies just as well as those who want to fellowship within the context of a visible local church. My response to them is that they must be much closer to the Lord than I usually find myself to be because if I were to miss a couple weeks of fellowshipping with my brothers and sisters in Christ within the context of the local church to which I belong, there's no telling how little I'd progress in my standing with God, knowing full well that I would be in open violation of what God in His Word--namely Hebrews 10:25--has commanded me to do.
IOW, I'd be fearful of falling into the hands of the Living God.
Any of you who've experienced the chastisement of God for blatantly violating one of His direct NT commands would most likely tell you the very same thing as well.
Some of the most contensious and sinful people i know are regular church goers....and some are in leadership positions. In church ive come face to face with pedophiles, drug pushers, con artist's, thiefs,hypocrates, blah blah blah....and most are unrepentent. There is an old song and much bad blood between me and some of these characters that wont wash....not when ive seen the damage done and continues to be done.
Even so i am prepared to go to church.....see at this point I dont give a fig about these cretins, i care about my relationship with Christ and how i can pick up the pieces of the broken (by bad religion and the fakes who use religion to their worldly advantage).
Even so i am prepared to go to church.....see at this point I dont give a fig about these cretins, i care about my relationship with Christ and how i can pick up the pieces of the broken (by bad religion and the fakes who use religion to their worldly advantage).