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Why do people hate the doctrine of Eternal Security?
- Thread starter Nicholas25
- Start date
Nicholas25
New Member
I have studied with more intensity in the last two weeks that I have in the last year. I want to really explain my views if you guys do not mind reading a long post, and see what you think.
Most who believe in unconditional eternal security think that those who believe in conditional eternal security are practicing a works salvation. I was raised in a Free Will BAPTIST Church that pretty much did teach works salvation, althought it was never worded in that way. They taught that if you died with unconfessed sin in your life you would go to hell.
I still attend that same FWB Church, but our last two pastors have believed/taught that one could walk away from a relationship with Christ, but it was because of not remaining in the faith or no longer believing. I never felt faith or belief were works. I always thought the condition for all those verses in John that talk about believing was continuing to believe. I want to believe in OSAS, but it's so hard to get away from something you have been taught your entire life. It's also hard when so many verses in the Bible seem to back up conditional and unconditional security.
I recently heard OSAS described as spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:9-15), which I thought was the best example I have ever heard defending OSAS. I feel like I am rambling, but it's so hard to put all of this into words, especially at 12:37 AM.
Do most of you feel that if a true believer falls into sin they will eventually return to the faith? If that's the case OSAS and conditional security are really the same thing because both examples of believers would die in a right standing with God.
I think the Lord is leading me to a position as a youth leader at a Southern Baptist Church, and I have to get some peace about this TOUGH subject. I am studying and praying and ask you to please pray for me also. When/if I get interviewed by the church I will be asked if I believe in eternal security. I knew Calvinism taught a believer would persevere in the faith because of election, but I always thought unconditional eternal security taught one could die in their sins and go to heaven. Most of you are saying if one dies in sin they were never saved in the first place.
Most who believe in unconditional eternal security think that those who believe in conditional eternal security are practicing a works salvation. I was raised in a Free Will BAPTIST Church that pretty much did teach works salvation, althought it was never worded in that way. They taught that if you died with unconfessed sin in your life you would go to hell.
I still attend that same FWB Church, but our last two pastors have believed/taught that one could walk away from a relationship with Christ, but it was because of not remaining in the faith or no longer believing. I never felt faith or belief were works. I always thought the condition for all those verses in John that talk about believing was continuing to believe. I want to believe in OSAS, but it's so hard to get away from something you have been taught your entire life. It's also hard when so many verses in the Bible seem to back up conditional and unconditional security.
I recently heard OSAS described as spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:9-15), which I thought was the best example I have ever heard defending OSAS. I feel like I am rambling, but it's so hard to put all of this into words, especially at 12:37 AM.
Do most of you feel that if a true believer falls into sin they will eventually return to the faith? If that's the case OSAS and conditional security are really the same thing because both examples of believers would die in a right standing with God. I think the Lord is leading me to a position as a youth leader at a Southern Baptist Church, and I have to get some peace about this TOUGH subject. I am studying and praying and ask you to please pray for me also. When/if I get interviewed by the church I will be asked if I believe in eternal security. I knew Calvinism taught a believer would persevere in the faith because of election, but I always thought unconditional eternal security taught one could die in their sins and go to heaven. Most of you are saying if one dies in sin they were never saved in the first place.
Nicholas25
New Member
One more thing quickly:
I was saved in 1999, but got out of fellowship with Christ shortly after. I lived the next five years in wicked sin. I was a drunk, stoner, womanizer, cocky snob, etc.. Christ drew me to repentance almost five years to the day in 2004. I was not looking for him because I was not even in church. I repented in my bedroom at my mothers house at 4:00 AM in the morning. Would I have went to heaven if I would have died before I repented, even though I was living a life worse than most non-believers?
I was saved in 1999, but got out of fellowship with Christ shortly after. I lived the next five years in wicked sin. I was a drunk, stoner, womanizer, cocky snob, etc.. Christ drew me to repentance almost five years to the day in 2004. I was not looking for him because I was not even in church. I repented in my bedroom at my mothers house at 4:00 AM in the morning. Would I have went to heaven if I would have died before I repented, even though I was living a life worse than most non-believers?
