Originally posted by Eric B:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So, according to this verse, what is required for salvation?
What is required for condemnation?
Nothing is
required for condemnation, as if we were starting out in some neutral position. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly. And what did Jesus say? He that believeth not shall be condemned. Therefore baptism, is of necessity, also excluded.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The power is in the blood, not the water. If it were in the water, then everyone who went swimming would have the forgiveness of sins. No, there is no merit in being baptized in water. God does not owe us for obeying that command. It sounds foolish to many. It confounds many. You can't make the connection logically.
Apparently the blood has no power without the water, so the power still must be in the water. If God promised us salvation for being baptized in water, then if we do it, God does "owe" us-- if for no reason than He made the promise. But God has instead determined that it will not be by some physical thing we do that we will be saved, "lest any man should boast".</font>[/QUOTE]No, you still don't understand. The power is in the blood. The water is how we come in contact with the blood.
Your twisted logic would put the power in a brass snake. There is no virtue in a brass snake, yet when the people who had been injected with the deadly poison, they would live when they looked upon it. They could stay in their tent all day and believe, yet until they got up and went to the center of the camp and looked at the snake, they could not expect to receive healing.
Now, was the power in the brass snake or in God? Is this really that hard for you to see or are you that desperate to minimize the importance of baptism.
By your logic, God would owe them a cure. Well, if there were virtue in looking at a brass snake, then let's destroy all anti-venom and replace it with brass snakes. God would owe it to everyone who performed the same actions.
The same could be said for the waters of the Jordan River. God used it to cure leprosy. Now do you really think that the power was in the water or in God? Did Naaman's obedience earn him a cure for leprosy? If you think so, then everyone who will dip in the Jordan river 7 times can be cured of leprosy, because God would owe it to them.
Naaman was told to wash and be clean, so are we. Naaman had a different idea of how God would cleanse him. He had it in his mind how he thought God ought to do it. When God chose something foolish in the mind of Naaman, he got angry. Later, he washed and was cleansed. To minimize the power of God and wrongfully place the power in the water is a grave mistake.
You do err, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.
Why is it beyond your ability to understand that the power is in God?
When Peter told them in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, was he mistaken to give them that instruction?
Eph 5:25-26 "...just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word"
Accept it for what is says. You don't have to figure it out or understand it.
Col 2:12, "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
God is the one working. I am buried with Him (who? With Christ) and raised through faith in the working of God. God raised Jesus from the grave, He can also raise me as a new man from the watery grave of baptism. I don't have to know what work God does to accomplish this and more than I have to understand how he raised Jesus from the dead. But, I know that God has the power to raise Jesus from the dead and has the power to raise me with Him (Christ) from the watery grave, as a new man (See also Rom 6:3-17)
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> No, it done by faith, because God said to do it.
Then once again, those trying to be justified by keeping the Law were OK, then, because they were doing it "in faith" because God commanded them to. But then Paul and the book of Hebrews says they did NOT do it in "faith", so your definition of "faith" as merely doing something God commanded is wrong. Faith is connected to obedience, but there must be more to it than what you are saying. </font>[/QUOTE]Again, your attempt is unsuccessful. Your example and logic is flawed. There is no way that someone can keep the old law when the new law was in effect, "by faith", because the new law abolished the old law. When someone does something in sincerity does not equate them to doing it "by faith".
Paul/Saul was persecuting christians. He was living as though there were no new law. The things he was doing were right and required under the old law. However, he was not doing them by faith, but he was doing it in sincerity (Act 23:1).
Later Paul writes, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." - Gal 3:24-25
Faith had come but he was still living as though under the law, therefore, his actions were not "by faith".
In the next verses he states, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:27-29
Who are the heirs? Those who are Christ's.
How do we belong to Christ? We are baptized into Christ and put on Christ.
How is this done? Through faith.