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Why do people hate the doctrine of Eternal Security?

Marcia

Active Member
Nicholas25 said:

I struggle to know if I would have gone to heaven during the period from 2000 to 2004. I also struggle with my mother’s spiritual condition today. I know we are not saved by works, or kept saved by works. We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justified by faith (Romans 5:1). I just struggle with someone leaving the Christian faith and returning to the condition they were in before, if not worse. I know I was saved in 1999 and I know my mom was saved in the early 90’s. The “they must not have ever been saved in the first place” argument does not work in this case.

Nicholas, I'll say the same thing here I said on your thread on this topic in Other Christian Denominations because I'm not sure if you've read it. Please read all the responses because people are taking time and care to address your concerns.

You can't look at examples and determine your theology from that! IOW, don't look at your mother and try to decide if eternal security is correct or not. You can really get messed up this way. Look at the Bible and what it says! That is what we need to look at for final authority - not examples or what we think should be or shouldn't be.

Also, see my post above on 1 Cor. 11 showing that believers committing a gross sin were taken to heaven.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Salvation is a gift from God and the Bible says;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We didn't save ourselves. Only Jesus saves

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
This means if you are really saved you can't change your mind because you no longer own yourself. Once saved you belong to God.

MB
 

Zenas

Active Member
TCGreek said:
Neither can we keep ourselves saved?
Nevertheles, we are told directly, "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
The wording in the kjv is "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..It could just as easily read,,cultivate what you understand is your personal salvation with fear and trepidation....don't take your redemption lightly. Be serious about it.

It does not mean to work for salvation. That is a stretch to make that verse, in context, mean salvation by works.

Cheers,

Jim
 

Zenas

Active Member
Jim1999 said:
The wording in the kjv is "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..It could just as easily read,,cultivate what you understand is your personal salvation with fear and trepidation....don't take your redemption lightly. Be serious about it.

It does not mean to work for salvation. That is a stretch to make that verse, in context, mean salvation by works.

Cheers,

Jim
And yet not one single English translation of the Bible says anything close to that. They all say "work out . . . ." Surely among the best minds of theological thought, from so many different points of view, there would have been at least one who translated this verse as you have proposed. You will not find such a rendition, except of course in the paraphrases where the editor writes down what he thinks the verse ought say, e.g., The Message. I would never suggest this verse means we attain our salvation by works but it is abundantly clear that we maintain our salvation by good works. Every time I read the gospel of Matthew I become more impressed at how very works oriented the gospel of Christ is. Look at the Great Commission. It if literally full of active verbs: preach, teach, obey, baptize. I don't want to denigrate the importance of faith but that word isn't found anywhere in the Great Commission.
 
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Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
Try the Greek word for work. Katergazomai....to finish, fashion, cause, perform, work out....nothing to do with a labour to obtain.

Cheers,

Jim
 

Zenas

Active Member
Jim1999 said:
Try the Greek word for work. Katergazomai....to finish, fashion, cause, perform, work out....nothing to do with a labour to obtain.

Cheers,

Jim
Jim, when you bring out the Greek you have me at the same disadvantage I had you when we were discussing tax law. I did look up the word in a Greek dictionary and it seems to agree with your definition. However, if you will read my posts on the subject I have never suggested we do anything to obtain our salvation. That is only available through the finished work of Jesus Christ. It is by grace, not by works. However it is incumbent on us to cultivate, to preserve, to maintain our salvation by good works lest we lose it. "I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified." 1 Cor. 9:27.
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jim1999 said:
The wording in the kjv is "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..It could just as easily read,,cultivate what you understand is your personal salvation with fear and trepidation....don't take your redemption lightly. Be serious about it.

It does not mean to work for salvation. That is a stretch to make that verse, in context, mean salvation by works.

Cheers,

Jim
In other words, it really does mean "work out" as in "go to the gym and work out." It means to take what you have within you and exercise it.
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
Zenas said:
However it is incumbent on us to cultivate, to preserve, to maintain our salvation by good works lest we lose it.
If you can lose it, how do you know when you have it?
 

Tom Butler

New Member
AresMan said:
If you can lose it, how do you know when you have it?
And, how do you know when you lose it?

How many sins does it take? What kind of sins does it take? Can you get it back?

If it involves one simply saying, "I no longer believe," what happens if the next day one says, "Oops, I take that back. I believe again."?
 

Zenas

Active Member
AresMan said:
If you can lose it, how do you know when you have it?
First of all, in spiritual matters we can never know anything. We have to go on faith. See Hebrews 11:1. How do I know (believe) I am saved? I claim the promises of John 3:16, Mark 16:16 and similar passages. Why do I believe my salvation (and yours for that matter) is not secure? Because God’s word teaches it. 1 Corinthians 9:27, James 5:19-20, Galations 5:4, and many other places. How do we get back into a state of grace? By claiming the promises of 1 John 1:9. This makes a lot more sense than some system of believing that when you are saved all your sins—past, present and future—are forgiven, a concept that is not found in the Bible.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Zenas said:
First of all, in spiritual matters we can never know anything.
Not according to John.