Here is one of the problems I have with the view of Conditional Security - the claim that one can be saved again or better - a second time (at the very least) and can continue to be on going. (ie.. saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved, saved, ect...)
However Hebrews 6:4-6 states that if one falls away (looses their salvation) they can NEVER again be saved. There is no second chance.
It is not about what a person has or who they know that determines their salvation but who has and knows them. (Mat 7:16-29)
If you are of God you will continue in and produce good fruit and if not you will only produce that which is not of Christ. This is why Paul said at various times to the people in the churches to 'examine yourselves to know whether you are in the faith". Just because a person is in church and confesses Christ does not necessarily mean they were saved as the Mat 7 passage indicates. Our works do not determine who we are, who we are is determined only by His (Christ's) work on our behalf and our life will deminstate this through our works. IOW- A person is not saved by works (maintaining a right life), but their salvation is evidenced by their works because they now desire to live right as a new creation in Christ. In other words - there is a definate undeniable and unchangable change in their lives. What I mean by 'unchangable' is that no matter how hard they might try to do their old life or worse than it they are convicted and heartbroken over the things they are doing toward God. They CAN NOT live in such a life style. They might be able sin but they can not live therein, it is not who they are anymore.
On a side note: You are correct that faith is not a work (Rom 4:4-6)
However Hebrews 6:4-6 states that if one falls away (looses their salvation) they can NEVER again be saved. There is no second chance.
I am in the Eternal Security group but for the other it seems this is a serious biblical discrepency in their understanding that must be dealt with. Please understand I am not advocating the above passage is stating one 'can' loose their salvation either but is stating a fact of if one 'could'.. they can never be renewed again unto repentence.
It is not about what a person has or who they know that determines their salvation but who has and knows them. (Mat 7:16-29)
If you are of God you will continue in and produce good fruit and if not you will only produce that which is not of Christ. This is why Paul said at various times to the people in the churches to 'examine yourselves to know whether you are in the faith". Just because a person is in church and confesses Christ does not necessarily mean they were saved as the Mat 7 passage indicates. Our works do not determine who we are, who we are is determined only by His (Christ's) work on our behalf and our life will deminstate this through our works. IOW- A person is not saved by works (maintaining a right life), but their salvation is evidenced by their works because they now desire to live right as a new creation in Christ. In other words - there is a definate undeniable and unchangable change in their lives. What I mean by 'unchangable' is that no matter how hard they might try to do their old life or worse than it they are convicted and heartbroken over the things they are doing toward God. They CAN NOT live in such a life style. They might be able sin but they can not live therein, it is not who they are anymore.
On a side note: You are correct that faith is not a work (Rom 4:4-6)
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This is what I believe the Bible is speaking of when it describes being chastened by God. God did not let you die in your rebellious state. He brought you back to Him. This is God's promise.Nicholas25 said:
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
It doesn't say that chastening might yield the fruit of righteousness, but that it will yield it. It is a statement of fact.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].
I will say a prayer for you Nicholas.
raying:TrustingInHim
New Member
This is the truth!! I have only grown in the Lord (sanctification) since I started to understand that any and all good that we have is from Christ through the Holy Spirit, not ourselvesAmy.G said:
. I've always attended OSAS baptist churches but some were so engaged in everyone doing what is right in their own strength that you would think they believed salvation can be lost.I am much more aware of sin and to avoid it by trusting in God and loving Him than I am by worrying about doing things out of fear.
Too many people disagree with eternal security because they want to be able to take at least partial credit for getting themselves into heaven. Their pride still gets in the way, and they don't want to hand over their independence and depend entirely on anyone for anything--including their salvation.
They can't believe that it's so simple as just believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting of their sins. Jesus Christ did ALL that is necessary on the cross, but they won't accept that. They take scriptures out of context and make them mean that we have to earn our salvation or do something to keep ourselves saved. They ignore Isa. 64:6 that says that out righteousnesses are nothing but filthy rags. Will God accept filthy rags as payment for sin?
