Why do you sin?

[DHK]

My challenge was to Willis. After seeing how you interpret scripture numerous times, I would NEVER ask to see your interpretation of any scripture. You are so far out in right field that you are not even in the ballpark. Your superstitious belief that sin is inherited from your father is a good example, pure nonsense.

And I didn't address that.

You have explained Jer 13:23 many times before, and you think it is teaching men are born with a sin nature. If so, then it would be God's fault, because God is the one who gave the leopard his spots, and the Ethiopian his dark skin. Again, you are not even in the ballpark when it comes to interpreting scripture correctly.

And I didn't address that either.

You gave me one of YOUR personal interpretations. My interpretation is just as good as yours and far more literal.

No, your interpretation is void of context.

As for Clarke, I have known for years he was a Methodist. Nevertheless, he was greatly influenced by Calvinist teaching as almost all theologians were several hundred years ago.

I am not a Calvinist, but a Calvinist would have come close to the same conclusion as I would have on that passage. You proved that he wasn't a Calvinist.

You are not a Calvinist, but you have been greatly influenced by it. Your belief that God does not hear a sinner's prayer is a Calvinist belief. If that were so, nobody could get saved until they were first regenerated. Calvinism 101.

I stand against Calvinism. I stand for orthodox traditional Christian faith, not that which came out of the Reformation. To show you one difference, unlike the Calvinist (or many of them), I believe that regeneration and salvation take place simultaneously and that faith precedes them both.
That is not what the typical Calvinist believes. Since you don't know what I believe you are in no place to judge.

Having said that your critical post is made of slurs and accusations. It dodges the meat of this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2110352&postcount=167

which you fail to respond to, because you cannot.

 

[Winman]

I will and have many times, but you fail to respond. The reason: you are unteachable. You cannot refute my answer so you don't bother to respond.

This is your opinion, nothing to respond to.

Now first look at the context.

Mat 12:33-35
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

If you really want to get into the overall context Jesus is speaking of those who will not change and cannot change.

He is NOT saying they cannot change. He is saying because they have chosen to be a corrupt tree that they can only produce corrupt fruit. Verse 33 absolutely implies they have both the option and ability to be whichever tree they choose to be. Because they have chosen to be a corrupt tree, they can only produce corrupt fruit.

If your view was correct, verse 35 would be nonsensical, because you believe all men are born with a corrupt heart. In your view there is no such thing as a man with a good heart. But Cornelius refutes that, he was not saved, and he did not have the Spirit, but he was a very good man.

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
--These Pharisees had committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. They had attributed the works of Christ to the works of Satan, another spirit other than the Holy Spirit. They did that while Christ was standing right in front of them, in the flesh, doing these miracles and speaking to them. I do not believe this sin can be committed today. But that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it was a very serious sin, and they would not change, could not change, would not be saved. That is the context.

Jesus did not say they could not change, you are inserting that into scripture when it is not being said. And vs. 33 absolutely refutes that idea, Jesus said "either make" the tree good and it's fruit good, "or else make" the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt. He didn't say they couldn't change, he implied they could.

In verse 33 Jesus is speaking of a hypothetical situation which cannot be done. Can a person change the spots of a leopard, change the skin of an Ethiopian, change the nature of a fig tree so that it bear olive berries, or an apple tree that it may bear grapes? No. All these things are impossible. So it is impossible to change a corrupt tree to give good fruit, and a corrupt man to give good fruit. It is impossible. All of the above would take a miracle.

Right, Jesus spoke of things that do not exist, things that are impossible, hypothetical things, etc... What a bunch of garbage.

Look at verse 34. What does he call them? A generation of vipers! A generation of vipers, (a metaphor speaking of very evil people) is not suddenly going to start doing good! There is no way that is going to happen! Impossible.

Yes, they had chosen to be vipers.

Why? Out of the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks, and their hearts were evil. They were the ones that cursed Christ; mocked and scorned him. They put him on the cross and crucified him. They plotted his death--these Pharisees.

Yes, they were evil.

And then verse 35:
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
--The good heart is the regenerated heart.

I agree here.

