Hope of Glory
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As an aside, I had a teacher in Bible college who gave a test on the 17 steps of salvation. I gave the correct answer in one step, but failed the test. I dropped the class that same day, BTW.
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Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
The message of Jesus hasn't changed.
You are wrong.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
If baptism was so important why does Paul draw such a clear distinction between baptism and the gospel. He tells the Corinthians that God did not call him to baptize. But rather God called him to preach the gospel. That's plain English. Or do you need the Greek explained here as well. It means: There is no baptism in the gospel and there never was.
You don't appear to have faith in what God said. What did God say in 1Cor.1:17,18 through the hand of Paul. He clearly said that baptism was not part of the gospel. Paul clearly said that God had not sent him to baptize, but to preach the gospel. It is clearly said that that the preaching of the gospel does not include baptism, and as Paul preached the gospel, as far as his preaching the gospel was concerned baptism wasn't even important to him. Yet you have not addressed this question, and seem to have no answer for this portion of God's Word. Perhaps it is not important to you.I just figured out the difference between you and me. You have faith in what God did not say and I have faith in what God did say.
A Baptist believes that baptism follows salvation and is symbolic of his salvation--his old life of sin buried, and raised again to a new life in Christ.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eric B:
I find it hard to believe a CofC would baptize someone into their church so fast wothout making sure he is indoctrinated with CofC teaching).
Actually we do have scriputral evidence that he baptized people.Originally posted by Jim1999:
As I recall, there is no scriptural evidence that Paul baptized anyone!
Cheers,
Jim
The reason is that there is no "indoctrination" required. When a person believes, wants to change their life and is willing to confess and be baptized, the Lord addes them to the chruch (Acts 2:38, 41, 47).Originally posted by Eric B:
(and one of you said that you would baptize on the spot, but I find it hard to believe a CofC would baptize someone into their church so fast wothout making sure he is indoctrinated with CofC teaching).
A Baptist believes that baptism follows salvation and is symbolic of his salvation--his old life of sin buried, and raised again to a new life in Christ.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eric B:
I find it hard to believe a CofC would baptize someone into their church so fast wothout making sure he is indoctrinated with CofC teaching).
Actually we do have scriputral evidence that he baptized people.Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim1999:
As I recall, there is no scriptural evidence that Paul baptized anyone!
Cheers,
Jim
Saving faith? Absolutely. People do it all the time. If they didn't they would be perfect. Are you perfect? Do you obey Christ every minute, every second, every day, every week, month, year of your life without failure in any part of your life. Have you never told even one lie since you were saved. If the answer is yes you just lied and disobeyed Christ.Originally posted by Tazman:
Two questions:
1. Can a person claim faith but not obey Jesus? Can they Have it on there mind of who Christ is and how He wants them to live, but choose not to, but it still be considere an acceptable faith to Christ?
Your Declaration of Independence states: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." These truths in the Bible are self-evident. They don't need to be explained every time a COC questions them. It does not say that prayer is a work, and yet it is. It does not say that witnessing is a work and yet it is. And so on. Baptism is a work. It is a work of man and not of God. Man does the baptizing and man receives the baptism. God is not in the picture. God does not come down from Heaven and baptize anyone. It is all of man. It is a symbolic picture wherein the person getting baptized gets wet. He gets immersed in water. It is purely symbolic. It has nothing to do with salvation. It is a work of man done in obedience to Christ, after salvation. Prayer is a work of man as well. It takes work to pray. And so it is with baptism.2. "Works" - we know the bible Never refers to baptism as a work, but you catagorize it as a work. So this is my question is "Faith" as you define it work?
Baptismal regeneration is one of the oldest heresies known to the church. It is likened to the occult. The magic of water doesn't save. Jeremiah mocked it:"heresy"? Can't prove it at all. But everyone entitled to their own opinion.![]()
There are sciptures, when taken out of context seem to teach against OSAS. So a person gets tripped up on those, and then asks a pastor who cannot defend what he believes, and then continuing on that route, he misunderstands more scriptures, and falls into baptismal regeneration. That made him ripe for the Church of Christ.The reason is that there is no "indoctrination" required. When a person believes, wants to change their life and is willing to confess and be baptized, the Lord addes them to the chruch (Acts 2:38, 41, 47).
You can believe this or not, but it is the truth. I now have a good friend who used to be a "baptist". He started really studying the scriptures. He did not go to the scriptures and try to use them to prove what he already believed, rather he wanted to use to scriptures as the source of his belief. He realized there was a difference. OSAS was determined to be a false doctrine. Remember, he is studying on his own without anyone to "help" him misunderstand anything. He talks to his "pastor" and his pastor could not defend OSAS in light of the scriptures. That caused him to study more, wondering what else he believed that was wrong. He realized he needed to be baptized for the remission of his sins (Remember, he is studying on his own). Through his study of God's word, he came to know the truth. We now believe exactly alike in matters concerning salvation and on nearly every subject, we are in complete agreement. We still have discussions as to the meaning of certain passages, but in matters of salvation, complete harmony. We worship together and no one had to "indoctrinate" him. He was baptized into Christ, the Lord added him to the church and he now worships under the oversight of the elders of a local congregation. All of this, by studying God's word.
This is just a word game. So deeds done which in themselves lead to salvation aren't "'earning' salvation", simply because the only reason you are doing them is because God told you.Here is what I believe. I am saved by faith through grace (Eph 2:8). Isn't that simple. I don't work for my salvation. I don't earn ANY part of my salvation. Anyone who claims I do is a LIAR! Maybe a sincere liar, but a liar none the less.