1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Zenas said:
First of all, in spiritual matters we can never know anything. We have to go on faith. .
Faith is not blind, as some religions practice it--Hindus, Muslims and some cults.

Faith is based on absolute knowledge. What do you mean "we can never know anything." You are in sad shape if that is true.

I know that Christ died.
I know that He was buried.
I know that He arose from the dead on the third day.

I know these things according to the Scriptures, verified by over 500 witnesses, verified by outside historical sources, etc.
I know that salvation is through Christ who came for the express purpose of dying for my sins and demonstrated his deity while on this earth.

My faith is not blind. It is grounded in the facts that are accurately recorded for me in the Scriptures.
Yes I can know for sure that I am saved. Yes I can know many spiritual truths for sure.

What meanest thou: "in spiritual matters we can never know anything." :rolleyes:
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Zenas said:
This makes a lot more sense than some system of believing that when you are saved all your sins—past, present and future—are forgiven, a concept that is not found in the Bible.

Quite a heresy you are espousing there.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Zenas said:
First of all, in spiritual matters we can never know anything. We have to go on faith. See Hebrews 11:1. How do I know (believe) I am saved? I claim the promises of John 3:16, Mark 16:16 and similar passages. Why do I believe my salvation (and yours for that matter) is not secure? Because God’s word teaches it. 1 Corinthians 9:27, James 5:19-20, Galations 5:4, and many other places. How do we get back into a state of grace? By claiming the promises of 1 John 1:9. This makes a lot more sense than some system of believing that when you are saved all your sins—past, present and future—are forgiven, a concept that is not found in the Bible.
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Notice that this verse does not say that Paul will be a castaway. It says he should be a castaway as we all should because no man is with out sin

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Inorder to be converted one must not have ever been saved. Once converted always converted. This verse speaks of sinners and those born of God do not sin. The sin that dwells in their flesh may sin but the Spirit of that man does not sin. The flesh is not going to be saved in it's present state. We will have new bodies when we meet Christ face to face. This flesh will die.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The fact is we are not justified by the Law. We are justified by Grace through faith, and both are gifts from God. In fact the Law never saved anyone for if it had then the death of our Lord would have been unnecessary
MB
 

Nicholas25

New Member
As I continue to study conditional and unconditional security, I have came upon imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness. I like the idea of imputed righteousness concerning unconditional eternal security. Obviously it is used to back up unconditional eternal security. Imparted righteousness seems like it helps us to be saved, but afte that we (with the help of the Holy Spirit) must make sure to remain in the faith.
 

Allan

Active Member
Nicholas25 said:
As I continue to study conditional and unconditional security, I have came upon imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness. I like the idea of imputed righteousness concerning unconditional eternal security. Obviously it is used to back up unconditional eternal security. Imparted righteousness seems like it helps us to be saved, but afte that we (with the help of the Holy Spirit) must make sure to remain in the faith.
If I might leave this here for you brother, it will help in understanding the biblical meanings of 'imparted' and 'imputed' righteousness in a sermon by Michael Morrow.
Does God Give Righteousness To Enable A Person To
Save Himself, Or Does God Account A Person
Righteous Because Of Christ?

KJV Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

One of the great controversies in Christianity is whether a person is saved by his own efforts or whether God counts him as righteous freely. Put another way, the question is, does God save a sinner without him earning it, or must the sinner do some things "in order" to be finally saved? It is the old question of whether righteousness is "imparted" or "imputed."

Most of us readily understand the word "impart." It means that someone gives you something. Paul used it in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 1:11 "For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established. . . ."

In other words Paul wanted to give the Roman Christians a spiritual gift by which they would be stronger Christians.

The word "impute" is a little less known. It means to apply to one's account. Let me give an illustration to show the difference between the two words. Let's say that you have charged some items at the local hardware store. When you go in to pay your bill the cashier says that you do not owe anything. You reply that there must be some mistake because you know you charged certain items. After looking at the records the cashier comes back to you and says, "Someone came in earlier and paid your bill." "They gave us the amount of money you owed and we applied it to your account." The cashier could have just as well have said, "They gave us the amount of money you owed and we imputed it to your account."

In the illustration above, the amount of money paid on the account was reckoned to be equal to the amount owed on the account and so the debt was paid and the man who had originally owed the debt did not have to put out one penny to pay his debt. Someone else had done the deed for him.

That is the word "impute."

The word impart is completely different. Thinking about our illustration above, let's say that you have charged some things at the local hardware store. You go to work on a certain day and you think to yourself, "After I am paid today I am going to go in and pay my bill at the hardware store." Quitting time comes and the boss comes around with your check. He gives or "imparts" your check to you. You leave your job and head straight to the bank to cash your check. You put your money in your pocket and head down the street for the hardware store fully intending to pay your bill. But on the way something happens. Your stomach growls and you are reminded that you haven't eaten yet so you stop in the local diner and order your dinner. After you have eaten you continue your trip to the hardware store. On the way down the street you remember that you need to pick up some medicine at the drug store so you stop in and pay for that. Along the way you also pass the bank where your mortgage is owed. You remember that it is due so you go in to pay. By the time you get to the hardware store you are ready to pay up and go home. The cashier tells you the amount you owe and you begin to count out the money but to your dismay you realize you do not have enough money left in order to pay what you owe. You owe a debt you cannot pay and though you had your check given (imparted) to you, you have already spent too much and you cannot pay your debt.