Jesus said: "Why call me good; there is none good but One."
Unless the Holy Spirit dwells within there is no chance of one doing good.
There is no chance of that person ever producing the fruit of the Holy Spirit or good fruit, fruit that is acceptable in God's sight. His heart must be made good.

Jesus is speaking of being 100% sinless, absolutely perfect. He was not saying evil men cannot do good things.

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus said sinners can do good. And Cornelius is a perfect example. This is where you and Calvinism goes wrong, you have to look at ALL scripture on a given subject, not proof-text one verse that you think proves corrupt men cannot repent and do good as you are arguing here.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Except for Christ, who here is an exception? Who does not need a Savior?
We need a Savior because we are sinners and our fruit is corrupted. The Lord will not accept it, just as the Lord would not accept Cain's offering although technically there is nothing wrong with the crops of the field.

I agree that all men (except babies and very little children) have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Why do you and others think I believe men are sinless? I believe no such thing.

But I believe sinners can do individual good things. And so did Jesus.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Sinners know how to do good things. Sinners! Sinners! Sinners can do some good things.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Was the publican a sinner? YES. Did he do something good by crying out to God for forgiveness? YES.

You don't get it, if sinners could not do any good thing, or if God did not hear any sinner's prayer, then no sinner could get saved like the publican did.

You seem to think a person must get well before they are able to go to a doctor.

Unbelievable.

 

[DHK]

He is NOT saying they cannot change. He is saying because they have chosen to be a corrupt tree that they can only produce corrupt fruit. Verse 33 absolutely implies they have both the option and ability to be whichever tree they choose to be. Because they have chosen to be a corrupt tree, they can only produce corrupt fruit.

Jesus teaches depravity all throughout. They cannot change because they are born with an evil heart. He told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again. Why? He was born into the wrong family. He had the wrong nature. He needed a new nature. Only then would he be able to produce good or spiritual fruit. He did not choose to be corrupt; he was corrupt; "of the flesh." He needed to be "of the spirit."

If your view was correct, verse 35 would be nonsensical, because you believe all men are born with a corrupt heart. In your view there is no such thing as a man with a good heart. But Cornelius refutes that, he was not saved, and he did not have the Spirit, but he was a very good man.

No he wasn't a very good man. He was good in his own eyes. He was good in the eyes of the Jews. He good in the eyes of the public, even as Luke writes it. But where does it say he was accepted as good in God's eyes? He wasn't. That is only your interpretation and it is false. Nowhere does it say that he was "good" or justified in the eyes of God. Only God is good. Only those that are justified by God can have a small chance of being "good."

Jesus did not say they could not change, you are inserting that into scripture when it is not being said. And vs. 33 absolutely refutes that idea, Jesus said "either make" the tree good and it's fruit good, "or else make" the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt. He didn't say they couldn't change, he implied they could.

Jesus said it was impossible for them to change!!! You are ignoring the context:
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
--These men had committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. They would not be forgiven then, now or in the future. They would never be forgiven; ever!! They could not change. It was impossible for them; others maybe, but not this group. They were condemned already. Pay attention to context.

Jesus, in other chapters, teaches the same principle of depravity, using metaphors and similes that are just as clear. Let's look at a couple.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
--Do grapes have thorns; do figs have thistles?
No! of course not! Good trees produce good fruit.
Corrupt trees produce evil fruit.
What is the context here. The context is false teachers. He was speaking to his disciples. His disciples were to bear fruit, good spiritual fruit. They were the ones that were saved.
Verse 20, he tells them that they were to know them by their fruit. They were to know the false teachers by their fruit. These false teachers had been corrupt from birth. They had never changed. Their fruit had never become good.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
--This is the same verse that is in chapter 12. One cannot make a corrupt tree into a good tree, as you assert. That is not the meaning of the verse. It is stated clearly here. A corrupt tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit. Period!
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
--Instead the corrupt tree is to be cut down and cast into the fire.
That is what will happen to all the unsaved and their good works unless there is divine intervention.

Right, Jesus spoke of things that do not exist, things that are impossible, hypothetical things, etc... What a bunch of garbage.