He expects the BEST, and HE Himself is the best. He gave perfection for our redemption by giving Himself, and yet so many in their pride think they need to help God in their feebleness and sinfulness. That is like a baby helping the doctor bring him into the world. "I know you can't do it alone; I HAVE to help you." Such foolishness and arrogance of man to think God needs our help in anything. Yes, He uses us in spreading the gospel, but He doesn't NEED us to do it. He could do it without our help. He certainly doesn't need our help in getting us into heaven.
When we focus on ourselves, we become puffed up with pride and think more highly of ourselves than we should. When we focus on Jesus Christ and His righteousness, we realize how sinful we are and that we can't do it ourselves. We need His righteousness to make us righteous, and nothing we do will ever accomplish that. We work not to be saved or to stay saved, but we work because we ARE saved and out of gratitude to our loving Saviour.
They can't believe that it's so simple as just believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting of their sins. Jesus Christ did ALL that is necessary on the cross, but they won't accept that. They take scriptures out of context and make them mean that we have to earn our salvation or do something to keep ourselves saved. They ignore Isa. 64:6 that says that out righteousnesses are nothing but filthy rags. Will God accept filthy rags as payment for sin?
He expects the BEST, and HE Himself is the best. He gave perfection for our redemption by giving Himself, and yet so many in their pride think they need to help God in their feebleness and sinfulness. That is like a baby helping the doctor bring him into the world. "I know you can't do it alone; I HAVE to help you." Such foolishness and arrogance of man to think God needs our help in anything. Yes, He uses us in spreading the gospel, but He doesn't NEED us to do it. He could do it without our help. He certainly doesn't need our help in getting us into heaven.
When we focus on ourselves, we become puffed up with pride and think more highly of ourselves than we should. When we focus on Jesus Christ and His righteousness, we realize how sinful we are and that we can't do it ourselves. We need His righteousness to make us righteous, and nothing we do will ever accomplish that. We work not to be saved or to stay saved, but we work because we ARE saved and out of gratitude to our loving Saviour.
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TrustingInHim
New Member
Nicholas25 said:
This is a perfect example of not being able to be snatched from His Hand.
And yes, I believe He could take your life 'early' if you are living in sin and have you stand in His presence, which at that instant, you would be in complete remorse and repentance. But God's glory might be better served, in my opinion, to have a backslider repent publicly and turn back to Him.We can break fellowship/friendship with God, just like a child can displease his/her parent, but we CANNOT break the relationship. Either we are His or we are not. The relationship is permanent. Fellowship with God is restored by repentance.
Another interesting thing is the word 'inherit'. The verses that say 'they shall not inherit the kingdom' refers to enjoying that kingdom - blessings that we can have now. If you have a rich relative and they have you in their will but have not died yet and left you anything, you have not inherited so you can not enjoy it. But the Bible says that we already have inherited the kingdom (Ephesians 1:11) in Christ and we can enjoy the inheritance now by walking with Him and we can loose that enjoyment by sinning.
We cannot forfeit eternal life, for Christ paid for it, but we can loose rewards and that will cause huge regret.
thegospelgeek
New Member
In my mind, when I speak of interpreting scipture it impliles the Holy Spirit's guidance. I don't want anyone to think I mean reasoning it out by my own self. Sorry for the misunderstanding.MB said:
Nicholas25 said:I have studied with more intensity in the last two weeks that I have in the last year. I want to really explain my views if you guys do not mind reading a long post, and see what you think.
Most who believe in unconditional eternal security think that those who believe in conditional eternal security are practicing a works salvation. I was raised in a Free Will BAPTIST Church that pretty much did teach works salvation, althought it was never worded in that way. They taught that if you died with unconfessed sin in your life you would go to hell.
