Why does faith+works=not saved?

As an aside, I had a teacher in Bible college who gave a test on the 17 steps of salvation. I gave the correct answer in one step, but failed the test. I dropped the class that same day, BTW.

 

You don't appear to have faith in what God said. What did God say in 1Cor.1:17,18 through the hand of Paul. He clearly said that baptism was not part of the gospel. Paul clearly said that God had not sent him to baptize, but to preach the gospel. It is clearly said that that the preaching of the gospel does not include baptism, and as Paul preached the gospel, as far as his preaching the gospel was concerned baptism wasn't even important to him. Yet you have not addressed this question, and seem to have no answer for this portion of God's Word. Perhaps it is not important to you.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Paul obviously understood the importance of baptism and this very passage proves it! It proves just the opposite of what you want it to.

What does Paul say it would take to belong to someone? They would have to be crucified for you and you would have to be baptized into their name.

Let's look at the entire context, I Cor 1:10-17 "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is condemning division. That is why he was thankful that he had not baptized more people, because more people would have been claiming, "I am of Paul" and "so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name" - (vs15).

Again, Paul sets them straight. For you to belong to me, I would have to be crucified for you and then you would have to be baptized in my name, then you would belong to me.

He knew that is exactly how we belong to Christ. Jesus was crucified for us and we are baptized into his name, therefore we belong to Christ.

You say Paul minimized baptism. That is not true. In fact Paul did baptize some of them. If baptism had no part in the gospel, why then did Paul baptize anyone? That is a question you cannot answer and be consistent.

Were the Corinthians baptized? Yes. Let's go to Acts 18:8, "...And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized." (Notice the consistency of this and the combination of Matt 28:18-20 and Mark 16:16).

Ok, so Paul preached to them. What did he preach? The gospel (vs 17). What was the response to those who heard and believed? They were baptized (Acts 18:8).

If the gospel contained nothing about baptism, then why were they baptized?

The Corinthins had been baptized. Paul did the preaching (Acts 18), others did most of the baptized (I Cor 1).

The good news does indeed contain instructions concerning water baptism. Always has, always will.

Acts 8:5, "Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ."

Their response, "But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." (vs 12).

Notice how this agrees perfectly with Matt 28:18-20 and Mark 16:16.

Another example is found a few verses later, "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?" (Acts 8:35-36)

The first words out of the eunuch's mouth after being told the good news about Jesus is concerning water baptism.

The good news (gospel) absolutely contains instructions for water baptism.

 

A Baptist believes that baptism follows salvation and is symbolic of his salvation--his old life of sin buried, and raised again to a new life in Christ.

The COC beleives in the heresy of baptismal regeneration, that it is impossible to be saved without being baptized. That is why baptism is so close to the profession of faith. It is part of the salvation process. They believe in salvation by works--that there are five (if I remember correctly) separate works to salvation--faith + confession + repentance + belief + baptism = salvation. (I might have one of them wrong.) Nevertheless there are five separate acts to salvation. It is salvation by works. Baptism is one of those acts. It is part of salvation. In their theology it is impossible to be saved without it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I have never met one member of the church who has ever taught or believed what you portray. It is FALSE and I would appreciate you not making false statements. Just because you don't believe it and you certainly don't understand it, don't try to describe it.

Here is what I believe. I am saved by faith through grace (Eph 2:8). Isn't that simple. I don't work for my salvation. I don't earn ANY part of my salvation. Anyone who claims I do is a LIAR! Maybe a sincere liar, but a liar none the less.

There is no work involved in salvation, because I can't earn it, I don't deserve it, all that good work I could do, is but filthly rags.

There is no question that salvation is by faith. That is made clear in scripture time and time again.

The only source of faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). I can have faith in a lot of things, but God pleasing faith must have the bible as it's source.

Why would anyone confess Jesus as Lord? Well, the bible says to. Matt 10:32, Rom 10:10-13 and other places. Confess is done by faith. If there were no instuctions or examples of anyone confessing, then confession would not be done by faith. The reason I confess is because of the instructions and examples given to me in the bible. If someone believed in Jesus and yet refused to confess him, would we claim they were still "justified by belief only"?

Why would I repent? Because it is a good thing to do and I came up with it on my own? No, but because God's word gives me instructions and examples. (Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, and other places). Therefore I repent through faith, or repentance is an act of faith. If someone believed and confess, yet refused to repent of any of their sins, would any be so bold as to claim they are justifies by belief only?

