Why does faith+works=not saved?

DHK · Mar 23, 2006

Originally posted by mman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mman:
The walls of Jericho fell by faith, not by works.

Faith is belief plus action according to Heb 11.

Faith is not belief alone.

Not according to the dictionary, and not according to the Bible. Why do you use O.T. examples out of context. Israel was a saved nation. They were God's chosen people. Their act of walking around the walls of Jericho can only be likened to an act of obedience in the Christian walk and nothing more. If they had disobeyed they in no way would lose their salvation spiritually only their lives physically. They would have been defeated by the Caannanites. Your examples are taken entirely out of context.[/QUOTE]Why do I use OT examples? I didn't use them, God did. He used them in Heb 11. The last time I checked, Hebrews was in the New Testament.

You're still going to the dictionary to define faith. Why don't you let God do that.

Please use your definition of faith and show how the walls of Jericho fell by faith.
[/QUOTE]Let's get things straight Mann.
The Bible speaks of justification by faith:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--This is in reference to salvation.

The Bible also speaks of the Christian walk of faith:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

--The believer, after he is saved, walks by faith. His entire life is a life of obedience to Christ as he walks in faith.
These two things have nothing to do with each other.

Now choose which one you want to discuss: one topic or the other; not both. If you are going to confuse these two topics together then you are like the ones that Peter admonished:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
DHK

Claudia_T · Mar 23, 2006

Matt,

Hello

Well it goes like this. The CORRECT VIEW of faith and works is that when you have genuine faith the fruit of that faith is shown by your works. The works are PROOF also that you have true faith. Consequently, you ARE saved by faith.

But if you have not works you show that you really dont have the genuine article of faith. This is the CORRECT VIEW of faith and works.

Catholics have been known to do things like say the rosary over and over, or crawl on their hands and knees or all manner of things just as the Pharisees did to try to EARN salvation. You see, someone who does such a thing is just as self centered as the one who holds onto his sins.

Either way is SELFISHNESS, which is the key.

Many Protestants who claim to be Christians hold onto their sins and profess to have faith in God but they prove by their actions that they never had genuine faith at all and that all they really are is SELFISH.

I hope that explains it for you,

Claudia

Claudia_T · Mar 23, 2006

I should explain further. If you love God and love your neighbor you will do good works for that reason. If you are selfish you will do good works to try to merit salvation. Your focus is on SELF and not on God or others.

then there are those who do good works and who rely on that for salvation. they have no true sense of humility and of their utter helplessness and need of God. Even faith is a gift from God and so is repentence. They dont realize how pure and holy God is or the perfection of His law nor their complete unworthiness. Isaiah: "woe is me for I am undone, a sinner in the midst of sinners" was what he said when He took one look at the purity of God.

either way, catholicism misses the boat. and so does a lot of so-called protestantism but they just dont realize it

Jim1999 · Mar 23, 2006

As with Anglicanism, Romanists do not always follow the prescribed way. I know a number of priests I feel benefitted to have them as brothers in Christ. As someone once said, we might be greatly surprised by whom we find on the other side in God's heaven. I know that many so-called evangelicals point the finger automatically if one says they are Anglican.

Cheers,

Jim

Eric B · Mar 23, 2006

quote:
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Originally posted by donnA:
When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.
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But how does that negate the salvation and relationship with Jesus that comes from that faith? That's also the question Mike (D28Guy) still hasn't answered...

Because you have to understand all of this from the perspective of the situation back then. You had legalists coming in, pitching the Law, whom no one had ever been able to keep to God's satisfaction. Hence Peter said: "why tempt God, and put you a yoke upon the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).
The message being taught in the Gospel was that all had sinned, and if judged purely by their obedience to th eLaw, were still lost. Christ died to provide the perfect one-fo all sacrifice to pay for sin. His blood was applied by believing on Him. To go and add our own works to this is a total slap in the face of God, and actually, the very meaning of passages like "trampling under foot the blood of the son of God", which we think means ceasing moral and religious works, but really speaks of "counting the blood an unholy thing", which would put one back under the Law. So just because baptism and other acts of obedience happened to be used to show their faith at the time, doesn't mean we go and contradict these other scriptures, and claim "faith" is really the acts themselves, and that "grace" is just mere "instructions" on how [basically] to save onesself, (with God simply taking the credit for providing the instructions). It is not simply saying "OK, I'm not keeping the Law of Moses", but then substituting some new "Christian Torah" (basically) of Baptism, communion, Sunday, etc., either.

Jim said:

I have faith that the bridge I cross will not collapse, but that faith does not save me in a redeeming sense.