Drfuss: The FWB church theology is Reformed Arminian. The church you were raised in taught Wesleyan Arminian. Many Arminian churches put emphasis on works to get the laymen to do certain things they want even though work and sin have nothing to do with salvation security. The preachers who taught Wesleyan Arminian theology should join a church like the Methodist church.
I still attend that same FWB Church, but our last two pastors have believed/taught that one could walk away from a relationship with Christ, but it was because of not remaining in the faith or no longer believing. I never felt faith or belief were works. I always thought the condition for all those verses in John that talk about believing was continuing to believe. I want to believe in OSAS, but it's so hard to get away from something you have been taught your entire life. It's also hard when so many verses in the Bible seem to back up conditional and unconditional security.
Drfuss: Your last two Pastors taught FWB theology, i.e. works and sin have nothing to do with salvation security, only a decision to stop trusting Christ.
I recently heard OSAS described as spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:9-15), which I thought was the best example I have ever heard defending OSAS. I feel like I am rambling, but it's so hard to put all of this into words, especially at 12:37 AM.
I think the Lord is leading me to a position as a youth leader at a Southern Baptist Church, and I have to get some peace about this TOUGH subject. I am studying and praying and ask you to please pray for me also. When/if I get interviewed by the church I will be asked if I believe in eternal security. I knew Calvinism taught a believer would persevere in the faith because of election, but I always thought unconditional eternal security taught one could die in their sins and go to heaven. Most of you are saying if one dies in sin they were never saved in the first place.
Drfuss: My situation years ago was similar to yours today. For many years, I attended Wesleyan Arminian type churches. Sixteen years ago, we switched to a SBC church primarily due to the worship service style. It was then I found out that Charles Stanley's version of eternal security was not what most SBC churches believe.
I found that the difference between Reformed Arminian and SBC salvation security was primarily just a play on words. For example: If a 'Christain' decides to stop trusting Christ, the FWB say a Christian decided to stop trusting Christ; most SBC will say he was not really a True Christian in the first place. In both cases, that person not trusting in Christ will not go to heaven when he dies. So the only difference is how you describe that person before he decided to stop trusting in Christ, i.e. just a play on words.
Concerning the importance of works, I have seen more emphasis on works in my SBC church that in the Wesleyan Arminian churches. In most SBC churches, if you have no desire to serve the Lord, you were not a Christian in the first place. I even heard one famous SBC preacher say, in an alter call, if you came forward years ago and have no desire to serve the Lord now, you should come forward again because your first conversion didn't take.
thegospelgeek said:
When we are first saved we don't know all the particulars until we study. The question is how can two people have two different understandings when led by the Same Holy Spirit. The answer is one of the two has believed he was led by the Lord and the other one was. How do you tell if you're in fact being led by the Spirit. We test the Spirit with scripture. We ask does the Spirit contradict the Word of God? If so then the idea or belief isn't valid.
When I was first saved I feared loosing my Salvation because of sin. I struggled not to sin as best as I could but I sinned anyway. I hadn't learned all of those particulars that are gradually revealed to us as we grow in Christ. The deeper things of God can only be known by scripture and the leading of the Spirit.
This verse convicted me everytime I sinned because well you can read it here;
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
My problem was that I knew this wasn't true of me, so I felt I had lost my Salvation. Remember I was just starting my journey up the narrow path of Salvation. I was ready to give up because of my discouragement. This is when I learned the truth of that passage above.
The reason one born of God doesn't sin is because it is our flesh that sins after Salvation. Our flesh still has it's sin nature. It still has sin dwelling inside the flesh and always will until the body has been renewed. Our Spirits agree with the law and cannot sin. Paul explains all this in Romans 7 He says;
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I realize that there are a few verses in scripture that seem to support we can loose our Salvation. There is even a few that says there is no God but that doesn't make it true. There are far more scriptures that supports a OSAS position. For me I have to consider the side with the most witnesses.
This verse leaves no doubt in my mind of OSAS.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
There is only one who can break a seal of God and that is God. If we go astray Believe me God comes after His own and we can't hide from Him. He can and does bring us back to Him. He corrects His children. If not then they simply were never saved to begin with.