Why in the world would anyone be baptized in water? Because it earns something? Of course not. Because it makes sense? No. The only reason to be baptized in water is because God said so. We have been given instuctions and examples we have in the bible. Jesus made a statement so simple, you literally have to want to misunderstand it to come away with the wrong meaning, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Do I believe this? Yes, I have faith in this statement. Do I understand it? No, but I accept it by faith. Therefore, it is though faith that I am baptized. Isn't that exactly what Paul said in Gal 3:26-27, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

When we understand that biblical, pleasing faith is not belief only, then the beautiful harmony of the scriptures can be see with such clarity.

Passages such as Eph 2:8-10:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

are in perfect and complete harmony with:

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

and we can see how, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." - Jn 3:36 (NAS) makes perfect sense.

Again, I do not earn one iota of my salvation, and I am thankful to God that he has given me this wonderful gift that I did not earn or deserve.

 

Actually we do have scriputral evidence that he baptized people.

While there could be some speculation in Acts 16:33 as to who did the baptizing, there is little speculation in Acts 19:1-5, and no speculation in I Cor 1:14,16 where Paul stated he specifically baptized certian individuals.

 

The reason is that there is no "indoctrination" required. When a person believes, wants to change their life and is willing to confess and be baptized, the Lord addes them to the chruch (Acts 2:38, 41, 47).

You can believe this or not, but it is the truth. I now have a good friend who used to be a "baptist". He started really studying the scriptures. He did not go to the scriptures and try to use them to prove what he already believed, rather he wanted to use to scriptures as the source of his belief. He realized there was a difference. OSAS was determined to be a false doctrine. Remember, he is studying on his own without anyone to "help" him misunderstand anything. He talks to his "pastor" and his pastor could not defend OSAS in light of the scriptures. That caused him to study more, wondering what else he believed that was wrong. He realized he needed to be baptized for the remission of his sins (Remember, he is studying on his own). Through his study of God's word, he came to know the truth. We now believe exactly alike in matters concerning salvation and on nearly every subject, we are in complete agreement. We still have discussions as to the meaning of certain passages, but in matters of salvation, complete harmony. We worship together and no one had to "indoctrinate" him. He was baptized into Christ, the Lord added him to the church and he now worships under the oversight of the elders of a local congregation. All of this, by studying God's word.

 

We are saved by grace and through Faith. But Paul also says that faith without works is dead. It almost sounds like a contradiction, but one of the many reasons for this is to keep Christians from using the "grace through faith" verse as an excuse to be lazy. Jesus gave us a guide to live our Christian lives in his teachings, and they listed plenty of "works" that we have a spiritual obligation to do. Works don't save us, but we do them because we ARE saved.

---Justin

 

A Baptist believes that baptism follows salvation and is symbolic of his salvation--his old life of sin buried, and raised again to a new life in Christ.

The COC beleives in the heresy of baptismal regeneration, that it is impossible to be saved without being baptized. That is why baptism is so close to the profession of faith. It is part of the salvation process. They believe in salvation by works--that there are five (if I remember correctly) separate works to salvation--faith + confession + repentance + belief + baptism = salvation. (I might have one of them wrong.) Nevertheless there are five separate acts to salvation. It is salvation by works. Baptism is one of those acts. It is part of salvation. In their theology it is impossible to be saved without it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Two questions:

1. Can a person claim faith but not obey Jesus? Can they Have it on there mind of who Christ is and how He wants them to live, but choose not to, but it still be considere an acceptable faith to Christ?

2. "Works" - we know the bible Never refers to baptism as a work, but you catagorize it as a work. So this is my question is "Faith" as you define it work?

"heresy"? Can't prove it at all. But everyone entitled to their own opinion.

 

Actually we do have scriputral evidence that he baptized people.

While there could be some speculation in Acts 16:33 as to who did the baptizing, there is little speculation in Acts 19:1-5, and no speculation in I Cor 1:14,16 where Paul stated he specifically baptized certian individuals. </font>[/QUOTE]Jim1999
And you say that to make what point?

