Why do you sin?

[DHK]

You said that the prayers of sinners could not rise past the ceiling. If that were so, no sinner could pray to God like the publican did in Luke 18 and be saved.

So the prayers to Allah, Buddha, Vishna, Ganesh, etc., God listens to those prayers?? Really? Are you serious?
The unsaved do not know God. They worship another god, a false god. They have no right to pray these words: "Our Father who art in heaven..."
God is not their "Father." Their father is the devil.

Cornelius was not saved regardless of what you think, and yet he prayed always, and God heard his prayers.

This is Calvinism. The Calvinist, (some of them) will say that Cornelius was regenerated before he was saved. Therefore God heard his prayers and answered him. Therefore he had the faith to believe when the gospel, preached by Peter came to him. This is Calvinism that you believe. It is an extreme position of Calvinism. But that is your belief that you are expressing here.

Sinners can do individual good things. It is not a sin to go to work so you can provide for your family, the scriptures command a man to do that. Will that merit heaven? NO, and I have never said anyone can merit heaven.

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus said the only good thing they could do was "believe on him that God had sent." Did He lie?
The scripture you are quoting is in the pastoral epistles. It is written to a pastor which is applicable to believers in a church, not the unsaved. There are many unsaved in our city, and even more in third world nations abroad that are beggars. They still eat. It is a way of living for them, not for the believer.

Nevertheless, just because you cannot merit heaven does not mean you cannot do individual good things. Even sinners do good things on a regular basis.

Yes, selfish good things which in God's sight are not good. They are done for the wrong purpose.
You go to church. Is it good or bad? If you go out of duty rather than to glorify God, then it too is sin.

You have let the influence of Calvinism poison your view of mankind. They think EVERYTHING a sinner does is evil. This is why they believe a man must be regenerated before he can believe. They are WRONG. Believing in Jesus is GOOD, and sinners can believe.

You have made a judgment call which is sin. It doesn't glorify God. And you are wrong. What you state is not what I believe. I told you I don't believe that, and emphasized it in no uncertain terms, but you repeat the same garbage all over again. Why is that?

And I am not laying a false accusation on you, you have said repeatedly that everything a sinner does is a filthy rag.

I don't say that the Bible says it! Is God lying?

That is not true. When a sinner does good, like Mary who annointed Jesus's head, that is a good work. Does that make her righteous? No, because any righteousness she might have is soiled and torn by her sin.

Mary was saved. She knew who Jesus was. Apples and oranges.

The scriptures do not teach we cannot do righteous works, they say the very opposite. But you have listened to Calvinism.

You say God is lying in Isaiah 64:4. How sad!

Eze 18:24

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

He is speaking to the nation of Israel, his chosen people. They are not the unsaved.

Do the scriptures teach that men cannot do righteous works? NO, they teach that man CAN do righteous works. The problem is, the moment a man sins, then all his righteousness THAT HE HATH DONE shall not be mentioned, in his trespasses and sins he shall die (spiritual death).

You need to quit listening to false teachers and read the Bible.

You are the one teaching false doctrine, even implying that God is lying.
Terrible!

 

[Winman]

So the prayers to Allah, Buddha, Vishna, Ganesh, etc., God listens to those prayers?? Really? Are you serious?
The unsaved do not know God. They worship another god, a false god. They have no right to pray these words: "Our Father who art in heaven..."
God is not their "Father." Their father is the devil.

Now, why do you have to be ridiculous? I am not talking about praying to false gods and you know it.

This is Calvinism. The Calvinist, (some of them) will say that Cornelius was regenerated before he was saved. Therefore God heard his prayers and answered him. Therefore he had the faith to believe when the gospel, preached by Peter came to him. This is Calvinism that you believe. It is an extreme position of Calvinism. But that is your belief that you are expressing here.

Almost all Calvinists believe you must be regenerated before you can believe.

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus said the only good thing they could do was "believe on him that God had sent." Did He lie?
The scripture you are quoting is in the pastoral epistles. It is written to a pastor which is applicable to believers in a church, not the unsaved. There are many unsaved in our city, and even more in third world nations abroad that are beggars. They still eat. It is a way of living for them, not for the believer.