There is no work involved in salvation, because I can't earn it, I don't deserve it, all that good work I could do, is but filthly rags.
There is no question that salvation is by faith. That is made clear in scripture time and time again.
The only source of faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). I can have faith in a lot of things, but God pleasing faith must have the bible as it's source.
Why would anyone confess Jesus as Lord? Well, the bible says to. Matt 10:32, Rom 10:10-13 and other places. Confess is done by faith. If there were no instuctions or examples of anyone confessing, then confession would not be done by faith. The reason I confess is because of the instructions and examples given to me in the bible. If someone believed in Jesus and yet refused to confess him, would we claim they were still "justified by belief only"?
Why would I repent? Because it is a good thing to do and I came up with it on my own? No, but because God's word gives me instructions and examples. (Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, and other places). Therefore I repent through faith, or repentance is an act of faith. If someone believed and confess, yet refused to repent of any of their sins, would any be so bold as to claim they are justifies by belief only?
Why in the world would anyone be baptized in water? Because it earns something? Of course not. Because it makes sense? No. The only reason to be baptized in water is because God said so. We have been given instuctions and examples we have in the bible. Jesus made a statement so simple, you literally have to want to misunderstand it to come away with the wrong meaning, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Do I believe this? Yes, I have faith in this statement. Do I understand it? No, but I accept it by faith. Therefore, it is though faith that I am baptized. Isn't that exactly what Paul said in Gal 3:26-27, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
When we understand that biblical, pleasing faith is not belief only, then the beautiful harmony of the scriptures can be see with such clarity.
Passages such as Eph 2:8-10:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
are in perfect and complete harmony with:
Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
and we can see how, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." - Jn 3:36 (NAS) makes perfect sense.
Again, I do not earn one iota of my salvation, and I am thankful to God that he has given me this wonderful gift that I did not earn or deserve.
A Baptist believes that baptism follows salvation and is symbolic of his salvation--his old life of sin buried, and raised again to a new life in Christ.Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eric B:
I find it hard to believe a CofC would baptize someone into their church so fast wothout making sure he is indoctrinated with CofC teaching).
I believe, that by the discussions with the regular posters of the COC members on this board, my assessment is fairly accurate.Originally posted by mman:
I have never met one member of the church who has ever taught or believed what you portray. It is FALSE and I would appreciate you not making false statements. Just because you don't believe it and you certainly don't understand it, don't try to describe it.
You can shout that all you want; just as a Catholic can shout that he is saved by faith. But both statements are false. Both Catholics and the COC are saved by faith plus baptism which means you are not saved by faith at all, but rather you are saved by works. Your salvation is works based. As long as baptism remains the focus of your salvation you are saved by works. You believe in baptismal regeneration, that it is impossible to be saved without baptism.Here is what I believe. I am saved by faith through grace (Eph 2:8). Isn't that simple. I don't work for my salvation. I don't earn ANY part of my salvation. Anyone who claims I do is a LIAR! Maybe a sincere liar, but a liar none the less.
Jesus came up with baptism not man. So it is a work of God not man.DHK: You don't believe this. You believe that a man is saved by works-- the work of baptism--a human work.
Jesus came up with baptism not man. So it is a work of God not man. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus prayed.Originally posted by Tazman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DHK: You don't believe this. You believe that a man is saved by works-- the work of baptism--a human work.
Let me help you out, before you say "Well, Notice it says 'whoever does not believe will be condemned' they don't mention not being baptized there.Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
I believe, that by the discussions with the regular posters of the COC members on this board, my assessment is fairly accurate.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
I have never met one member of the church who has ever taught or believed what you portray. It is FALSE and I would appreciate you not making false statements. Just because you don't believe it and you certainly don't understand it, don't try to describe it.
You can shout that all you want; just as a Catholic can shout that he is saved by faith. But both statements are false. Both Catholics and the COC are saved by faith plus baptism which means you are not saved by faith at all, but rather you are saved by works. Your salvation is works based. As long as baptism remains the focus of your salvation you are saved by works. You believe in baptismal regeneration, that it is impossible to be saved without baptism.Here is what I believe. I am saved by faith through grace (Eph 2:8). Isn't that simple. I don't work for my salvation. I don't earn ANY part of my salvation. Anyone who claims I do is a LIAR! Maybe a sincere liar, but a liar none the less.
Jesus came up with baptism not man. So it is a work of God not man. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus prayed.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tazman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DHK: You don't believe this. You believe that a man is saved by works-- the work of baptism--a human work.
The only one spitting in Jesus' face are those who You baptism Jesus means nothing to my salvation. Baptism is directly connected to Christ because he made it happen through is death.Originally posted by DHK:
One thing that Jesus doesn't do is come down in the flesh and baptize you. You are baptized by a man. A man does the baptizing and a person receives the baptizing. You get wet when you get baptized. There is no magic in it. Man does it; receives it, etc. It is a work of man, not of God.
Prayer is a work of man.
Witnessing is a work of man.
Baptism is a work of man.
All of these things we, as believers must do. They are works. We are exhorted to do good works. And the first work of obedience for a Christian to do is that of baptism. To say that baptism has anything to do with salvation is heresy. It is akin to spitting in the face of Jesus and saying: "Jesus your blood was not enough, not sufficient to cover my sins; I must help you out by being baptized." That is heresy, if not outright blasphemy.
DHK