 

Saving faith? Absolutely. People do it all the time. If they didn't they would be perfect. Are you perfect? Do you obey Christ every minute, every second, every day, every week, month, year of your life without failure in any part of your life. Have you never told even one lie since you were saved. If the answer is yes you just lied and disobeyed Christ.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Faith is the confidence in the word of another. Biblical faith is the confidence in the Word of Christ that what He has said will ocme to pass. In other words confidence that if you believe on him you will be saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." It is as simple as that. Salvation is thus by faith alone.

Obedience follows salvation. But disobedience does not mean one loses salvation. That is a heretical belief and infers that Christ is a liar. Did Christ lie when he said, "I give unto you eternal life?" Yes or no?

Your Declaration of Independence states: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." These truths in the Bible are self-evident. They don't need to be explained every time a COC questions them. It does not say that prayer is a work, and yet it is. It does not say that witnessing is a work and yet it is. And so on. Baptism is a work. It is a work of man and not of God. Man does the baptizing and man receives the baptism. God is not in the picture. God does not come down from Heaven and baptize anyone. It is all of man. It is a symbolic picture wherein the person getting baptized gets wet. He gets immersed in water. It is purely symbolic. It has nothing to do with salvation. It is a work of man done in obedience to Christ, after salvation. Prayer is a work of man as well. It takes work to pray. And so it is with baptism.

Faith is not a work. Faith is belief. It is intangible. It comes from the heart. It is a decision of the heart. Jesus in a sarcastic remark said:

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

They wanted to know what they could do--what were the works they coud do to enter heaven--baptism, etc. There are no works. You can't get to heaven by works. That is why Jesus answered sarcastically the way that he did. The only thing you can do is believe (which in reality is not a work). It is the work of God, not of man. This work you cannot do.

Baptismal regeneration is one of the oldest heresies known to the church. It is likened to the occult. The magic of water doesn't save. Jeremiah mocked it:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
DHK

 

There are sciptures, when taken out of context seem to teach against OSAS. So a person gets tripped up on those, and then asks a pastor who cannot defend what he believes, and then continuing on that route, he misunderstands more scriptures, and falls into baptismal regeneration. That made him ripe for the Church of Christ.
This doesn't prove that CofC doctrine is what "one learns by just reading the Bible alone". It is based on misunderstandings of vrious scriptures. I fell into this as well, when I thought that just by reading the scriptures, one should be a sabbatarian. After all, the ten commandments say the 7th day, not Sunday. Also that Jesus was a different being from "God". So then I was ripe for Armstrongism, which I thought was closest to being based "just on the Bible alone" (I still knew enough to stay clear of some of their other teachings). But this missed a lot of other teaching in the scriptures on the subject, that have to be taken together. And we see that one can think any number of doctrinal systems to be "the clear tewching of the Bible by itself" all depending on which scriptures they encounter and misinterpret first. (the rest are then bent to fit the teaching falsely extracted from the first). Else, why isn;t the Cof C bigger than it is? There are plenty of people trying to read the Bible for itself, set aside all previously held assumptions, bias and traditions, and get the purest teaching out of it. And more will still come up with something closer to a mainstream evangelical faith than they will CofC.

So back to the main subject, most people have to be convinced out of their previous belief by a CofC evangelist. So if any of us 'lost souls' here suddenly say we are convinced of your doctrine, are you going to come to us and baptize us immediately? Or if you send us to the nearest CofC, will they? (and there are several different CoC groups, and other Campbellists, who believe the same basic doctrines, but in the typical "sectarian one-upmanship" fashion, still reject each other).

This is just a word game. So deeds done which in themselves lead to salvation aren't "'earning' salvation", simply because the only reason you are doing them is because God told you.
Work isn't really work, only because you didn't do it on your own. Right away, all you have to do is look at the Lawkeeping of the Jews mentioned in the NT, (which you generally would amit is "works"), and it is the same thing. The only reason anyone would be keeping a sabbath or being circumcised, or not eating certain animals is because God told them so. So then were those Paul was criticizing really acting in "faith" then too? Then why was he criticizing them in the first place?
Once again, the question is who is doing the "work" in salvation? Us or God? you claim it is God, simply because he gives us instructions" --and on what- certain deeds (work!) for us to do to be saved. But then it is man doing the work! Just giving instructions is not work, even though it may warrant credit and thanks.