Verse 33 is no longer hypothetical given the clarity of Mat.7:18:
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Yes, they had chosen to be vipers.

Jesus called them vipers.
John the Baptist called them vipers at the baptism of Jesus:
Mat 3:7
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Jesus told them they were the offspring of Satan:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--They have had that nature all of their lives. They were born into the family of the devil with Satan as their father. They needed to be born again.
In the immediate context Jesus again tells them that Satan is their father.
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

By whom do your children cast them out?? The direct inference here is by the authority of "Beelzebub" or by Satan, their father.

Jesus is speaking of being 100% sinless, absolutely perfect. He was not saying evil men cannot do good things.

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus said sinners can do good. And Cornelius is a perfect example. This is where you and Calvinism goes wrong, you have to look at ALL scripture on a given subject, not proof-text one verse that you think proves corrupt men cannot repent and do good as you are arguing here.

I agree that all men (except babies and very little children) have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Why do you and others think I believe men are sinless? I believe no such thing.

But I believe sinners can do individual good things. And so did Jesus.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Sinners know how to do good things. Sinners! Sinners! Sinners can do some good things.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Was the publican a sinner? YES. Did he do something good by crying out to God for forgiveness? YES.

You don't get it, if sinners could not do any good thing, or if God did not hear any sinner's prayer, then no sinner could get saved like the publican did.

You seem to think a person must get well before they are able to go to a doctor.

Unbelievable.

First, Jesus did teach the depravity of man not the goodness of man.
A corrupt tree does bring forth corrupt fruit, and not without divine intervention will that change.
Second, it is in man's nature, even in the nature of infants to do evil. They lie "as soon as they be born." One needs to teach them to tell the truth, not to lie.
Third, a person does need to get saved before his works are considered good in the sight of God. The Bible teaches that and Jesus teaches that.
Fourth, consider here the teaching of Jesus:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The question the asked of Christ is: What can we DO? What might we WORK that are the works of God? What good works can we do?
Understand the question of verse 28.

Now understand the answer Jesus gave in verse 29.
Man cannot do any good work. There is no good work he can do--zip, nada, zilch, zero, nothing. Not even Cornelius could do anything. No one; not even one could do a single work.
There is only one thing that any of them could do: Believe on him whom he hath sent.
That is the only "work" that God would accept.

 

[Winman]

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

 

[Luke2427]

People do both good and evil. Sometimes people choose good. Most people prefer to work and earn an honest living. They could choose to be a career criminal, but they don't. People have the ability to choose.

It does not matter if they choose to do good when it suits them if they also choose to do evil when it suits them.

The fact that they do what SUITS THEM is proof they are sinners.

I believe it is possible, but HIGHLY improbable. It is possible to get a hit every time you come to bat in baseball, but no one ever has.

Is it equally possible for a person to go through life and never do any good?

 

[Winman]

It does not matter if they choose to do good when it suits them if they also choose to do evil when it suits them.

The fact that they do what SUITS THEM is proof they are sinners.

It is proof they have free will. And no one is denying that all men (but not babies and very little children) are sinners. I believe 100% of men who reach the age of accountability will willingly and knowingly choose to sin.

And it only takes one sin to come short of the glory of God. Just one.

I have never denied that all men are sinners, except for Jesus Christ alone

Is it equally possible for a person to go through life and never do any good?

No, all men do good as well. When you tell the truth, that is good, that is obeying God's commandment. And people do not always have some ulterior motive. I gave the example of someone asking you the time. You look at your watch and tell them it is a quarter past three. You aren't thinking within yourself, "Oh, I have just told the truth, what a fantastic person I am! God will surely be pleased that I told the correct time and let me into heaven when I die!" People don't think like that, they just answer truthfully. That is no sin. People do things like this all the time. When you go to work and earn an honest living, that is good, that is obeying God's commandment not to steal. Folks don't get all worked up because they went to work, they just go because they know they need to.

See, you have let Calvinism poison your view of mankind. You see the very worst in people, much like the Pharisees condemned Jesus for being with and eating with "sinners". Some things never change.