Loosing our Salvation causes me to think that God was unable to keep His promise of finishing the work He began in us. Except I know God is able and God keeps His promises.
MB
psalms109:31
Active Member
Salvation
I do not believe you can loose salvation, but many have believed and let trials and tribulation choke out the seed of life or let satan steal it away, because you didn't come to God with an open heart and it just remained out on the outside for satan just to take
If you really are His you can walk away, but you can never just stay away.
James 5
The Prayer of Faith
13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Hebrews 3
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
We want to encourage man's word like the OASIS, instead of following God's word.
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
I do not believe you can loose salvation, but many have believed and let trials and tribulation choke out the seed of life or let satan steal it away, because you didn't come to God with an open heart and it just remained out on the outside for satan just to take
If you really are His you can walk away, but you can never just stay away.
James 5
The Prayer of Faith
13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Hebrews 3
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
We want to encourage man's word like the OASIS, instead of following God's word.
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
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Nicholas25
New Member
I appreciate all the responses. They are really helping me in this growth process. I told you about my five year period of living a life that did not please the Lord. My mother went through something similar. She was saved in 1990 or 1991. My dad was saved soon after. He passed away on March 11, 1997 from Cancer. My former pastor said that “Gary (my dad) grew more in five years of living for Christ than most people do in twenty years.” After the death of my dad I think my mother blamed God for a long time. Her faith and fellowship with Christ began to weaken.
By 1999 or 2000 she was living the life of a non-believer. If you were around her today, November 26, 2008 you would never know she was a strong believer at one time unless someone told you. She was strong in the Lord for years. I am not just talking about going through the Christian/religious motions. No one who knew her while she walked with Christ doubts her salvation experience was real. Her present and my past experience of being out of fellowship with Christ make it tougher for us to believe in the unconditional eternal security of the believer. She believes if she died right now she would go to hell because of her belief in conditional security. If her and I had never left fellowship with the Lord Jesus if would be easier for me to believe OSAS.
I struggle to know if I would have gone to heaven during the period from 2000 to 2004. I also struggle with my mother’s spiritual condition today. I know we are not saved by works, or kept saved by works. We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justified by faith (Romans 5:1). I just struggle with someone leaving the Christian faith and returning to the condition they were in before, if not worse. I know I was saved in 1999 and I know my mom was saved in the early 90’s. The “they must not have ever been saved in the first place” argument does not work in this case.
I understand the teaching that when once is saved they are spiritually circumcised. Christ removes their soul from their body and places it in him. I see how when one comes to Christ through the blood he shed on the cross they are hid in him (Colossians 3:3). I understand how God sees Jesus and his shed blood when he looks at a believer, because he can’t look at us because even on our best days we can’t compare to the perfection that is God! I can see all this theologically, but then I look at the life application, and I struggle. Our flesh is weak, we live in sinful bodies, our enemy is looking to devour us, and circumstances in life can be hard. I see how people can lose faith and lose heart. I understand the scripture and comments posted on here about God keeping us, but I also think about the free will of man.
I am really stuck right now! I do covet your prayers. I will have to come to a conclusion on this tough topic soon. Thank you.
By 1999 or 2000 she was living the life of a non-believer. If you were around her today, November 26, 2008 you would never know she was a strong believer at one time unless someone told you. She was strong in the Lord for years. I am not just talking about going through the Christian/religious motions. No one who knew her while she walked with Christ doubts her salvation experience was real. Her present and my past experience of being out of fellowship with Christ make it tougher for us to believe in the unconditional eternal security of the believer. She believes if she died right now she would go to hell because of her belief in conditional security. If her and I had never left fellowship with the Lord Jesus if would be easier for me to believe OSAS.