 

Quote:
While there could be some speculation in Acts 16:33 as to who did the baptizing, there is little speculation in Acts 19:1-5, and no speculation in I Cor 1:14,16 where Paul stated he specifically baptized certian individuals.
----------------------------------------------

Acts 16:33..it is pure speculation that Paul baptized anyone,,Silas was there also.

Acts 19: 1-5...John's baptism is mentioned, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit,,,,salvation and subsequent gift,,water baptism is not mentioned.

1 Cor 1:13ff..on this scripture I concede.

My reason..I simply forgot and hence I posed the question. Sorry for the misunderstanding..I am old, you know and I have trouble knowing what day it is half the time.

Cheers,

Jim

 

A Baptist believes that baptism follows salvation and is symbolic of his salvation--his old life of sin buried, and raised again to a new life in Christ.

The COC beleives in the heresy of baptismal regeneration, that it is impossible to be saved without being baptized. That is why baptism is so close to the profession of faith. It is part of the salvation process. They believe in salvation by works--that there are five (if I remember correctly) separate works to salvation--faith + confession + repentance + belief + baptism = salvation. (I might have one of them wrong.) Nevertheless there are five separate acts to salvation. It is salvation by works. Baptism is one of those acts. It is part of salvation. In their theology it is impossible to be saved without it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I have never met one member of the church who has ever taught or believed what you portray. It is FALSE and I would appreciate you not making false statements. Just because you don't believe it and you certainly don't understand it, don't try to describe it.

Here is what I believe. I am saved by faith through grace (Eph 2:8). Isn't that simple. I don't work for my salvation. I don't earn ANY part of my salvation. Anyone who claims I do is a LIAR! Maybe a sincere liar, but a liar none the less.

There is no work involved in salvation, because I can't earn it, I don't deserve it, all that good work I could do, is but filthly rags.

There is no question that salvation is by faith. That is made clear in scripture time and time again.

The only source of faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). I can have faith in a lot of things, but God pleasing faith must have the bible as it's source.

Why would anyone confess Jesus as Lord? Well, the bible says to. Matt 10:32, Rom 10:10-13 and other places. Confess is done by faith. If there were no instuctions or examples of anyone confessing, then confession would not be done by faith. The reason I confess is because of the instructions and examples given to me in the bible. If someone believed in Jesus and yet refused to confess him, would we claim they were still "justified by belief only"?

Why would I repent? Because it is a good thing to do and I came up with it on my own? No, but because God's word gives me instructions and examples. (Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, and other places). Therefore I repent through faith, or repentance is an act of faith. If someone believed and confess, yet refused to repent of any of their sins, would any be so bold as to claim they are justifies by belief only?

Why in the world would anyone be baptized in water? Because it earns something? Of course not. Because it makes sense? No. The only reason to be baptized in water is because God said so. We have been given instuctions and examples we have in the bible. Jesus made a statement so simple, you literally have to want to misunderstand it to come away with the wrong meaning, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Do I believe this? Yes, I have faith in this statement. Do I understand it? No, but I accept it by faith. Therefore, it is though faith that I am baptized. Isn't that exactly what Paul said in Gal 3:26-27, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

When we understand that biblical, pleasing faith is not belief only, then the beautiful harmony of the scriptures can be see with such clarity.

Passages such as Eph 2:8-10:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

are in perfect and complete harmony with:

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

and we can see how, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." - Jn 3:36 (NAS) makes perfect sense.

Again, I do not earn one iota of my salvation, and I am thankful to God that he has given me this wonderful gift that I did not earn or deserve. </font>[/QUOTE]great post Mman

 

I believe, that by the discussions with the regular posters of the COC members on this board, my assessment is fairly accurate.

You can shout that all you want; just as a Catholic can shout that he is saved by faith. But both statements are false. Both Catholics and the COC are saved by faith plus baptism which means you are not saved by faith at all, but rather you are saved by works. Your salvation is works based. As long as baptism remains the focus of your salvation you are saved by works. You believe in baptismal regeneration, that it is impossible to be saved without baptism.
As you indicated: If I would have died in the intervening years between the time I trusted Christ as my Saviour and the time that I got baptized I would have gone to Hell. True? My daughter trusted Christ a couple of weeks ago. She is not baptized yet. Will she go to heaven or hell if she were to die tonight? You would say hell. Correct? Baptism is an absolute necessity for entrance into heaven according to your theology. That makes your salvation a salvation of works and not of faith.