You and I owe God a great debt. God says "Be ye holy; for I am holy." The standard is that we be as holy a man or woman as God!

Paul the Apostle said, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

He is saying that anyone who hopes that keeping the ritual of circumcision, the sigh of the Jewish religion, will save him, is also a debtor to keep every other ritual and precept of the Jewish law. If being saved is by keeping the Law then every part of the Law without exception must be kept for someone to be saved.

The Apostle James said, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

In other words if the Jewish Law is not kept absolutely perfectly from the womb to the tomb then the whole Law is broken and a man's debt to pay what he owes God (perfect obedience) still stands against him.

The sad truth is that most religious Americans believe that God "imparts" righteousness to those who are saved. In other words, God gives humanity enough grace so that men are righteous enough (that is "good" enough") on their own, to go to heaven.

Is that true? If that is true then what is the purpose of the death of Christ? Why is the word "impart" never used in connection with salvation verses in the Bible?

The answer is plain. God does not "impart" grace so that we can be good enough to enter into heaven. No. He "Imputes" righteousness to our account so that our sin debt before God is completely paid, and we are justified before Him.

Who paid our sin debt?

2 Corinthians 5:21 says , "For he (God) hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

When Jesus Christ died on the cross He made a way for every man's sin debt to be paid in full before God. In His death Christ so dealt with all of our sins so that God's justice being satisfied, He was not free to offer salvation to every man. The payment of our sins is an arrangement between Christ, God's Son, and God Himself.

The way that applies to us is twofold. First, we must realize that the debt we owe God is massive and that we cannot pay. We are not holy or righteous in our best moments and any effort on our part to keep God's Law or "be a good person" in order to go to heaven is totally doomed to failure.

And secondly, we must realize that, seeing our terrible condition, a merciful God has provided the way of salvation through the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. We must turn from every effort of our own to save ourselves, and totally trust in Christ alone for salvation. This is called repentance and faith. It is repentance from sin and dead efforts to save one's self and faith in the finished work of Christ. Paul the Apostle put it this way:

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

My friend, are you hoping to make it to heaven by your good works? Till the day you stand before the judgment bar of God you will be in debt. God's just nature demands more than you can pay. In the end you will hear Him say, "Depart from me I never knew you."

But if you have been made willing by the Holy Spirit to forsake your own good works and your own empty resolutions, and your own self righteousness, and you have come to know deeply that you cannot save yourself, then there is great hope for you.

That hope is in Christ alone and what he did. Does that mean that there will be no good works in the life of a Christian? Can a man who has "imputed" righteousness live a life of sin and still claim to be saved? No! Again listen to the Apostle Paul.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Those who trust the grace of God in Christ alone are made righteous before God. Their debt is paid and the righteousness of Christ is placed on their account. They are fully paid up before God and have an infinite amount of righteousness left over (after all, it is the righteousness of Christ Himself that is applied to their account).

And that new relationship with God, because of what Christ accomplished on the cross, results in a life of good works which God has planned before hand for all believer who are being saved by grace alone! You can never work enough good works in order to be saved, but a genuinely saved person will delight in good works and a God honoring life once you have been saved.

That Is the New Testament truth. Anything else falls far short of biblical salvation.

So what will it be? Will you continue in a futile effort to save yourself or will you submit to the righteousness that comes from God alone?
 

Pipedude

Active Member
One point to keep in mind is that all of this discussion begins with the assumption that the Calvinist view of election is not correct. If it were, then all verses about conditional security would be subsumed under the caveat "But God will see to it that you do fulfil those conditions." Which gives an "unconditional" container for the conditions--sort of like a box with one address on it which is packed inside a bigger box with the correct address on it.

So, if we begin with some kind of noncalvinist "free will" belief regarding saving faith, we're asking whether God allows us to decide to enter, but doesn't allow us to decide to exit. This is why Calvinists insist that noncalvinist doctrine is works-oriented and gives credit to man and makes man partly responsible for his own salvation: "God did his part and I did my part." But if the former emphasis is correct (man makes the final decision regarding God's offer), then the idea that man does something to stay saved is consistent. In each case, man "does something" to experience salvation by grace through faith.

On the other hand, there's a big difference between "doing something" and "doing something that is meritorious." The latter flies in the face of of Pauline theology.

Just to throw another cat in the clothes dryer, does anybody have an opinion of Jude 21 "keep yourselves in the love of God"? We all like v. 24 "him who is able to keep you from falling," but even a medicine that is able to keep you from relapsing is no good unless you're taking it, so v. 24 doesn't say much in one direction or another about unconditional security. How do you explain v. 21?
 
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