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TheOneWhoLives
Member
John 8:47 - He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Because you have to be of God to even believe in the first place.
Because you have to be of God to even believe in the first place.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Either because God determined who would and who would not believe or because each individual freely chose to either believe or to not believe,
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But if you are already of God then what is the necessity of believing? There is none, your faith/believing changes nothing.
But that is not what the verse you quoted is in about anyway.
Joh 8:47 Whoever belongs to God {those that have trusted Christ} hears the words of God. The reason you {the Jewish leaders/people} do not hear is that you do not belong {have not believed that Christ is the Messiah} to God.”
Christ had just said to them Joh 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. The people were not deaf but the were unwilling to believe what he said.
Blank
Active Member
God‘s choice or our choice? Which do you think?
TheOneWhoLives
Member
That’s not a valid question to ask. Scripture teaches that because one is of God that by necessity they will come to faith.
John 8:43 - Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Notice, Jesus is pointing out that fact that He is speaking in the plain language that they can understand, yet His words mean absolutely nothing to them.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
According to the bible man has to belief before God will save them.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Why is it not a valid question? If one is already of God {saved} why is faith necessary? It isn't. One's faith would make no difference at all.
Christ was not speaking some strange language. The Jews knew exactly what He was saying they just did not accept it.
Just as when we tell someone about salvation through Christ Jesus. They know what we are saying but many will not accept that truth.
TheOneWhoLives
Member
You are thinking two-dimensionally. God's elect people experience salvation in time. This includes coming to repentance and faith and all the other blessings that go along with it.
They did not accept it because they are enslaved to sin. Only the Son can set them free.
Of course they can hear the words we're saying, but unless someone is of the elect, our words will go in one ear and out the other.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Reply
Christians are called chosen or elect of God
1. the messiah in called elect, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
Were there any Christians before the foundation of the world?
The only time a person is one of the elect is when they are in Christ and that only happens when they have believed in Him. There were no pre-chosen people as some are prone to say.
I agree.
Again one is only elect when they are in Christ not before.
Christians are called chosen or elect of God
1. the messiah in called elect, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
Were there any Christians before the foundation of the world?
TheOneWhoLives
Member
2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth
Of course no Christians physically existed before the world was made. But it had already been determined who would and would not be a Christian before the world was made.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
From the beginning of what? If you are claiming that God chose them before the foundation of the world then you have to read that into the text as it is not there. If it is from the beginning of the preaching of the gospel message then we see that clearly in scripture.
Since Jesus came to save the lost, and God desires all men to be saved (Luke 19:10; 1Timothy 2:3-4), we might say God intends for all to be a part of the chosen. Unfortunately, not all will respond to His calling with faith so as to be saved.
You base that on reading your view into scripture. Since God desires all to be saved and Christ draws all men to Himself and He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world why are not all saved? Are you suggesting that God is disingenuous?
If He had picked out all those that would be condemned from the beginning then why say He would draw them or desired that they be saved knowing full well that it was not possible?
God, before time, chose Christ as the Elect one and set a plan that those that through faith were in Christ would become the children of God, the elect. No one was elect prior to that point in time, and definitely not before creation, as one is only elect when they are in the Elect one.
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
However, it is stated clearly elsewhere in the bible:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God foreknows all that will freely trust in Him but no one was actually chosen to be in Him before the foundation of the world which is the view you are suggesting.
Notice, it’s "in Him." If Christ had not come and died there would have been no choosing. That’s part of the plan. Not only was it a part that we be chosen, become one of the elect, through trusting "in Him", but the lamb was prepared before the foundation of the world. All of that was devised by the counsel of God in heaven.
The flip side of your view is that God also chose all those that would not be in Him and thus would be consigned to hell. That is the logical end of the calvinist view.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
So what does God choosing mean, if He didn't choose, He left it up to man to choose to believe in the Saviour or not?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God did leave it up to us to choose to follow Him. He has chosen to save those that believe in Him.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,but that the world through Him might be saved.
Rom 1:16 "...the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes..."
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
While salvation is available to all, only those that freely trust in God will be saved.