The Bible says:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You don't believe this. You believe that a man is saved by works--the work of baptism--a human work.
It is a denial of grace and a denial of faith.
Your salvation is based on works not on faith.
DHK

 

Jesus came up with baptism not man. So it is a work of God not man.

 

Jesus came up with baptism not man. So it is a work of God not man. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus prayed.
Jesus witnessed.
Jesus healed.
Jesus did many things.

One thing that Jesus doesn't do is come down in the flesh and baptize you. You are baptized by a man. A man does the baptizing and a person receives the baptizing. You get wet when you get baptized. There is no magic in it. Man does it; receives it, etc. It is a work of man, not of God.

Prayer is a work of man.
Witnessing is a work of man.
Baptism is a work of man.

All of these things we, as believers must do. They are works. We are exhorted to do good works. And the first work of obedience for a Christian to do is that of baptism. To say that baptism has anything to do with salvation is heresy. It is akin to spitting in the face of Jesus and saying: "Jesus your blood was not enough, not sufficient to cover my sins; I must help you out by being baptized." That is heresy, if not outright blasphemy.
DHK

 

Once again, it's not a work of man simply because man didn't come up with it.
Where do they get this stuff from?
It's not who CAME UP WITH the work; it's who PERFORMS it that is decisive in this issue.

 

First - work is to believe in Jesus.

Were the writers of the scriptures working of there own accord or Gods? God's obviously, so it is God at work through man.

What "work" as YOU say does the one getting baptized do? Is walking to the waters work? Maybe opening the bible and reading it is work too. Thinking and praying are not works according to you(though it is something we do)? Your hole reference and opposition to "works" does not come from God but from your own weak position. Your opinion of "works" is just plain dumb.

You define works as:
Anything that you do outside of your thoughts and feelings is a work that you are trying to be Justified by. That's completely ignorant. Good thing Jesus doesn't agree with you and nor does any of the apostles.

God performs the baptism and uses us as the tool. It is his approval and work from the time a person comes to believing till the time they die.

You read it before but reject as you do many passages that does not agree with your theology

Let me help you out, before you say "Well, Notice it says 'whoever does not believe will be condemned' they don't mention not being baptized there.

Common sense will tell that you don't baptize some one who does not believe.

True belief and baptism goes together. Peter and Paul understood that, but you don't

Again, Jesus' baptism was never refered to as a work by Paul or the others, but only by you. Baptism is your issue not the church.

 

I believe, that by the discussions with the regular posters of the COC members on this board, my assessment is fairly accurate.

You can shout that all you want; just as a Catholic can shout that he is saved by faith. But both statements are false. Both Catholics and the COC are saved by faith plus baptism which means you are not saved by faith at all, but rather you are saved by works. Your salvation is works based. As long as baptism remains the focus of your salvation you are saved by works. You believe in baptismal regeneration, that it is impossible to be saved without baptism.
As you indicated: If I would have died in the intervening years between the time I trusted Christ as my Saviour and the time that I got baptized I would have gone to Hell. True? My daughter trusted Christ a couple of weeks ago. She is not baptized yet. Will she go to heaven or hell if she were to die tonight? You would say hell. Correct? Baptism is an absolute necessity for entrance into heaven according to your theology. That makes your salvation a salvation of works and not of faith.

The Bible says:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You don't believe this. You believe that a man is saved by works--the work of baptism--a human work.
It is a denial of grace and a denial of faith.
Your salvation is based on works not on faith.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Here is what you believe. You can say anything you want, but this is what you believe. You believe that a person is saved by belief only.

Let’s just see some of the consequences of this false premise.

If one was saved by faith only, then the people in John 12:42 are good to go. They believed in Jesus. They wouldn’t confess him, but since that is something that man does, confession is absolutely not required. Jesus statements in Matt 10:32 or the statement in Rom 10:9-10 don’t really mean you have to confess, because belief only saves, right? Therefore confession is unnecessary and unessential because Eph 2:8 mentions nothing about confession. Any verse stating a need to confess must then be twisted away. OK, confession is a good thing to do, but when pressed is unessential.

