Featured Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

Do you suggest that because men believe something ...it is Biblical?

What does Scripture say?

Thankfully every Baptist fellowship I have ever been a part of have rejected sooul sleep as well as annihilation.

And read the 95 Theses. You'll see that Luther at that time embraced Purgatory.

I can see why people fall into the error of soul sleep, but annihilation? C'mon, lol. Why would someone embrace doctrine the Lord rebukes Sadducees for?


God bless.

 

One question: can anyone help Tyndale out in his confusion as to why being made like Christ, glorified...is better than being an Angel?

And how the spirit in Heaven is not a glorified Saint?


God bless.

 

First of all there is no doctrine held by the Seventh-day Adventist church - listed in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs where the argument from us is "this is a doctrine that we get from Ellen White's visions not the Bible".

Are you looking for such a doctrine?

We make no such claim about any of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

My point in my prior post was related to one of the tests of a prophet as listed in the Bible. Isaiah 8:20 "To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light".

So then in general it means "sola scriptura" if a prophet contradicts the Bible in a message claimed to have come from God - then it is not a true prophet since God cannot be in doctrinal error.


in Christ,

Bob

 

You appear to be using the definition that is of the form "DHK does not believe it - so it must be heresy".

I prefer the actual Bible -- and in this case that would be Daniel 7 and Romans 2.

As pointed out in my prior post. "I think this thread #1 makes the Bible case you are avoiding."

That thread at that link starts with this point --

in Christ,

Bob

 

In that "investigative Judgment" focused thread we find this

No offense taken - all are free to differ with me. But I make my case on the texts provided (and Romans 2 coming up) - so if you claim is that Ellen White wrote those texts upon which I posting/relying/making my case -- then I suppose you could argue it as you do. But if you accept the Bible as not written by Ellen White - then you have a challenge to show that only Ellen White would know to quote Daniel 7 and point to the details I have pointed out above.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Brother, was Jesus teaching 'works salvation' when He said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15​

He cited from the Ten Commandments here:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:6​

Or here:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:19

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. - Matthew 19:17​

Was John the Apostle, teaching 'works salvation':

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. - 1 John 2:3

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. - 1 John 3:22

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. - 1 John 5:2

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. - 1 John 5:3

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 12:17

Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:12

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. - Revelation 22:14​

Or Paul?

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. - 1 Corinthians 7:19​

Or Peter, speaking of that one Holy Commandment of the Ten Commandments, Exodus 20:8-11 [the only one with the words Holy and Hallowed, in it]:

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. - 2 Peter 2:21​

Of course they were not teaching works salvation. They were teaching repentance unto God, in obeying Him through the Spirit, even by/in faith, even the "faith of Jesus".

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. - Romans 8:13

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. - Galatians 5:5

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: - 1 Peter 1:22​

How did the Bible define Truth and Righteousness again? Here it is - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2209746&postcount=22

 

The Romans 2 addition - that I promised

[FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]

 

Depends on what you mean by "annihilation" -

Do you mean this statement about the 2nd death? ....

"fear Him who can destroy Both body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28

Do you mean this statement about the 2nd death? ...

"the SOUL that sin - it shall DIE" Ezek 18:4

 

Perhaps they may look at:

For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living? - Psalm 56:13

What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. - Psalm 89:48

Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. - James 5:20​

Or a great deal more, to which any passage may be openly reviewed and studied, for I love Bible Study!!!:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

 

That interpretation was unknown prior to Ellen White, and it seems that since Ellen White, Adventists are the only ones to hold it. A doctrine held exclusively by one person or group makes that doctrine highly suspect, to me.

And, Bob, I always appreciate the manner and tone in which you post. I can see the fruit of the Spirit in you.

 

You left a crucial verse before concluding that man shall be judged according to the Law; verse 12

( For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Paul is demonstrating the EQUALITY of the Jew no Gentile as far as responsibility and judgement is concerned. Ask yourself, who are those who have 'sinned without the law'? Are these not Gentiles who have no express revealed code as a standard of guilt? Even without the Law, there is sin no there is doom. But Jews would be judged on the basis of the revealed Law.

Verse 13 onwards amplifies this point.
These verses don't prove that men will be judged according to the Law. Only if you keep ALL Laws would you be justified. Paul was VERY clear on this in Galatians 3:12 a paraphrase of Leviticus 18:5

Galatians 3:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Once again, Romans 2 is no evidence of a future Judgement based on the Law, it merely states the conditions for Legal Justification, conditions which are IMPOSSIBLE to meet as Paul readily admits elsewhere.