If God chose all that would be saved then it also means that He chose all that would be condemned.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Yes, all those verses say that salvation is for all who believe, but none of them mentions the choosing/election by God. Elsewhere, in verses that I have often quoted, we are told that those who are saved were chosen by God before the foundation of the world.
I think I would change that wording slightly to: "Salvation is available to all who believe, and those that freely trust in God will be saved."
That's human reasoning, but we don't read that in the bible. There, we do read of God choosing those that He would save, so when a sinner is saved, the glory and praise for that are God's. When a sinner is condemned/unsaved, the responsibility is entirely the sinner's.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
No one was chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. I have seen that claim many times but the context does not support that view. It is bad theology to base one's view on out of context verses.
If you have contextualized verses that support your view then please provide them and we can discuss them.
What I had posted is supported by clear scripture
"While salvation is available to all, only those that freely trust in God will be saved."
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,....
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
So we see that salvation is indeed available to all. The offer of salvation is not limited.
But I do agree that only those that freely trust in Him will be saved, the offer has to be accepted.
To quote you from this post "I have often quoted, we are told that those who are saved were chosen by God before the foundation of the world."
So logically if God chose all those that would be saved then they are the only ones that could be saved and all the others were condemned before the foundation of the world. So by your own words it was not their sin that condemned them but the rejection of them by God since they were not part of the chosen.
Again to quote you from this post "those that freely trust in God will be saved"
If, as you say, God chose for salvation all those that would be saved prior to the foundation of the world then their faith in Him is irrelevant. They were going to be saved without any faith. In fact that is what your calvinist view does say. "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" Calvinist Loraine Boettner
So which is it @David Lamb saved before the foundation of the world or saved because they believe in Him?
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I agree that it is bad theology to use verses out of context. Sorry if I have been guilty of that. I will seek to remedy it here. Here are Ephesians 1:3-4 in the context of their surrounding verses:
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,” (Eph 1:1-8 NKJV)
Phrases like "the faithful in Christ Jesus," "adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself," "redemption through His blood" and "the forgiveness of sins" indicate to me that the context is indeed salvation.
It seems we do agree on the really important matter that (praise God!) salvation is indeed available for all sinners who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. We can both say to sinner, "Christ died for sinners, and we are all sinners. Believe on Him and you will be saved!"
No. We know from God's word that all have sinned, so left to themselves, all are condemned. In His grace God chose to save some of those sinners - we don't know which ones, or precisely why. Those who remain condemned are indeed condemned on account of sin. Those who are saved have that condemnation transferred to the Lord Jesus Christ.
No I have never suggested that I believe that faith is irrelevant. It cannot be, because we are told:
“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:4-10 NKJV)
I don't know the context of your Boettner quote, but I would be very surprised if he was belittling the importance of faith.
I have never ever said that anybody was saved before the foundation of the world. Those verses I quoted from Ephesians 1 say that Christians were chosen before the foundation of the world, not that they actually came to salvation then.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Agreed all sin but according to calvinism only those chosen before creation can be saved. You said "God chose to save some of those sinners" but that also means that He chose to condemn the others before they had even sinned. But that disagrees with these verses"
John 3:17, John 12:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, 1 Timothy 4:10 Now these are just a few of the verses that show God loves the whole world and wants the whole world to be saved and yet your view contradicts those verses.
You are hanging your theology on one misunderstood verse.
God has determined within Himself that man could only be saved when they are in Him. He did not pick who would be saved but rather how they could be saved.
Faith is the lynch pin of salvation, no faith no salvation. God by His grace saves those that believe.
The quote shows that he has the order backwards.
The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that man is totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation. They state very emphatically that he cannot repent or believe the Gospel. Their teaching is that man cannot believe until he is born-again. This new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. Those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ for salvation.
This is the source of the Boettner quote [The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]
But that is the result of what calvinist do say whether you have used those words or not. Look at the TULIP/DoG.
Calvinist theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to Calvinism, you are not part of this select group chosen before the foundation of the world then you are doomed form the start.
The Gospel call in Calvinism is not a sincere offer. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election [chosen before the foundation of the world] that will partake of the Limited Atonement [Christ only covered their sins] will then be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace [God does not draw them at all]. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.