Here is an example of Jesus himself saying a sinner can do good works;

Mat 26:6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.
8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

It is not completely certain, but most believe this Mary was Mary Magdelene, who had been a prostitute. She was called "a sinner" by the Pharisees. But she was quite able to do a "good work" as Jesus himself said.

Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Whoever this woman Mary was, she was considered "a sinner" by the Pharisees, yet she was completely able to do a "good work".

So, this teaching that sinners cannot do good works is easily refuted by scripture.

And yes, I know she was a believer, but she had not received the Holy Spirit yet, as no one received the Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead, which shows that unregenerated persons can both believe and do good works.

 

[DHK]

No, all men do good as well. When you tell the truth, that is good, that is obeying God's commandment. And people do not always have some ulterior motive. I gave the example of someone asking you the time. You look at your watch and tell them it is a quarter past three. You aren't thinking within yourself, "Oh, I have just told the truth, what a fantastic person I am! God will surely be pleased that I told the correct time and let me into heaven when I die!" People don't think like that, they just answer truthfully. That is no sin. People do things like this all the time. When you go to work and earn an honest living, that is good, that is obeying God's commandment not to steal. Folks don't get all worked up because they went to work, they just go because they know they need to.

And they come to the end of their lives and here is what they say:
"I am not a sinner."
"I have done more good than evil."
"I don't need a Savior."
"I am good enough as I am."

Your philosophy has just convinced them of that.
They will die and go to hell because of it.
They cannot see that they are criminals before a holy and righteous God.

 

[Winman]

And they come to the end of their lives and here is what they say:
"I am not a sinner."
"I have done more good than evil."
"I don't need a Savior."
"I am good enough as I am."

Your philosophy has just convinced them of that.
They will die and go to hell because of it.
They cannot see that they are criminals before a holy and righteous God.

Pure nonsense. Just because men can do good works does not negate that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

And my view is not philosophy, it is based on scripture. I showed scripture itself that said Jesus said this woman did a "good work".

 

[Winman]

And they come to the end of their lives and here is what they say:
"I am not a sinner."
"I have done more good than evil."
"I don't need a Savior."
"I am good enough as I am."

Your philosophy has just convinced them of that.
They will die and go to hell because of it.
They cannot see that they are criminals before a holy and righteous God.

You are correct about one thing, many people believe if you do more good than bad that you will go to heaven. This is not my philosophy, this view has been around for thousands of years.

Whenever I encounter someone who believes like this, I ask them if a man was honest all his life, but one day went in with a gun and robbed a bank, would a judge let him go because he has done more good than bad?

And of course almost everyone immediately sees the error of this view. Even if you were good all your life, if you commit one crime you must pay for it and go to jail. Likewise, if we sin but one single time, the wages of that sin is death.

So, the fact that men can do good works does not mean they can merit heaven. If they sin even once they must pay the penalty for that sin, which is death, eternal separation from God.

Your view that sinners cannot do any good thing is extreme and completely against scripture.

 

[DHK]

You are correct about one thing, many people believe if you do more good than bad that you will go to heaven. This is not my philosophy, this view has been around for thousands of years.

Yes it has been around for thousands of years. Every major religion, like Hinduism, supports it. Your philosophy supports it as well. A man can do more good than evil. You believe that. "Telling time, telling the truth, etc."

Whenever I encounter someone who believes like this, I ask them if a man was honest all his life, but one day went in with a gun and robbed a bank, would a judge let him go because he has done more good than bad?

And of course almost everyone immediately sees the error of this view. Even if you were good all your life, if you commit one crime you must pay for it and go to jail. Likewise, if we sin but one single time, the wages of that sin is death.

So, the fact that men can do good works does not mean they can merit heaven. If they sin even once they must pay the penalty for that sin, which is death, eternal separation from God.

Your view that sinners cannot do any good thing is extreme and completely against scripture.

If a man commits one single sin you say. But you don't believe in the illustration you give. So you lie when you give your own illustration. Do you really believe that you an unsaved man will go through life and be good his entire life and only commit one sin. That is the illustration you just gave. It is a lie. It is extreme.
The fact is that not even you can go through one day without sinning more than not sinning. If at the end of the day God were to weigh the good vs. the evil of your life in the balances what would he find? Never mind the unsaved person, what about the saved? We are still criminals before God, just sinners saved by the grace of God.