Did your daughter not believe that Jesus was the Christ before a couple of weeks ago? What does her trusting have to do with anything? She only needs to believe. She does not have to confess, repent of anything, only believe. Faith only, right? In other words, did you daughter believe before or after she “trusted” Jesus? It couldn’t have been after since you cannot trust in whom you do not believe. Therefore, she was saved before she trusted because she believed before she trusted.

You believe that the inspired apostle Peter, who was speaking as the Holy Spirit gave him utterance, told them wrong in Acts 2, don’t you? They asked what must we do? Peter should have told them, it is obvious that you believe, I can see that you are cut to the heart. You don’t have to do anything! That would have been closer to your answer than his answer of “repent and be baptized… for the remission of sins”.

You believe that repentance is unnecessary because that is something that man does. He has to expend energy to make a mental change to live for God. He has to change his actions. A difference, that makes no difference, is no difference. Repentance that does not result in some change of action, is not repentance, only words. Peter indicated that the forgiveness of sins comes after repentance. I guess he got that wrong, because one is saved by belief only. Poor old Peter just couldn’t get anything right could he. I guess actually, it was the Holy Spirit that kept getting it wrong. He should have said, "You already believe so your sins are forgiven, now repent and baptized because your sins have been forgiven.

So, when the bible says, "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30) that is not really a command at all, it is merely a suggestion, since it is optional. Belief only is required. Yes, your beliefs may change your actions, but belief only is what saves.

Jesus Himself got it wrong also. He said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. - Mark 16:16 He really meant, He that believeth shall be saved. I wonder why He got it wrong. He also got it wrong when He was talking to Saul on the road to Damascus. He told Saul to go into the city and it would be told to him what he MUST DO. That doesn’t sound like an optional statement to me, but I guess it really was. Why was he told to do anything? He believed. He called Jesus Lord. Why would Jesus say there was something he MUST DO? What was the very first thing Saul was told to do? The first thing he was told to do is Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord? (Acts 22:16) What sins did he need to have washed away since they were obviously washed away when he believed and called Jesus Lord. He trusted Him because he obeyed the instructions to go to the city and wait and it will be told to you what you MUST DO. Luke surely recorded this wrong. His sins were already washed away and didn’t need to be washed away again and Ananias’ instructions were useless and he really didn’t have to do anything, right?

So, here’s what you really believe. You believe that one is saved by faith only, or in other words, belief only. “Trusting” Jesus is unessential, because you cannot trust in whom you do not believe. Confession is unessential. Repentance is unessential. Baptism is unessential. Any crack you open to pull one of these in, the others come also, because I can show you where each of these is necessary for salvation.

You can say anything you want, but this is what you actually believe.

 

Jesus came up with baptism not man. So it is a work of God not man. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus prayed.
Jesus witnessed.
Jesus healed.
Jesus did many things.

One thing that Jesus doesn't do is come down in the flesh and baptize you. You are baptized by a man. A man does the baptizing and a person receives the baptizing. You get wet when you get baptized. There is no magic in it. Man does it; receives it, etc. It is a work of man, not of God.

Prayer is a work of man.
Witnessing is a work of man.
Baptism is a work of man.

All of these things we, as believers must do. They are works. We are exhorted to do good works. And the first work of obedience for a Christian to do is that of baptism. To say that baptism has anything to do with salvation is heresy. It is akin to spitting in the face of Jesus and saying: "Jesus your blood was not enough, not sufficient to cover my sins; I must help you out by being baptized." That is heresy, if not outright blasphemy.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]The true blasphemy is denying Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

Jesus is not a liar. This verse is true even if you continue to reject it.

 

The only one spitting in Jesus' face are those who You baptism Jesus means nothing to my salvation. Baptism is directly connected to Christ because he made it happen through is death.

this is your problem along with others out there:

What you are missing here is that God chose to use something physical & spiritual to bring us to him in a new covenant. This is NOT uncommon with God at all.

Consider Christ: A physical/spirtual act to bring about forgiveness.

It's seen all throughout the old testament and new testament.

If you don't believe baptism is necessary then Jesus' death should be questioned too since He has the authority to forgive sins before dying. But He still chose to Die (physical).

Baptism is From God. And combined with a genuine faith it saves by connecting us to Christ.

The sad thing is you can't see that all your doing is adding and twisting your own verson of the gospel. You draw the line of what "Work" is. And all work to you(even obeying Jesus) seems worthless and Mosiac. Paul doesn't see it that way.