I struggle to know if I would have gone to heaven during the period from 2000 to 2004. I also struggle with my mother’s spiritual condition today. I know we are not saved by works, or kept saved by works. We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justified by faith (Romans 5:1). I just struggle with someone leaving the Christian faith and returning to the condition they were in before, if not worse. I know I was saved in 1999 and I know my mom was saved in the early 90’s. The “they must not have ever been saved in the first place” argument does not work in this case.
I understand the teaching that when once is saved they are spiritually circumcised. Christ removes their soul from their body and places it in him. I see how when one comes to Christ through the blood he shed on the cross they are hid in him (Colossians 3:3). I understand how God sees Jesus and his shed blood when he looks at a believer, because he can’t look at us because even on our best days we can’t compare to the perfection that is God! I can see all this theologically, but then I look at the life application, and I struggle. Our flesh is weak, we live in sinful bodies, our enemy is looking to devour us, and circumstances in life can be hard. I see how people can lose faith and lose heart. I understand the scripture and comments posted on here about God keeping us, but I also think about the free will of man.
I am really stuck right now! I do covet your prayers. I will have to come to a conclusion on this tough topic soon. Thank you.
If eternal security is a valid doctrine, how could it have gone unnoticed for 1500 years until it was discovered by Calvin? Surely someone along the way would have mentioned it but they did not. On the other hand, there are numerous individuals in that 1500-year period of time who made it clear that you could lose your salvation.
Nicholas, I have a simple way of understanding the free will of man. Draw two circles, one outside the other. The larger circle is titled the Sovereignty of God. The inner circle is titled the Permissive Will of God. You will see that God's sovereignty is absolute and over te lesser circle. It is God's Permissive Will within His absolute sovereignty. It is here where God permits man to exercise his free will.
It is here I go to Jonah. Jonah rebelled at God's plan to evangelize Nineveh, and God allowed Jonah to run away in disoedience. Finally God stepped in and overruled Jonah's free will. God had him thrown overboard and eventually Jonah obeyed God and ministered to Nineveh.
I trust this will help you to understand where free will fits into the absolute sovereignty of God.
Oh, and bless you for struggling with the issues and not giving up.
Cheers,
Jim
It is here I go to Jonah. Jonah rebelled at God's plan to evangelize Nineveh, and God allowed Jonah to run away in disoedience. Finally God stepped in and overruled Jonah's free will. God had him thrown overboard and eventually Jonah obeyed God and ministered to Nineveh.
I trust this will help you to understand where free will fits into the absolute sovereignty of God.
Oh, and bless you for struggling with the issues and not giving up.
Cheers,
Jim
Marcia
Active Member
Zenas said:
No offense, but your understanding of justification is incorrect, and certainly is not very Baptist. Justification is an act of God. When we believe in Christ, we are justified at that moment for all time. It is not something we do or maintain. The process of change for us is sanctification, not justification.
We can never justify ourselves but we can cooperate with the process of sanctification. Salvation is not decided on how sanctified we've become at death (or no one could get into heaven) but on the fact that we have been justified by faith in Christ and are declared righteous by God in his sight. Justified and forgiven at the same time is what happens when one trusts in Christ.
Jonah is a great example. :thumbs:Jim1999 said:
God didn't let Jonah get by with his disobedience. He chastized him by letting a fish eat him! That would probably get my attention too! :laugh:
The point is that God doesn't save us and then walk away. He is with us eternally. Just as a good father disciplines his children, so does God. But you're forever God's child, even during times of rebelliousness.
Marcia
Active Member
Nicholas25 said:
I think Amy and TrustInHim have given you good advice and scriptures.
Yes, you would have gone to heaven if you had died before you repented, because when you believed in Christ in '99 you were saved - redeemed - made clean - forgiven - justified. You cannot undo that.
Here's another thought to back this up:
In 1 Cor. 11 it says:
29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
This is a passage rebuking the Corinthian believers for making a mockery of the Lord's Supper. Paul says that for this reason, many are "weak and sick, and a number sleep." This means that many of them died - that is, the Lord took them home due to this sin.
So this shows that a believer who is sinning still goes to heaven. Same with Aninias and Sapphira in Acts 5.