 

[Winman]

Yes it has been around for thousands of years. Every major religion, like Hinduism, supports it. Your philosophy supports it as well. A man can do more good than evil. You believe that. "Telling time, telling the truth, etc."

That is pure nonsense and you know it. I believe that if you commit even one single sin, the wages of sin is death, and a person would go to hell for that one single sin.

Why must you be dishonest?

If a man commits one single sin you say. But you don't believe in the illustration you give. So you lie when you give your own illustration. Do you really believe that you an unsaved man will go through life and be good his entire life and only commit one sin. That is the illustration you just gave. It is a lie. It is extreme.
The fact is that not even you can go through one day without sinning more than not sinning. If at the end of the day God were to weigh the good vs. the evil of your life in the balances what would he find? Never mind the unsaved person, what about the saved? We are still criminals before God, just sinners saved by the grace of God.

I did not lie at all. I believe men are able to do both good and bad. But if you commit even one single sin in your entire lifetime, then you must pay for that sin and go to hell. That is why we all need Jesus Christ who died for our sins.

You are the one that is extreme, you do not believe a sinner can do any good thing. If that were true, you would have to be a Calvinist. You would have to believe that a person needed to be regenerated before they could believe on Jesus and call on him for salvation. That is Calvinism.

I believe a sinner can do some good. He can repent of his sin, that is good. He can believe the word of God that Jesus died for his sins and rose from the dead, that is good. And he can call on Jesus to save him from his sins. That is good. Sinners can do good, else no sinner could get saved.

You do not believe sinners can get saved. You believe they have to be regenerated before they can call on Jesus. They aren't sinners anymore they are regenerated. You believe you have to be saved so you can get saved. Ridiculous.

You will deny that, but you have said in earlier posts that a sinner's prayer will not reach the ceiling. If that is so, how could a sinner pray to Jesus and ask him to save him?

So, your view is full of all sorts of nonsensical contradictions.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is pure nonsense and you know it. I believe that if you commit even one single sin, the wages of sin is death, and a person would go to hell for that one single sin.

Why must you be dishonest?



I did not lie at all. I believe men are able to do both good and bad. But if you commit even one single sin in your entire lifetime, then you must pay for that sin and go to hell. That is why we all need Jesus Christ who died for our sins.

You are the one that is extreme, you do not believe a sinner can do any good thing. If that were true, you would have to be a Calvinist. You would have to believe that a person needed to be regenerated before they could believe on Jesus and call on him for salvation. That is Calvinism.

I believe a sinner can do some good. He can repent of his sin, that is good. He can believe the word of God that Jesus died for his sins and rose from the dead, that is good. And he can call on Jesus to save him from his sins. That is good. Sinners can do good, else no sinner could get saved.

You do not believe sinners can get saved. You believe they have to be regenerated before they can call on Jesus. They aren't sinners anymore they are regenerated. You believe you have to be saved so you can get saved. Ridiculous.

You will deny that, but you have said in earlier posts that a sinner's prayer will not reach the ceiling. If that is so, how could a sinner pray to Jesus and ask him to save him?

So, your view is full of all sorts of nonsensical contradictions.

We are ALL astray from the Lord, we have a sinful nature, our flesh, that wages war against God, cannot follow nor obey God!

We owe God the sin debt due to us being born as such, and keep on compounding that by still sinning, by submitting to the desires of the flesh!

NONE can keep the law as God requires, NO good work apart from being found in jesus will be acceptable in his sight! Why do you distort scriptures, as one peter addressed concerning those who fail to follow teachings of Paul?

Why do you twist and distort t

 

[Winman]

We are ALL astray from the Lord, we have a sinful nature, our flesh, that wages war against God, cannot follow nor obey God!

We owe God the sin debt due to us being born as such, and keep on compounding that by still sinning, by submitting to the desires of the flesh!

NONE can keep the law as God requires, NO good work apart from being found in jesus will be acceptable in his sight! Why do you distort scriptures, as one peter addressed concerning those who fail to follow teachings of Paul?