Romans 3:20 (KJV)
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

Never mind Bob, lol.

I can't clarify any more than I did. You didn't actually think I was asking you to list SDA error, from your perspective did you?


God bless.

 

I would just like to add thanks for not hammering me for the heresy of being by lagoonal, lol.

That should have read pretribulational, lol.

Maybe that would help the question.






God bless.

 

And how does God reveal truth?

Progressively.

When the Law set the standard...nobody had the revealed Gospel of Christ.

Show me identical truths concerning faith in Christ given to Israel as those eternal truths revealed to Post Pentecost believers.

While the mysteries of the Kingdom we're revealed, the Mystery of the Gospel had not been.

That is why the disciples did not abide in Him, but were scattered, abandoning Him, and even attempted to keep Christ from the Cross altogether.

Men are not saved by keeping the Law, they are saved so they can keep the Law.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+36:27&version=KJV


God bless.

 

Since I believe the Bible, have studied it a number of years, I have no trouble examining those doctrines, and in the light of the Bible declare them to be heresy. They are not biblical doctrines and cannot be proven through scriptures without a great deal of the wresting of scriptures.

 

No. He was teaching his disciples. The great demonstration of our love for Christ is our obedience to him. He in no way taught that if they disobeyed in any way would lose their salvation. That is not taught there. In fact it contradicts what he said four chapters earlier in John 10:27-30.

What do the Ten Commandments have to do with eternal security?
Nothing. The law shows us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. No one can keep the law or is saved through the law.

It does not say shall be omitted from heaven.

Read the complete story. He was teaching the rich young ruler that he could not keep the whole law. The young man had lied. He went away sorrowful. He coveted his riches more than desiring Christ. He did not keep the law.

First it is a general statement of obedience.
Second it is speaking of the commandments of Christ to his disciples which do not include the Ten Commandments. He is not speaking of OT law. He is speaking of the Christian life.

Same book; same principles. "do those things that are pleasing in his sight. It has nothing to do with the OT law. Neither does it say one will lose their salvation.

Same book; same principle.
This is how we know--by keeping the principles of Christianity that Christ has taught. It does not say we will lose our salvation.

Same book; same principle. It does not say we will lose our salvation.
It is speaking of the love of God. The same as John 14--the great demonstration of our love for Christ is shown in our obedience to him.

non sequitor.

There is no sense of sinless perfection here--an impossibility for any Christian. It is a general statement of obedience. The Christian cannot lose his salvation.

What are you trying to prove?
None of your verses prove anything except a perverted interpretation by yourself.

Perhaps you should consider this:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--If you say you do keep His commands all the time, then:

1. You have deceived yourself.
2. The truth is not in you.
3. You claim that you have never sinned.
4. You have made Christ a liar.
5. And His word is not in you.

You may want to reconsider your position.

 

To that point .. I know exactly how that feels.

that is how I found these doctrines to be 100% Bible vetted - pristine, pure truth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I thought you were joking around - and I just could not get the joke.

Pretrib - yes one of the items on that list I gave states that we are post-trib, pre-mill and that we believe all the saints both living and the dead are raptured to heaven with Christ at the end of that tribulation and at the start of the Millennium. Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation ... he will send forth his angels to gather his elect"

As for this thread and Ellen White - you will find a chapter on this point in the book "Great Controversy" where you she describes the tribulation and another chapter where she describes seeing the 2nd coming (no dates of course except that she repeatedly says that when it is all over we will be saying something about sin being on Earth for 6000 years).

in Christ,

Bob

 

I thought you were asking for a doctrine where we use Ellen White's messages as proof for the doctrine, under the "new revelation" or "new light" model.

 

Thanks -

I think you will agree that Daniel 7 and Romans 2 existed before Ellen White - and so also all the texts listed above.

And - if you check the history of it - it is not Ellen White that first came up with the idea that Christ moved into the Most Holy Place in 1844 to start the investigative judgment. That was Hiram Edson Oct 23, 1844 was the first - and Ellen Harmon was then only 17 years old and had not yet had her first vision - nor was anyone at that time referring to her as a prophet at all.

But she does accept this doctrine some time after Oct 23, 1844 and has several visions that affirm that view of Dan 7 and Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob