Why does God let us sin?

[Dave G]

@Humble Disciple :

Why does God let us sin?
For His own purposes.

Some He allows to sin so that He can provide a Saviour for them and to show His grace and kindness to them.

The rest He allows to sin, so that they will be judged in perfect holiness and righteousness for the deeds that they so willfully committed against Him... in their uncaring rejection of His goodness that leads them to the repentance that He commands.

 

[Dave G]

Now we know that Adam sinned but that was because he had a free will so could make that choice.

I agree.

But since we lost the ability to make choices, according to one theological view, then would it not be that God makes the man sin?

I know of no theological view that states this.

That isn't to say that there isn't one, it's just that I've never heard of anyone saying that man was turned into a robot by the fall of Adam and Eve.
But if God actually took away a person's ability to choose anything other than sin, then I would tend to agree with you.
The problem is, He doesn't and He never did.

My question to you is, what does Romans 1:18-32 and Ephesians 4:17-19 describe...

Mankind losing the ability to make autonomous choices,
or
God giving us over to that which we have come to love ( sin ) and us darkening our own hearts and minds against Him...
Even though all of us are without excuse, know full well Who He is and:
" ...who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:32)?

I see the latter, which leads me to my next question:

How can God be the author of sin if He simply allowed us to have what we wanted ( our free will choice ), gave us over to the consequences of it and its affects on our spiritual relationship with Him, and only graciously invades the darkened hearts and minds ( with the light of His truth ) of people that He desires to have mercy on?

Answer:
He can't.

I also think you may be losing track of this:
According to His word in James 1:12-15, the Lord does not tempt us to sin, as we are led away into it of our own lusts and enticed;
In other words, we do a fine job of giving into sin all on our own.

God is neither the author of sin, nor does He condone it...
But He can and does use our love of sin and our desire to sin ( despite His commandments to repent and forsake those sins ) against us.


Believe His word when He tells us that He is willing to show wrath and to make His power known,
and that He has appointed a day when He will judge all of us in righteousness by His Son.

 

[Dave G]

I would like to see a logical answer for this question,"If God controls all things that happen then how can a man do anything outside of what God has decided for that man to do?"

He can't.
Now, if you're so inclined, I'd like to see a reasonable answer to this question:

"If God can either choose to allow something passively, or simply step in and actively stop it in a moment, then how can He be held responsible for being King over his creation and having the final say-so on anything that He wishes ...by sinful and rebellious men who have no right to question Him or His purposes?"

 

[Humble Disciple]

While teachers of Lordship salvation like John MacArthur claim to to be Calvinists, their teaching might be closer to Wesleyan perfectionism than traditional Calvinism. Unlike our Wesleyan brothers and sisters, Calvinists don’t believe that sinless perfection is possible in this lifetime.

 

[Silverhair]

He can't.
Now, if you're so inclined, I'd like to see a reasonable answer to this question:

"If God can either choose to allow something passively, or simply step in and actively stop it in a moment, then how can He be held responsible for being King over his creation and having the final say-so on anything that He wishes ...by sinful and rebellious men who have no right to question Him or His purposes?"

Strange how you on one hand say god controls all things man does then say He lets man sin but the reality is that man could not sin if God did not control His ability to do the sin. So any way you cut it it is still God that controls the sin under your view of God having your type of sovereign rule.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree.

I know of no theological view that states this.

That isn't to say that there isn't one, it's just that I've never heard of anyone saying that man was turned into a robot by the fall of Adam and Eve.
But if God actually took away a person's ability to choose anything other than sin, then I would tend to agree with you.
The problem is, He doesn't and He never did.

My question to you is, what does Romans 1:18-32 and Ephesians 4:17-19 describe...

Mankind losing the ability to make autonomous choices,
or
God giving us over to that which we have come to love ( sin ) and us darkening our own hearts and minds against Him...
Even though all of us are without excuse, know full well Who He is and:
" ...who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:32)?

I see the latter, which leads me to my next question:

How can God be the author of sin if He simply allowed us to have what we wanted ( our free will choice ), gave us over to the consequences of it and its affects on our spiritual relationship with Him, and only graciously invades the darkened hearts and minds ( with the light of His truth ) of people that He desires to have mercy on?

Answer:
He can't.

I also think you may be losing track of this:
According to His word in James 1:12-15, the Lord does not tempt us to sin, as we are led away into it of our own lusts and enticed;
In other words, we do a fine job of giving into sin all on our own.

God is neither the author of sin, nor does He condone it...
But He can and does use our love of sin and our desire to sin ( despite His commandments to repent and forsake those sins ) against us.


Believe His word when He tells us that He is willing to show wrath and to make His power known,
and that He has appointed a day when He will judge all of us in righteousness by His Son.

You do realize that what you are showing in those verses is free will. And I agree man has a free will. Your problem is that under Calvinism man can not have a free will because God has to control all things.

And I have yet to have anyone give me a logical answer as to how God can have absolute control of all things that happen and yet man can defy God and do his own thing.

How I see it is you want man to have the ability to sin but not have the ability to chose to trust in Christ Jesus.

We can see in Rom 10:8-15 that those that hear the gospel message and believe that message will be saved. I see that as free will, they made a choice. That is what you see in scripture we are saved through faith Rom 3:25; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:14; Eph 2:8; Eph 3:12 what I do not find is we are saved unto faith.

 

[Dave G]

You do realize that what you are showing in those verses is free will.

"Free" as in totally uninfluenced ( completely neutral ), or "free" as in "free to make choices based on what motivates us" ( approaching God with an already-inherent bias )?

To me, there is a vast difference between freedom from sin and its ways, and slavery to sin and its ways.

Your problem is that under Calvinism man can not have a free will because God has to control all things.

I'm not contending for a systematic theology known by many as "Calvinism"...
I'm contending for the word of God and what it actually says on the page.

The Bible very plainly states, in all the details, that God does indeed have the power to influence anything that He desires.
For example, one only has to read the Psalms, in their entirety, to see this.

And I have yet to have anyone give me a logical answer as to how God can have absolute control of all things that happen and yet man can defy God and do his own thing.

Because both are true insofar as God allowing what, to us, is men carrying out our will.

If He did not permit us to act out our own desires, nothing would happen that we wanted.
Also, as believers in Christ, "logic" should have no attraction for us.

Us relying on what His word says should be enough to convince us ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).

 

[Dave G]

How I see it is you want man to have the ability to sin but not have the ability to chose to trust in Christ Jesus.

My own personal desire is to see no one go to the Lake of Fire;
In fact, I would love to see everyone choose to trust Christ.

Yet, according to God's own words, that is not His will.
See Romans 9.

His elect, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, are the only ones who will choose, because the Lord has decided to leave the rest in their sins and to judge them for them.

We can see in Rom 10:8-15 that those that hear the gospel message and believe that message will be saved.

Amen.
Yet, in the chapters leading up to Romans 10, Paul develops why someone trusts Christ during the preaching of God's word, does he not?

I see that as free will, they made a choice.

I agree...they made a choice.
A choice that I see Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 3 telling us was contrary to the choices that all men, in our natural state, will make.

That is what you see in scripture we are saved through faith Rom 3:25; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:14; Eph 2:8; Eph 3:12 what I do not find is we are saved unto faith.

Again I agree.
We are saved through faith...but not as a consequence of it.

Faith is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

 

[Dave G]

Strange how you on one hand say god controls all things man does then say He lets man sin but the reality is that man could not sin if God did not control His ability to do the sin. So any way you cut it it is still God that controls the sin under your view of God having your type of sovereign rule.

"My type of sovereign rule"?
I'm simply reading the Scriptures and describing what I see in the words, sir.

If you wish to categorize me as a "Calvinist", then you are free to do so...
but "my type" of sovereign rule is exactly what I see God's word teaching when I take into account everything that His word has to say on the matter.

See Daniel 4:35 and many others that speak to His ruling and influencing things apart from our desires or our will as men.



That said, I take my leave of this thread and wish you well.
May God bless you greatly.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually what Calvin teaches is quite shocking. According to calvin God "implants the living root of faith" so it is not really they believe but God believes for them.
Calvin states this clearly "We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use" So the reprobate never has faith implanted by God so never has a chance to be saved and this is Gods doing.

"Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent" Calvin Institutes Bk 3 Chp 2 Pt A Sec 11

So what we see here is, according to Calvin, God implants faith in some but not all but those that do not have faith will be condemned for not having it. Furthermore since God implants this faith and even the reprobate think they are saved, at least for a time anyway. So those that believe may at any time have that faith removed, it proves evanescent {Vanishing; subject to vanishing; fleeting; passing away; liable to dissipation Webster} Now everyone that follows the calvinist view has to wonder, am I one of the ones that will have my faith vanish, is my faith evanescent? Try as they might they can never be sure. That is the reality of Calvinism.

I follow Jesus, not Calvin, and he promised His own will follow Him, and that he gives them eternal life!

 

[Silverhair]

"Free" as in totally uninfluenced ( completely neutral ), or "free" as in "free to make choices based on what motivates us" ( approaching God with an already-inherent bias )?

To me, there is a vast difference between freedom from sin and its ways, and slavery to sin and its ways.

I'm not contending for a systematic theology known by many as "Calvinism"...
I'm contending for the word of God and what it actually says on the page.

The Bible very plainly states, in all the details, that God does indeed have the power to influence anything that He desires.
For example, one only has to read the Psalms, in their entirety, to see this.

Because both are true insofar as God allowing what, to us, is men carrying out our will.

If He did not permit us to act out our own desires, nothing would happen that we wanted.
Also, as believers in Christ, "logic" should have no attraction for us.

Us relying on what His word says should be enough to convince us ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).

Free as in:

Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.



Man will never be free from sin until we are in heaven up to that time we will be under the influence of sin. But you did notice that Christ Jesus said that He can set us free. {Joh 8:36} That freedom from the influence of sin comes through faith in Him.



Like you I also contend for what is on the pages of the bible. Although it does appear that we see some of the text through different eyes. I think the main difference is in how we see Gods' sovereignty. Gods' sovereignty, for me, sees God as in control but not controlling and, not to put words in your mouth, you see God as controlling all that happens.



I am in total agreement God does influence what man does, but there is a great difference between influence and control. If God is only allowing man to do such things as they do then is that not the same as saying that God controls all that men do even though they think they are doing it on their own?



Where do our desires come from? Do they come from us? When God controls all things that happen then He has to control all things we desire. Also as believers in Christ Jesus we have to trust in Logic as without it we could not evaluate anything including the truth of scripture.



You refer to Pro 3:5-6 I would add verse 7 as well. So right here we see a clear text that shows man has a free will. We have to Trust in Him, we have to Acknowledge Him, and we have to Fear Him. All of these things are what we have to do. According to the text none of these things are what God does for us.



Pro_3:8 shows the outcome of the prior verses. If a person trusts in the LORD and fears him (Pro_3:5-7), God will bless him (Pro_3:8).

 

[Silverhair]

I follow Jesus, not Calvin, and he promised His own will follow Him, and that he gives them eternal life!

I am glad to hear that. I also trust in Christ Jesus.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am glad to hear that. I also trust in Christ Jesus.

No Calvinist that I know or have read has Calvin as Lord, that is Jesus!

 

[Van]

Once again a Calvinist has posted complete nonsense, without any regard for scriptural truth.
Why does our sovereign God, who causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, allow his creation, humanity, to choose to seek God and trust in Christ, or go their own way? What does scripture actually say. I expect not a single Calvinist cannot even reference the verse that answers that question. Repeat, not one...

 

[MB]

"Free" as in totally uninfluenced ( completely neutral ), or "free" as in "free to make choices based on what motivates us" ( approaching God with an already-inherent bias )?

To me, there is a vast difference between freedom from sin and its ways, and slavery to sin and its ways.

I'm not contending for a systematic theology known by many as "Calvinism"...
I'm contending for the word of God and what it actually says on the page.

The Bible very plainly states, in all the details, that God does indeed have the power to influence anything that He desires.
For example, one only has to read the Psalms, in their entirety, to see this.

Because both are true insofar as God allowing what, to us, is men carrying out our will.

If He did not permit us to act out our own desires, nothing would happen that we wanted.
Also, as believers in Christ, "logic" should have no attraction for us.

Us relying on what His word says should be enough to convince us ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).

My only bias is the gospel in why Christ died for all man kind. Christ loves us all. We are His creation. Why shouldn't He loves us enough ti give us a choice to choose Him too?.
MB

 

[Scott Downey]

What Calvinism teaches is that if God's elect were to backslide, the Holy Spirit will intervene in their lives to restore them to saving faith. If the backslidden are never restored to faith, then they were never truly saved in the first place. Wesleyan Arminians, on the other hand, believe that God's elect can irrevocably fall away.

God gets the glory then, not us. His salvation of us is a great salvation, something that with men would be impossible.

As far as sin, we dont sin in our new creation spirit which is perfect in Christ, we sin in our soul life, the body, the flesh.
The body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness...We have the righteousness of Christ , the new man, not the old man.
God still holds us accountable for the deeds done in the body, regarding eternal rewards, but our spirits He has saved and perfected. There is a certain dichotomy between flesh and spirit in every man.

Our old bodies are never saved and preserved, we get a new body at the resurrection like his glorious body, just as we also have gotten a new spirit right now.

 

[1689Dave]

What few understand is that Christ's imputed righteousness and shed blood saves us. Our wood, hay, and stubble righteousness cannot save us. But it is our attempt to show our love for God. But contrary to the works salvation crew, even if all we do will never pass the test of fire, it is Christ's imputed righteousness that saves us. But if you can muster any righteous, it yields a greater reward in glory.

 

[1689Dave]

Actually what Calvin teaches is quite shocking. According to calvin God "implants the living root of faith" so it is not really they believe but God believes for them.
Calvin states this clearly "We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use" So the reprobate never has faith implanted by God so never has a chance to be saved and this is Gods doing.

"Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent" Calvin Institutes Bk 3 Chp 2 Pt A Sec 11

So what we see here is, according to Calvin, God implants faith in some but not all but those that do not have faith will be condemned for not having it. Furthermore since God implants this faith and even the reprobate think they are saved, at least for a time anyway. So those that believe may at any time have that faith removed, it proves evanescent {Vanishing; subject to vanishing; fleeting; passing away; liable to dissipation Webster} Now everyone that follows the calvinist view has to wonder, am I one of the ones that will have my faith vanish, is my faith evanescent? Try as they might they can never be sure. That is the reality of Calvinism.

If you understand the depths of depravity, we cannot believe in the true God unless first born again from where faith proceeds.

 

[MB]

What few understand is that Christ's imputed righteousness and shed blood saves us. Our wood, hay, and stubble righteousness cannot save us. But it is our attempt to show our love for God. But contrary to the works salvation crew, even if all we do will never pass the test of fire, it is Christ's imputed righteousness that saves us. But if you can muster any righteous, it yields a greater reward in glory.

Actually we are told to put on the righteousness of Christ. Of course you have a mountain of knowledge but your knowledge isn't worth spit. All you Calvinist know is insults nothing but insults. You all claim to study scripture and to know it all but in reality the only things I've witnessed from any of you is how to insult your fellow man. Of course you have no works Dave we can all see that. The works we do see coming fromyou is nothing but a feeble attempt to mislead others. Doesn't that just stick in your craw.
MB

 

[MB]

Once again a Calvinist has posted complete nonsense, without any regard for scriptural truth.
Why does our sovereign God, who causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, allow his creation, humanity, to choose to seek God and trust in Christ, or go their own way? What does scripture actually say. I expect not a single Calvinist cannot even reference the verse that answers that question. Repeat, not one...

It wasn't anything surprising was it?
MB