Why do you twist and distort t

 

[DHK]

I believe a sinner can do some good. He can repent of his sin, that is good. He can believe the word of God that Jesus died for his sins and rose from the dead, that is good. And he can call on Jesus to save him from his sins. That is good. Sinners can do good, else no sinner could get saved.

You do not believe sinners can get saved. You believe they have to be regenerated before they can call on Jesus. They aren't sinners anymore they are regenerated. You believe you have to be saved so you can get saved. Ridiculous.

You will deny that, but you have said in earlier posts that a sinner's prayer will not reach the ceiling. If that is so, how could a sinner pray to Jesus and ask him to save him?

So, your view is full of all sorts of nonsensical contradictions.

What you have posted here is proof that you do not read my posts.
I said the opposite of this, and here was your exact answer:

Blah, blah, blah

No refutation at all. You don't understand what I believe because you don't read and respond to the post.
I will post it again for you. Hopefully I will get something more intelligent than a "Blah."

Consider here the teaching of Jesus:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The question the asked of Christ is: What can we DO? What might we WORK that are the works of God? What good works can we do?
Understand the question of verse 28.

Now understand the answer Jesus gave in verse 29.
Man cannot do any good work. There is no good work he can do--zip, nada, zilch, zero, nothing. Not even Cornelius could do anything. No one; not even one could do a single work.
There is only one thing that any of them could do: Believe on him whom he hath sent.
That is the only "work" that God would accept.

This is my view, and it contradicts everything that you said that you think I believe. So stop posting false accusations and read what I post. Here is what you need to respond to!!

 

[Winman]

Here is what you said verbatim;

All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. They don't count in the sight of God. God does not look upon them. Their prayers don't go past the ceilings of their houses. "The truth" is for their own selfish benefit, not for the "God" they know not. Therefore it is all in vain.

According to you, the prayers of sinners do not go past the ceiling of their houses. If this were true, no sinner could call on Jesus and be saved.

But now you are changing your tune and admitting that sinners can do a good work, they can believe on Jesus, and they can call on him for salvation.

So, you DO believe sinners can do good after all don't you?

 

[Winman]

What you have posted here is proof that you do not read my posts.
I said the opposite of this, and here was your exact answer:

No refutation at all. You don't understand what I believe because you don't read and respond to the post.
I will post it again for you. Hopefully I will get something more intelligent than a "Blah."

Consider here the teaching of Jesus:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The question the asked of Christ is: What can we DO? What might we WORK that are the works of God? What good works can we do?
Understand the question of verse 28.

Now understand the answer Jesus gave in verse 29.
Man cannot do any good work. There is no good work he can do--zip, nada, zilch, zero, nothing. Not even Cornelius could do anything. No one; not even one could do a single work.
There is only one thing that any of them could do: Believe on him whom he hath sent.
That is the only "work" that God would accept.

This is my view, and it contradicts everything that you said that you think I believe. So stop posting false accusations and read what I post. Here is what you need to respond to!!

Jesus did not say men cannot do a good work, where is that shown in the scripture above? You are reading into scripture what is not there.

I have already showed you where Jesus himself said Mary did a good work. And Peter said that Cornelius "worketh righteousness" BEFORE he heard the gospel and was saved.

Acts 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Cornelius was not saved, and yet the angel told him that his prayers were heard, and that his good works (alms) are had in rememberance by God. Peter speaking of Cornelius says that he feared God and worked righteousness.

You simply do not have a clue. Sinners can do both good works, and God will hear their prayer if they sincerely call out to him.

 

[DHK]

Jesus did not say men cannot do a good work, where is that shown in the scripture above? You are reading into scripture what is not there.

I have already showed you where Jesus himself said Mary did a good work. And Peter said that Cornelius "worketh righteousness" BEFORE he heard the gospel and was saved.

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture.
Stop throwing your red herrings at me and answer the post.

Here is the Scripture that I explained to. Go and read the explanation if you have to and understand how Jesus teaches depravity here:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Winman]

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture.
Stop throwing your red herrings at me and answer the post.

Here is the Scripture that I explained to. Go and read the explanation if you have to and understand how Jesus teaches depravity here:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Your interpretations of scripture are horrendous. Let's look at this passage;

Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In verse 26 Jesus said these Jews sought him because he had fed them with loaves of bread.

Then in verse 27 he tells them not to labor for meat that perishes. Is Jesus telling them that working to provide food for their family is evil? NO, that is not what Jesus is saying. He is not saying that working for food and material things are evil. He IS telling them that it is far more important to work for that food which leads to everlasting life.

They are confused by this, so they ask him what works they should do to do the works of God, and Jesus tells them this is the work of God to believe on HIM.

Does that mean working for food and clothes is evil? NO. You are reading that into scripture when that is NOT what Jesus said at all. He told them that what is truly important is doing what God wants them to do to inherit eternal life, which is believe on Jesus.

And could these sinners believe on Jesus? YES!

It is good to believe on Jesus, it is the work of God, and sinners (Yes Sinners!) can do that. They can believe on Jesus and be forgiven.

And working for a living so you can provide food, shelter, and clothing for your family is not evil, it is GOOD!

You are one mixed up dude.

 

[DHK]

Your interpretations of scripture are horrendous. Let's look at this passage;

Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In verse 26 Jesus said these Jews sought him because he had fed them with loaves of bread.

Then in verse 27 he tells them not to labor for meat that perishes. Is Jesus telling them that working to provide food for their family is evil? NO, that is not what Jesus is saying. He is not saying that working for food and material things are evil. He IS telling them that it is far more important to work for that food which leads to everlasting life.

They are confused by this, so they ask him what works they should do to do the works of God, and Jesus tells them this is the work of God to believe on HIM.

Does that mean working for food and clothes is evil? NO. You are reading that into scripture when that is NOT what Jesus said at all. He told them that what is truly important is doing what God wants them to do to inherit eternal life, which is believe on Jesus.

And could these sinners believe on Jesus? YES!

You are confusing me with someone else. I have never denied that one could not repent or believe on Christ. NEVER!!!!!!!!

So why are you laying that false accusation on me, continually?
The fact is that Jesus told that they could do nothing good but believe on him. That is the only good work that God would accept.
As the Scriptures teach all other works or righteousnesses are just as filthy as dirty "menstrual cloth," and we know how useful one of those are.

 

[Winman]

You are confusing me with someone else. I have never denied that one could not repent or believe on Christ. NEVER!!!!!!!!

So why are you laying that false accusation on me, continually?
The fact is that Jesus told that they could do nothing good but believe on him. That is the only good work that God would accept.
As the Scriptures teach all other works or righteousnesses are just as filthy as dirty "menstrual cloth," and we know how useful one of those are.

You said that the prayers of sinners could not rise past the ceiling. If that were so, no sinner could pray to God like the publican did in Luke 18 and be saved.

Cornelius was not saved regardless of what you think, and yet he prayed always, and God heard his prayers.

Sinners can do individual good things. It is not a sin to go to work so you can provide for your family, the scriptures command a man to do that. Will that merit heaven? NO, and I have never said anyone can merit heaven.

Nevertheless, just because you cannot merit heaven does not mean you cannot do individual good things. Even sinners do good things on a regular basis.

You have let the influence of Calvinism poison your view of mankind. They think EVERYTHING a sinner does is evil. This is why they believe a man must be regenerated before he can believe. They are WRONG. Believing in Jesus is GOOD, and sinners can believe.

And I am not laying a false accusation on you, you have said repeatedly that everything a sinner does is a filthy rag. That is not true. When a sinner does good, like Mary who annointed Jesus's head, that is a good work. Does that make her righteous? No, because any righteousness she might have is soiled and torn by her sin.

The scriptures do not teach we cannot do righteous works, they say the very opposite. But you have listened to Calvinism.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Do the scriptures teach that men cannot do righteous works? NO, they teach that man CAN do righteous works. The problem is, the moment a man sins, then all his righteousness THAT HE HATH DONE shall not be mentioned, in his trespasses and sins he shall die (spiritual death).

You need to quit listening to false teachers and read the Bible.