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus had just told them not to labor for meat that perishes. He did not say working for food, shelter, and clothing is evil, you are reading that into scripture.

Jesus was simply saying that what is more important is to seek God.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

This is all Jesus is telling these persons, to FIRST seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness. He is not saying that working for physical needs is sin. Paul worked as a tent-maker, was he a sinner for holding a job?

Yes, selfish good things which in God's sight are not good. They are done for the wrong purpose.
You go to church. Is it good or bad? If you go out of duty rather than to glorify God, then it too is sin.

It is not wrong to work for a living. In fact, we are told that a man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel.

You have made a judgment call which is sin. It doesn't glorify God. And you are wrong. What you state is not what I believe. I told you I don't believe that, and emphasized it in no uncertain terms, but you repeat the same garbage all over again. Why is that?

It does glorify God to earn an honest living, we are commanded to do so.

1 The 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

I don't say that the Bible says it! Is God lying?

The Bible does NOT say that everything a sinner does is evil, you cannot show such a verse.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Sinners know how to do good works, Jesus said so.

Mary was saved. She knew who Jesus was. Apples and oranges.

Mary was a sinner when she believed on Jesus, and believing is good.

You say God is lying in Isaiah 64:4. How sad!

No, I am saying you do not understand this scripture. It is not saying we cannot do righteous works, but it is saying all our righteousnesses are marred and torn by sin. But we are not naked, we have a coat on, and that coat is a symbol of righteousness.

He is speaking to the nation of Israel, his chosen people. They are not the unsaved.

If they were saved, then they were sinners who believed, and believing on Jesus is good.

You are the one teaching false doctrine, even implying that God is lying.
Terrible!

I said no such thing and you know it. You must really think people are stupid. I haven't said anything bad about God.

I am saying that you do not understand scripture properly, and I believe the more you say, the more obvious it becomes to everyone.

 

[DHK]

Now, why do you have to be ridiculous? I am not talking about praying to false gods and you know it.

I am not being ridiculous. Every unsaved person prays to a false god. A Roman Catholic prays to a false god, a god that is just as false as Allah or Buddha. Both don't have a relationship with the true and living God, Jesus Christ. They have no right as long as they are unsaved, to call God, "their Father." Indeed, they cannot. That is why their works are evil.

Almost all Calvinists believe you must be regenerated before you can believe.

And that is what you believe concerning Cornelius. Cornelius can do good.
Cornelius can pray. Cornelius has faith. Therefore Cornelius, according to you and the Calvinist must already be regenerated. You must be a Calvinist Winman You have taken their position.
The truth is God does not accept their prayers.
What does the Bible say:

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--God does not hear the sinner's prayer (unless it is to call on him for salvation). He cannot. Sin stands in the way.

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus had just told them not to labor for meat that perishes. He did not say working for food, shelter, and clothing is evil, you are reading that into scripture.

No, that is not what Jesus said:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

First, verse 28 is the beginning of another paragraph.
Second, there is nothing mentioned here about laboring for bread.
Third, the people come to Jesus asking him what they must do to work the works of God.
Then, Jesus answers that the only acceptable work is to believe on him whom God hath sent.
--You are reading into these verses more then what is being said. Don't add to the Scriptures.

Jesus was simply saying that what is more important is to seek God.

Jesus said nothing about seeking Him. He said the only work acceptable to God was to believe on Him.

Mat 6:31

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

This is all Jesus is telling these persons, to FIRST seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness. He is not saying that working for physical needs is sin. Paul worked as a tent-maker, was he a sinner for holding a job?

This is in Matthew at a different time and place. He is speaking to his disciples, obviously.

It is not wrong to work for a living. In fact, we are told that a man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel.

You just answered your own question--"an infidel". He is speaking to Christians, not the unsaved.

It does glorify God to earn an honest living, we are commanded to do so.

1 The 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Again, this is written to believers not the unsaved. Paul commanded THEM, the believers in Thessalonica to work with their own hands, not the unsaved.

The Bible does NOT say that everything a sinner does is evil, you cannot show such a verse.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Sinners know how to do good works, Jesus said so.

No, Jesus was using an illustration. One doesn't draw doctrine from parables and illustrations.
I debate an SDA in the Other Christians denominations Forum. He draws much of his doctrine from passages like these and other parables. He defends doctrines like the annihilation of the wicked, soul sleep, a different and heretical view of the atonement, etc. because he draws knew and odd doctrine from parables and illustrations. You are doing the same thing.
Illustrations do not trump the clear teaching of the Word of God.

Mary was a sinner when she believed on Jesus, and believing is good.

Mary believed. She believed at that time. If she did not believe she would not have taken that action. Your point is moot.

No, I am saying you do not understand this scripture. It is not saying we cannot do righteous works, but it is saying all our righteousnesses are marred and torn by sin. But we are not naked, we have a coat on, and that coat is a symbol of righteousness.

That is not what the verse says is it? You can't even explain it?

(MKJV) But we are all as the unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as a menstruation cloth. And we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

If they were saved, then they were sinners who believed, and believing on Jesus is good.

It is a verse out of the OT about the relationship of the nation of Israel with Jehovah. There is no mention of Jesus. Your entire point is irrelevant. You are taking the scripture out of context--very obvious.

I said no such thing and you know it. You must really think people are stupid. I haven't said anything bad about God.

I am saying that you do not understand scripture properly, and I believe the more you say, the more obvious it becomes to everyone.

You deny the truth of Isaiah 64:6 and in doing so, say that the Bible is wrong. What else can I say.
ALL our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
That is not some of them, or most of them, but all of them.
We are ALL as an unclean thing.
We ALL fade as a leaf.
Over and over again the word "ALL" is used.
That doesn't leave room for even "one."

 

[Inspector Javert]

Cornelius is presumably not saved and does not know Jesus and the Scripture say this of him.

Act 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
He is not yet "saved". however in a vision he hears this:
Act 10:4
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
He has been "heard" by God.


Peter asks him why Cornelius sent for him and Cornelius (after falling down to worship him) answers thus:

I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Act 10:31
And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

Cornelius does not yet know Christ as Peter must explain him to him.

If this passage is read without any preconceptions....an as of yet "unsaved" Cornelius' prayers were heard by God.....

Moreover his almsgiving (that's a "WORK" if anything ever is) God himself says this of in verse 4:
.....Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Cornelius...unregenerated...God says he heard his prayers and his works are a "memorial" to God??
I wish God would say of my works as a CHRISTIAN....that they are a "memorial" to him.
And yet God says that of the works of an unregenerated Roman.

God did not consider the good works (almsgiving and prayers in this instance) of Cornelius to be anything but devout and righteous. It was not evil.

Whatever other direction this conversation takes...
I'm with Winman on his interpretation of the story of Cornelius. He's got it correct.

It is wrong.....dead wrong....to call Cornelius' "good works" anything but good. God considered Cornelius' works to be righteous works.

 

[DHK]

Cornelius is presumably not saved and does not know Jesus and the Scripture say this of him.

Act 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
He is not yet "saved". however in a vision he hears this:
Act 10:4
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
He has been "heard" by God.

The Book of Acts is a book of transition. There are many "exceptions to the rule" or norm, so to speak."

Today, I think most would agree that every unsaved person does not worship the same God that a believer in Christ does.
But Cornelius was a proselyte to the Jewish nation, God's chosen nation. He knew who the true God, Jehovah, was. He had much more truth than the average person. He always acted on the truth that was revealed to him. He did worship God. He worshiped Jehovah. It was simply a matter of hearing more of the truth--that is the gospel.
This was a time of transition. Examples like this--in the book of Acts--a time of transition, cannot be used as the norm. They are exceptions.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Wes, you asked me a few pages ago to give you my take on what Matthew 12:33 meant via Jesus' spoken words. I will do my very best to do so as concisely and precisely as I can. Sooooooo, here goes:


In verse 22, they brought to Him a man possessed and Jesus cast that demon out of him. Then the Pharisees said He was Beelezubub, and cast demons out in the name of a demon. Jesus told them a kingdom divided against itself can not stand. As Brother DHK previously stated, they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. There is no forgiveness for this sin....I know you know this, btw. These are the ones that Jesus told....ye are of your father, the devil....(John 8:44)....ye will not come to Me that ye might have life....(John 5:40)....but ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.....(John 10:26)....

Then in verses 34 & 35 Jesus said this....generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.


Jesus was telling them that a tree....hence man...is known by it's fruit. If you see an apple dangling on a limb, it's an apple tree. A banana bears bananas, &c. IOW, the nature of that tree bears that fruit. An apple tree can not bear figs, thistles, pineapples, bananas, strawberries, etc. It takes someone changing their nature to do this.

Look at it like this. You buy some property that has apple trees on it. You really love yellow delicious apples, but all your trees are red delicious trees. No matter how hard you toil...you fertilize it, water it, prune it, it can not bear yellow apples because it is not its nature to do so. So, you have a friend who has a stand of yellow delicious apples. You go over to him and get some limbs and graft them into some of your red apple trees. Over a period of time, you start getting some yellow apples. Did it do this on its own? No. You, in fact, made this change come about by grafting in some yellow apple limbs.

In John 15, Jesus stated this when He stated He was the Vine....olive vine, and we are the branches. We are the wild olive branches that are grafted in contrary to nature. Our nature was contrary to the things of God until God does a work in us that only He can do.

 

[convicted1]

I wrote this on my blog a while back, and it goes hand-in-hand with the way this thread has headed:

God’s forest, trees that produce good fruit.


In the bible, you can find many references to trees being used as an allegory, as a type to describe man. They are even used to describe God, and I believe as Satan himself. In Genesis 1 verses 11 and 12, God created trees that would produce fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself. Keep this in mind; “And the fruit trees yielding fruit after his kind”(vs 11){I will expound on this as I go further along}. God then made Adam(both Adam and Eve) on the sixth day and placed them in the Garden, telling them they could freely eat of all the trees in the Garden. However, God warned them about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil, telling them that, “In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”(2:17).God had also placed the Tree of Life in the midst of the Garden as well. The Tree of Life was a symbol of Christ, whereas, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a symbol of Satan.

In chapter 3, the serpent, Satan himself, beguiled Eve when he lied and told her they would become as gods, knowing good and evil(3:1-5). Eve ate and gave to Adam and he ate, and both their eyes were opened to see their nakedness. They took fig leaves and covered themselves by girding themselves with these fig leaves. God confronted them and girded them with coats of skins(a sacrifice for sin), and drove them from the Garden, “lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever”(3:22-24). This is why I state that this Tree is a symbol of Jesus Christ Himself. He placed cherubims and a flaming sword to keep the way of the Tree of Life. Right here is the prettiest picture of the gospel. Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life, and the flaming sword is the gospel. The only way to get to the Tree and eat and live forever is to go through the flaming sword(gospel).

It is now where I want to focus on what was said in 1:12; “and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is within itself”. As I previously stated, tress are used as allegories to describe God(Tree of Life), and also man. David wrote in Psalms 1, “And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper”(vs. 3). John the Baptist also stated, “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees; therefore every tree which bringeth not foth good fruit is hewn downand cast into the fire”(Matt. 3:10). Every fruit tree will produce fruit that is within itself. Apple trees will produce apples because it has appleseeds inside of it. The same for the banana tree, peach tree, pear tree, orange tree, etc. No fruit tree can produce fruit that is contrary to it’s seed, because it would be contrary to it’s nature. For it to be able to produce fruit contrary to it’s nature, their nature has to be changed. We as sinners, were products of Adam, post-fall, and have his fallen, sinful nature. Our fruit, our seed, is corrupted fruit, and it is in accordance to our nature. We can produce nothing good, seeing it would be contrary to that nature. We have the nature of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam took upon himself, and us also, being his posterity, because he took on the nature of the Tree of Knowledge when he injested it’s fruit. None of us have the ability to change this nature. God is the only One who can do this for us.

In Ezekiel 11:19 it states, “And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh”. Also in Ezekiel 36:26, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh”. In the beginning of the salvation process, the trees have to have their nature changed before they can produce good fruit. We as sinners, as trees bearing fruit of Adam, post-fall, produce corrupted fruit. We are unable to produce good fruit, seeing it is contrary to our nature. We cannot produce good fruit, fruit that only comes from those who have eaten of the Tree of Life. In Matthew 7, Jesus stated, “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire”(vss 17-19). We, as sinners, produce evil fruit, fruit that is an offspring of Adam’s eating of the Tree of Knowledge. When God regenerates a sinner, He crushes that stony heart, and imparts unto them a new heart, a fleshly heart that can love. By Him doing this, He enables that sinner to come to Him in believing faith. I believe He has given them a taste of the Tree of Life, that quickens them, enables them to believe. He has effectually changed their nature.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of Satan, in my humble opinion. Satan was perfect until iniquity was found within him(Eze. 28:15). Satan, in my opinion, has a knowledge of both, or he at least once, had a knowledge of good. Lust brings sin, and when sin is finished, it brings death(James 1:15). When Adam ate of that Tree, he died spiritually and ushered death unto all mankind, we being his offspring, his posterity. Adam fell due to eating of it, by rebelling against God, and we fell in Adam. We took upon ourselves the nature of Adam, the post-fall Adam. It takes God to give us a new nature, the nature that the Tree of Life possesses.

 

[Winman]

Cornelius is presumably not saved and does not know Jesus and the Scripture say this of him.

Act 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
He is not yet "saved". however in a vision he hears this:
Act 10:4
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
He has been "heard" by God.


Peter asks him why Cornelius sent for him and Cornelius (after falling down to worship him) answers thus:

I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Act 10:31
And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

Cornelius does not yet know Christ as Peter must explain him to him.

If this passage is read without any preconceptions....an as of yet "unsaved" Cornelius' prayers were heard by God.....

Moreover his almsgiving (that's a "WORK" if anything ever is) God himself says this of in verse 4:
.....Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Cornelius...unregenerated...God says he heard his prayers and his works are a "memorial" to God??
I wish God would say of my works as a CHRISTIAN....that they are a "memorial" to him.
And yet God says that of the works of an unregenerated Roman.

God did not consider the good works (almsgiving and prayers in this instance) of Cornelius to be anything but devout and righteous. It was not evil.

Whatever other direction this conversation takes...
I'm with Winman on his interpretation of the story of Cornelius. He's got it correct.

It is wrong.....dead wrong....to call Cornelius' "good works" anything but good. God considered Cornelius' works to be righteous works.

Thank you Inspector.

Calvinism poisons a person's view of mankind. They cannot get enough of saying how evil mankind is, man is a worm, etc...

Yes, all men are sinners, every man has sinned and come short of the glory of God, but scripture does not paint every man as demonic. In fact, scripture speaks very highly of some men.

A good example is those Jews who were gathered to Jerusalem for Pentacost. The scriptures call them "devout men".

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Were these men saved? NO, and Peter preaches them a stinging sermon, accusing them of killing God's Messiah. They are pricked to the heart. That day over 3000 of these men receive Jesus as their Saviour.

But scripture does not speak of all men as desperately wicked the way Calvinism does. It actually speaks of some men of being very good.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Were John the Baptist's parents horribly wicked persons? NO, the scriptures say they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

Now that sounds pretty good doesn't it?

Yes, Zacharias and Elisabeth were believers, but this was well before the Holy Spirit was given. And yet both were able to believe in God, and according to scripture, both were able to live very righteous lives.

I am not saying they weren't sinners, of course they were. Nevertheless they were very good people.

So, this belief that the scriptures teaches men are utterly evil in everything they say and do is completely false and refuted by MUCH scripture. It is a perverted view of reality caused by FALSE teaching.

 

[Winman]

Brother Wes, you asked me a few pages ago to give you my take on what Matthew 12:33 meant via Jesus' spoken words. I will do my very best to do so as concisely and precisely as I can. Sooooooo, here goes:


In verse 22, they brought to Him a man possessed and Jesus cast that demon out of him. Then the Pharisees said He was Beelezubub, and cast demons out in the name of a demon. Jesus told them a kingdom divided against itself can not stand. As Brother DHK previously stated, they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. There is no forgiveness for this sin....I know you know this, btw. These are the ones that Jesus told....ye are of your father, the devil....(John 8:44)....ye will not come to Me that ye might have life....(John 5:40)....but ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.....(John 10:26)....

Then in verses 34 & 35 Jesus said this....generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.


Jesus was telling them that a tree....hence man...is known by it's fruit. If you see an apple dangling on a limb, it's an apple tree. A banana bears bananas, &c. IOW, the nature of that tree bears that fruit. An apple tree can not bear figs, thistles, pineapples, bananas, strawberries, etc. It takes someone changing their nature to do this.

Look at it like this. You buy some property that has apple trees on it. You really love yellow delicious apples, but all your trees are red delicious trees. No matter how hard you toil...you fertilize it, water it, prune it, it can not bear yellow apples because it is not its nature to do so. So, you have a friend who has a stand of yellow delicious apples. You go over to him and get some limbs and graft them into some of your red apple trees. Over a period of time, you start getting some yellow apples. Did it do this on its own? No. You, in fact, made this change come about by grafting in some yellow apple limbs.

In John 15, Jesus stated this when He stated He was the Vine....olive vine, and we are the branches. We are the wild olive branches that are grafted in contrary to nature. Our nature was contrary to the things of God until God does a work in us that only He can do.

Willis, thanks for answering my challenge, I sincerely mean that except...

You did not address verse 33 at all. You danced all around it. You spoke of the verses before it, and the verses after it, but you did not say one word about verse 33, which I believe is the most important verse in this passage, because it shows men can determine whether they are a good tree that produces good fruit, or a corrupt tree that produces corrupt fruit.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Willis, what does Jesus mean when he says, "Either make the tree good" "or else make the tree corrupt"?

I want to know what these words mean to you.

Thanks in advance.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, thanks for answering my challenge, I sincerely mean that except...

You did not address verse 33 at all. You danced all around it. You spoke of the verses before it, and the verses after it, but you did not say one word about verse 33, which I believe is the most important verse in this passage, because it shows men can determine whether they are a good tree that produces good fruit, or a corrupt tree that produces corrupt fruit.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Willis, what does Jesus mean when he says, "Either make the tree good" "or else make the tree corrupt"?

I want to know what these words mean to you.

Thanks in advance.

Brother Wes, I honestly thought I did. Jesus was addressing those Pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit. They accused Jesus of having an unclean Spirit...vs 31.

Also, see the next post of mine where I posted a blog from my blogsite...

 

[convicted1]

Cornelius is presumably not saved and does not know Jesus and the Scripture say this of him.

Act 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
He is not yet "saved". however in a vision he hears this:
Act 10:4
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
He has been "heard" by God.


Peter asks him why Cornelius sent for him and Cornelius (after falling down to worship him) answers thus:

I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Act 10:31
And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

Cornelius does not yet know Christ as Peter must explain him to him.

If this passage is read without any preconceptions....an as of yet "unsaved" Cornelius' prayers were heard by God.....

Moreover his almsgiving (that's a "WORK" if anything ever is) God himself says this of in verse 4:
.....Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Cornelius...unregenerated...God says he heard his prayers and his works are a "memorial" to God??
I wish God would say of my works as a CHRISTIAN....that they are a "memorial" to him.
And yet God says that of the works of an unregenerated Roman.

God did not consider the good works (almsgiving and prayers in this instance) of Cornelius to be anything but devout and righteous. It was not evil.

Whatever other direction this conversation takes...
I'm with Winman on his interpretation of the story of Cornelius. He's got it correct.

It is wrong.....dead wrong....to call Cornelius' "good works" anything but good. God considered Cornelius' works to be righteous works.

Brother, the same can be said of Moses, Aaron(not here on BB either... :smilewinkgrin: ), David, and any of the other OT saints. They didn't know Jesus, but they did know their Saviour was coming to redeem them.

 

[convicted1]

Brother, the same can be said of Moses, Aaron(not here on BB either... :smilewinkgrin: ), David, and any of the other OT saints. They didn't know Jesus, but they did know their Saviour was coming to redeem them.

Daniel prayed three times a day, was shut in the den of lions and God heard his prayers. Was he any different from Cornelius? Daniel was a devout man of God who knew there was the Messiah coming, but didn't personally know Him. He never heard the gospel message that Cornelius heard. Was Daniel left out?

 

[Winman]

Brother Wes, I honestly thought I did. Jesus was addressing those Pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit. They accused Jesus of having an unclean Spirit...vs 31.

Also, see the next post of mine where I posted a blog from my blogsite...

OK Willis, let's see what John the Baptist said. You said this of John the Baptist;

John the Baptist also stated, “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees; therefore every tree which bringeth not foth good fruit is hewn downand cast into the fire”(Matt. 3:10).

John the Baptist did indeed say this, but what did he tell these same persons first?

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Is John saying it is impossible for these Pharisees and Sadducees to bring forth good fruit? NO, he is telling them to bring forth good fruit, fruit "meet for repentance".

This scripture REFUTES your belief that a man is enslaved by his sin nature and must sin. John the Baptist is clearly telling these men to repent and bring forth good fruit.

You need to quit letting men tell you what scripture says and read it for yourself without presuppositions.

 

[convicted1]

The point you're missing Brother Wes is that no sinner goes around sinning every second of the day, and neither whilst they're sleeping. However, they're by nature, sinners and if they die saving a baby...which is a good thing, btw...they'll suffer in torment for being a sinner. A sinner, by nature, is a child of wrath. Their sin is what God sees, not their deeds. Sin permeates every fiber of a sinner, causing him to be at enmity towards God.


ETA: Repentance is a gift of God. How can they do this w/o God giving them the gift of repentance?

 

[convicted1]

I don't read theologians that much. I have read a little, but they never swayed me. God did. :thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

It is proof they have free will. And no one is denying that all men (but not babies and very little children) are sinners. I believe 100% of men who reach the age of accountability will willingly and knowingly choose to sin.

It is proof that they don't love God which is the worst sin any being can ever commit.

Why do you think 100% of people who absolutely have the ability to never commit a singe sin all commit thousands, perhaps millions of sins?

I have never denied that all men are sinners, except for Jesus Christ alone

You have absolutely denied that. When you say that EVERY SINGLE human being who has ever lived was born and lives quite some time without sin you are absolutely denying that all men are sinners.

No, all men do good as well.

Why?

If a man can go through life never doing a bad thing (yes, I know you say he won't but when you say he could choose not to, then you are saying he can) why could not a man go through his whole life and choose to do nothing but evil?


To the other stuff you wrote I will simply say that a fundamental flaw in your theology corrupts your interpretation of all of those verses. That flaw is that you do not understand that sin is internal, long before it is external and that a work can be good in the since of being "beneficial" without being good in the moral sense.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Wes....you're teetering on breaking Commandment #1. You're saying Christ can sin if He chooses to, and man can not sin if they choose to. You're putting God and man on equal ground....exhalting man and lowering God...

 

[Luke2427]

Brother Wes....you're teetering on breaking Commandment #1. You're saying Christ can sin if He chooses to, and man can not sin if they choose to. You're putting God and man on equal ground....exhalting man and lowering God...

I haven't been reading Wes, but that is precisely what Winman does.

 

[psalms109:31]

That is not correct. People who have heard and learned from the word of God come (believe) to Jesus. And THEN when you come or believe on Jesus he gives you life.


Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Life and the Spirit is in the words of Jesus that gives men the ability to come if they do not listen and learn they have no ability to come to have life that is in only in Christ. I am a Calvinist up to the point that Jesus word is preached and through His words they can follow His path. I am not going to change most of the scripture that through the word of God calling out to all man to come and work against the Holy Spirit calling them.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

You think coming to Jesus is life. You are WRONG. You must come to Jesus that ye might have (future tense) life. Coming is just another word for believing, it means to rely upon, depend upon, or trust Jesus. When you come to Jesus in dependence, at that moment he will give you life.

This is where Spurgeon is wrong.

No the words of Jesus gives us the Spirit and life that gives us the ability to come to Jesus to have life if they don't listen and learn they can never have that ability.

Men can will to do God's will, Jesus himself said so.

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

How many men did Jesus imply could will to do God's will here? ANY MAN.

You cannot do the will of God without knowing His will through His word.

No, we are told to go out and TEACH all nations, TEACHING them to observe all that Jesus said. You just saw that for yourself.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.


That is what we are messengers of those who are filled with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Why do you and others keep introducing something I have NEVER said?

We keep mentioning it because it proves men have a sin nature

No, you know they have sinned. The fact that they have sinned is no proof they were born with a sin nature. Satan was not created with a sin nature, yet he was able to sin. The fallen angels and Adam and Eve were all "very good" (Gen 1:31) yet they were all able to sin.

So scripture itself proves that you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. And you cannot show one word of scripture to support your view.

Show me where the Bible says we are born with a sin nature.

All of us has showed you from scripture, but you don't want to see it.

 

[Winman]

Life and the Spirit is in the words of Jesus that gives men the ability to come if they do not listen and learn they have no ability to come to have life that is in only in Christ. I am a Calvinist up to the point that Jesus word is preached and through His words they can follow His path. I am not going to change most of the scripture that through the word of God calling out to all man to come and work against the Holy Spirit calling them.

Well of course, no man can believe what he does not know, so no man can come to Jesus unless he hears and learns from the word of God.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Yes, it is the power that brings salvation to everyone who believes. It does not say it is the power "to believe", all men have the God given ability to believe.

No the words of Jesus gives us the Spirit and life that gives us the ability to come to Jesus to have life if they don't listen and learn they can never have that ability.

It gives you the ability to believe in the sense that no one can believe what they do not know.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask, "and how shall they believe unless they be made alive?" NO.

Does Paul ask, "and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" YES.

So what does Paul imply is necessary for a man to believe on Jesus? They must HEAR of Jesus. That's all, Paul doesn't imply that anything else is necessary. He simply says they must hear of Jesus to believe. He doesn't say they must be made alive to believe here or anywhere else in all of scripture.

You cannot do the will of God without knowing His will through His word.

Exactly. You do not have to be made alive to will to do God's will, but you do have to hear of God's will to will to do God's will. You are starting to catch on.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Yes, but you must receive or believe those words first. Only when you believe those words are you made alive. No one has life until they believe.

This is what we are messengers of those who are filled with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Yes, and all scripture says you must first believe before you receive the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question here demands the answer that we receive the Spirit by first hearing and believing the gospel.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul's question here implies that a person receives the Spirit AFTER they believe. You are not alive without the Spirit, therefore a person believes when they are dead in sin, but the moment they believe they receive the Spirit and life.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This scripture says you have to believe that "ye might have life".

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the living shall hear his voice? NO, he said "the dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

We keep mentioning it because it proves men have a sin nature

The fact that all men have sinned DOES NOT prove we are born with a sin nature. Satan was perfect, he sinned. The fallen angels and Adam and Eve were very good, yet they sinned. So sinning does not prove you were born with a sin nature whatsoever.

All of us has showed you from scripture, but you don't want to see it.

And I could say the same to you. I just showed you where Jesus said "the dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

You do not have to be made alive to believe, you believe to be made alive.

You do not have to have life to come to Jesus, you must come to Jesus to have life.

You need to quit listening to Calvinists, they teach the exact opposite of what scripture really says.