Many words in scripture have dual meanings, including the word used for baptism.

This is another great point that is missed by those who keep trying to use passages like
James 2:19ff. But then if you take this verse this way, it looks like he is not only contradicting, but also directly answering/opposing Paul in Romans 4 and Galatians 3! As always, such "contradictions" are swept under the rug by redefining "faith" (since it is here said to be "dead without works"), or just telling us to "just accept the paradox by faith" by some. But the contexts are completely different! The word "justification", just as we use it today, does not refer exclusively to salvation! Any act we do we can be "justified" in or not justified, and it has nothing to do with our standing before God. Paul is the one dealing with salvation. James is not talking about salvation, for Abraham and Rahab were not SAVED because of their acts! Their acts "justified" them in that they are now looked upon as faithful saints, depsite their sins. "justification" unto salvation could ONLY have been through Christ; not their works in addition to Christ. James is writing to Jewish Christians, who generally still have problems trusting in the letter of the Law, yet are lacking in certain works, which they probably thought unneccesary; not realizing that "having respect of persons" due to class (the sole context of the chapter) is just as much sin, that violates the spirit of the Law. Notice, that he speaks of "keeping the whole Law and offending in one point" (v.10,11). The Campbellists and others here take this to be referring to free-wheeling hedonistic amoral "slackers", but once again, the subject is those trusting in the Law. It wasn't people doing NO works at all who were being corrected; Those Judaizers most certainly WERE doing "works"-- of the LAW, but still falling short! These are people trusting in "the works of the Law", but thinking "faith" alone excuses them from areas in which they fail. That actually becomes close to the error of the legalists here who [when acknowleging that they are not perfect] use the verses to teach that we are saved by "trying harder", and that "faith" covers us when we fail. But what James is really, ultimately saying here is what Paul told the Galatians: "For as many as are under the works of the Law are under a curse: for it is written 'Cursed is every one that continueth not in all the things wich are written in the book of the Law'"(3:10)"...a debtor to do the whole Law! Christ is of no effect unto you whoseover are justified by the Law, for you are fallen from grace!"(5:3,4--another statement applied to those who stop working hard enough). This is what I call "the Great Irony": the legalists end up as the lawless!
All of this is why adding works negates true faith. You are trusting in yourself and your ability to follow "instructions", even if you try to credit God for giving the instructions!

steaver · Mar 23, 2006

claudia...

then there are those who do good works and who rely on that for salvation. they have no true sense of humility and of their utter helplessness and need of God. Even faith is a gift from God and so is repentence. They dont realize how pure and holy God is or the perfection of His law nor their complete unworthiness. Isaiah: "woe is me for I am undone, a sinner in the midst of sinners" was what he said when He took one look at the purity of God.

WOW!

I knew the truth was within you somewhere sister. Now just remember your words here as you go about deliberating Christian doctrines.

I just love this post from you

. It is like someone has turned on the lights and now you see!

" Even faith is a gift from God and so is repentence ."...AMEN! And this leaves out "YOU must keep on believing" and "YOU turn or burn".

" They dont realize how pure and holy God is or the perfection of His law nor their complete unworthiness. Isaiah: "woe is me for I am undone, a sinner in the midst of sinners" was what he said when He took one look at the purity of God ."....AMEN Again! There is Isaiah, a man of God, a prophet of God, and he calls himself a SINNER! Kinda leaves out "YOU stop sinning or God will take away your salvation".

Great post Claudia!

God Bless!

Matt Black · Mar 24, 2006

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
If anyone is truly born again, it is quite natural that the fruits are shown, which is the point of the Epistle James.

Even when we work for the Lord after Salvation, we still work on the faith! Any work without faith is meaningless. If we work by faith, then the result will be good as we read about Jericho.

Works and Fruits are the result of Faith and in that case, they were shown AFTER SALVATION which was achieved by FAITH ALONE ( SOLA FIDE).
Any work or fruits which are not grounded on FAITH are useless.

...and no Catholic theologian would disagree with you there.

Eric, thanks for your post. I think a Catholic theologian would take issue with your statement

All of this is why adding works negates true faith. You are trusting in yourself and your ability to follow "instructions", even if you try to credit God for giving the instructions!

; to Catholics, the 'works' are the work of grace from the Holy Spirit, they follow faith and are not 'man-made'. So the good Catholic (as opposed to the misunderstanding ones, of whom there are unfortunately many) doesn't trust in himself but he does trust in the Holy Spirit 'working' his faith through him.

Matt Black · Mar 24, 2006

Jesus certainly seemed to require some kind of action for an individual to be saved. Quite apart from the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matt 25, you have the story of the Rich Young Ruler, who asked Him the direct question: "What must I do to be saved?" It is significantly in all three of the Synoptic Gospels and, I think, worth quoting in full:-

Matthew 19

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 10

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]"

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Luke 18

18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

What must one do to be saved? Jesus, in his traditionally mysterious style, pinpoints the one thing he knows the rich man will have a hard time with. IMO, he does this to highlight something important--there ARE things we can do to be saved, but we are far from being able to do them. The standards are set remarkably high to illustrate a point. It is a point that is quite clear to the disciples, as they frustratingly call out "Who then can be saved?" Jesus answers poignantly-

It's impossible for man. But nothing is impossible for God.

Claudia_T · Mar 24, 2006

Dear Stever,
I have always believed this way, I think you have misunderstood me all along.

Its not like all of a sudden "I see"... LOL!

What I just posted is Seventh Day Adventist doctrine and the true biblical position on faith and works.

Claudia

Claudia_T · Mar 24, 2006

but Stever,

There is still something in all of this that it looks like you are failing to comprehend.

I will leave that part to sometime later though because for right now you need to see that I agree with you completely on the other part.

Claudia

Claudia_T · Mar 24, 2006

Repentance is a gift from God but we must choose to accept the gift.

To whom is repentance to be preached?
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47.

Who are called to repentance?
"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32.

What is it that awakens the soul to a knowledge of its condition before the law?
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" John 16:8.

What will be the inquiry of those who are thus convicted?
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Acts 2:37.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38.
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31.

What will godly sorrow work?
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." 2 Corinthians 7:10.

Many today who claim to be Christians are in danger of rending their garments, making an outward show of repentance, when their hearts are not softened nor subdued. This is why so many continue to make failures in the Christian life. An outward appearance of sorrow is shown for wrong, but their repentance is not that which needs not to be repented of.

Repentance is one of the first fruits of saving grace.

The most striking feature of this covenant of peace is the exceeding richness of the pardoning mercy expressed to the sinner if he repents and turns from his sin. The Holy Spirit describes the gospel as salvation through the tender mercies of our God. "I will be merciful to their unrighteousness," the Lord declares of those who repent, "and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb. 8:12). Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? No; God cannot dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. . . .

The atonement that has been made for us by Christ is wholly and abundantly satisfactory to the Father. God can be just, and yet the justifier of those who believe.

God requires that we confess our sins, and humble our hearts before Him; but at the same time we should have confidence in Him as a tender Father, who will not forsake those who put their trust in Him. . . . God does not give us up because of our sins. We may make mistakes, and grieve His Spirit; but when we repent, and come to Him with contrite hearts, He will not turn us away. There are hindrances to be removed. Wrong feelings have been cherished, and there have been pride, self-sufficiency, impatience, and murmurings. All these separate us from God. Sins must be confessed; there must be a deeper work of grace in the heart. . . .

We must learn in the school of Christ. Nothing but His righteousness can entitle us to one of the blessings of the covenant of grace. . . . We look to self, as though we had power to save ourselves; but Jesus died for us because we are helpless to do this. In Him is our hope, our justification, our righteousness. . . .

by contrast, The Catholic View:

As Tetzel entered a town, a messenger went before him, announcing: "The grace of God and of the holy father is at your gates."--D'Aubigne, b. 3, ch. 1. And the people welcomed the blasphemous pretender as if he were God Himself come down from heaven to them. The infamous traffic was set up in the church, and Tetzel, ascending the pulpit, extolled the indulgences as the most precious gift of God. He declared that by virtue of his certificates of pardon all the sins which the purchaser should afterward desire to commit would be forgiven him, and that "not even repentance is necessary."-- Ibid., b. 3, ch. 1. More than this, he assured his hearers that the indulgences had power to save not only the living but the dead; that the very moment the money should clink against the bottom of his chest, the soul in whose behalf it had been paid would escape from purgatory and make its way to heaven. (See K. R. Hagenbach, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, p. 96.)

Claudia_T · Mar 24, 2006

But the Roman Catholicism teaches two errors, one is that one can be saved by his own merit the other is that works dont matter, repentance doesnt matter, if you do certain "sacraments". (see the quotation about Tetzel and "Indulgences" in my post above)

There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him.

Tazman · Mar 24, 2006

Posted by Donna:
Not only are you putting words into my mouth but God's too it seems.
Works are a part of our lives after salvation, they are not part of salvation.
Eliyiah said:

I am not putting anything in Gods mouth - what I have shared has NEVER left Gods mouth. It has always been there. Jesus has been saying the same thing that I shared with you earlier. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but no one has done that yet.

Answer these questions:

1. Did Jesus ever call baptism "An outward sign of an inward grace" and/or "Works"? Yes or No.

2. Did Jesus ever say the Baptism/Repentance doesn't save you?

3. How does Jesus Define Faith for those who chose to make him Lord?

4. Is obeying God "works"?

Remeber the Thief on the cross was still under the old testament covenant of God Grace, so he could not partake in the "New Covenant" baptism. But another question for you:
Matthew 9: States that Jesus has the authority to FORGIVE sins on earth. It is obvious that due to people:

Hearing the TRUTH
Believing the Truth (faith)
Obeying the Truth (faith/repentance)
Confessing Jesus
Were Forgiven. And able to be forgiven.

So the question is: Since Jesus could forgive Just by accepting faith from people, why would he need to day on the Cross?

BobRyan · Mar 24, 2006

Originally posted by Matt Black:
A question which puzzles me: why is it that some here assert that because Catholics believe that salvation is through faith and works (whatever those terms mean ) that that means they are not saved. Surely if they have saving faith, then that is enough? It matters not if they also believe in works; that does not negate or detract from that saving faith, otherwise that faith is not sufficient for salvation.

So, which is it: is faith alone sufficient for salvation - in which case then who cares from a soteriological POV whether some folks who have that faith also believe that has to be worked at; or does believing that some kind of works are necessary in addition to having that faith somehow fatally negate that faith, in which case faith is insufficient for salvation?

Faith is sufficient for salvation. Even faith that is expressed by someone who is deceived into thinking that the RCC is infallible or that praying the dead helps the living or that performing the stations of the cross will get someone out of purgatory or that purgatory exists in the first place.

Being bound by "error" does not stop faith from clinging to the truth that remains and experiencing the new birth.

This is seen clearly in Romans 2 where even those with no scripture at all are found to experience the work of the Holy Spirit placing the law upon the heart - the New Covenant.

The question is not "can't God save them anyway" the question is "how much more difficult is it to experience that faith" when error is distorting your view of God?

In Christ,

Bob

Matt Black · Mar 24, 2006

Thanks Bob; that was the point I was trying to make. So a Catholic with faith (but who also believes in doing good works to maintain that faith) is as saved as a Baptist who also has faith (but who doesn't believe in the additional necessity of good works).

That's all I was getting at in the OP.

Eric B · Mar 24, 2006

Jesus certainly seemed to require some kind of action for an individual to be saved. Quite apart from the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matt 25, you have the story of the Rich Young Ruler, who asked Him the direct question: "What must I do to be saved?" It is significantly in all three of the Synoptic Gospels and, I think, worth quoting in full:-

-----------------

What must one do to be saved? Jesus, in his traditionally mysterious style, pinpoints the one thing he knows the rich man will have a hard time with. IMO, he does this to highlight something important--there ARE things we can do to be saved, but we are far from being able to do them. The standards are set remarkably high to illustrate a point. It is a point that is quite clear to the disciples, as they frustratingly call out "Who then can be saved?" Jesus answers poignantly-

It's impossible for man. But nothing is impossible for God.

No, No, NO!
You just missed the point. Jesus wasn't actually telling him that giving all that he had was the one thing he lacked in order to be saved! For one, how many of us do that, and how many Jews keep all the commandments the ruler kept, plus happened to give up all they had also? Would they have been saved by their works? No, there would always be something else; they never even thought of. THAT was the point.
What Jesus was showing was that no matter how much you think you are keeping the commandments, you always end up lacking something; so if you are trusting in keeping the commandments you will not be saves that way.

You above made it sound like God looks at us, and then decides He wants to "set the standard too high for us" to "teach us something", and that something seems to be if we try hard enough, it may not earn salvation, but then "with God it is possible". No; His standards are what they are, and it is man who fell to a point where we cannot reach them. God then reaches down and provides payment for sin, not mere instructions on how to literally reach the standards. Acts of obedience are then done in love to Hom, not to add merit towards our salvation.

to Catholics, the 'works' are the work of grace from the Holy Spirit, they follow faith and are not 'man-made'. So the good Catholic (as opposed to the misunderstanding ones, of whom there are unfortunately many) doesn't trust in himself but he does trust in the Holy Spirit 'working' his faith through him.

But then these "misunderstanding" Catholics must not be doing something if they don't have these "works of grace", and if that's true, then is it a work of grace? Or is it some form of preterition (God witholds His grace from them but still holds them responsible)?
So when you are baptized, or eat this substance you claim is really Christ's flesh, is it God choosing to do it? Or is the grace once again, just the "instructions" of what to do?
Still, in as much as you place salvation on the person doing something, they still trust in their own ability to follow the instructions, or receive the grace, or whatever you call it.

Jim1999 · Mar 24, 2006

Jesus knew to whom He was speaking. The rich man was wrapped up in something all important to him. It was his wealth. Jesus knew the only way to reach him was to demand that he give all he had before he could reach salvation. Jesus did not make the giving up of wealth the means to salvation, but rather the sacrifice that he must make before he can realize saving grace, which is the gift of God alone.

Certainly we must give up something in the process and it is self. Until we surrender self, humanly speaking, understanding grace and subsequent faith is impossible.

I reiterate, the giving up is NOT the redeeming factor, it is the human path of surrender.....I cannot be lost until I admit I am lost. The fact I am lost, but refuse to admit it, does not mean I am not lost. In admitting I am lost, I seek assistance....How do I get to so and so's house from here?

I remember in one church I pastored in Quebec, a rather wealthy lumberman never attended church. His wife and daughter were quite regular. I came across this man in a local shop when he told me there were too many hypcrites in the church. I could have gone into great detail, explained the gospel and other pleasantries. My only response was, "There is always room for one more." WIth that I said cheerio and went my way. On Sunday I was shocked to see him sitting with wife and daughter in their regular pew. My point is, it took a secular challenge to reach this secular man. A few months later he bowed to the Lord in redeeming grace.

I think this is what Jesus was saying in this passage.

Cheers,

Jim

steaver · Mar 25, 2006

claudia...

but Stever,

There is still something in all of this that it looks like you are failing to comprehend.

Is it I that fail to comprehend? I agree with Isaiah, do you agree with Isaiah Claudia? Are you " a sinner in the midst of sinners "?

Isaiah: "woe is me for I am undone, a sinner in the midst of sinners"

I can say this everyday. Can you?

How many sins before God cuts me off?

How many days without fruit before God cuts me off?

How many days without good works before God cuts me off?

How many days without faith before God cuts me off?

I don't ask so I can see how much I can get away with. I ask because I would fear losing my salvation and i know I have many days, weeks, and months of failures in these areas.

Let me guess..."I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know...but rest assured, merciful God will give His children the axe!"

One should know what they are preaching.

God Bless!

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2006

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Thanks Bob; that was the point I was trying to make. So a Catholic with faith (but who also believes in doing good works to maintain that faith) is as saved as a Baptist who also has faith (but who doesn't believe in the additional necessity of good works).

That's all I was getting at in the OP.

And of course I agree with that as well.

Let's look at the benefit of that acceptance of Bible teaching. It means that in John 12:32 God really IS "DRAWING ALL Mankind" to Himself not just the ones with the "exact same story" as you and I.

It means that in John 16 God really IS "CONVICTING THE WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment - not just that small segment that have the completed story as you and I have.

It means that in Romans 2 God really IS able to save the pagan with NO BIBLE at ALL as they respond to the Holy Spirit and the Spirit writes the Law of God on their heart - via the NEW Covenant!

And it solves the problem of all those SAVED JEWS all over the world PRECROSS (and the many millions that died in all ages prior to the cross) being SAVED ANYWAY after the cross rather than all becoming instantly "lost again".

The truth that you are pointing to - is of value in a great many contexts!

That is why in Romans 10 we see the TRUTH being proclaimed THROUGH NATURE as the means for extending the Gospel through all the earth!!

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2006

Originally posted by steaver:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />claudia...

but Stever,

There is still something in all of this that it looks like you are failing to comprehend.

Is it I that fail to comprehend? I agree with Isaiah, do you agree with Isaiah Claudia? Are you " a sinner in the midst of sinners "?

Isaiah: "woe is me for I am undone, a sinner in the midst of sinners"

I can say this everyday. Can you?

How many sins before God cuts me off?

How many days without fruit before God cuts me off?

How many days without good works before God cuts me off?
[/QUOTE]Read Romans 2 - read Matt 18 about "Forgiveness REVOKED".

Rather than simply charging back against God saying "Oh yeah God - well just how far can I go before forgiveness is revoked for me the way it was in your example given by Christ to all Christians in Matt 18 saying "SO SHALL My Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU" '

Your argument is of the form of another "with cherries on top" escape from the text.

In Christ,

Bob

Why does faith+works=not saved?

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