Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

[Darrell C]

Hello brother DHK, perhaps I may interject with some historical Baptist, materials?

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England. As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] http://books.google.com/books?id=EIEPAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658), Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 here, right hand top Column] - http://books.google.com/books?id=W2NlnJippEkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Others, who historically taught what the Reformation [and Scripture] taught:

Additionally, both William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against Rome's neo-platonic teleological paganistic teachings:

http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm

[Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_immortality
[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_death
[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep

Do you suggest that because men believe something ...it is Biblical?

What does Scripture say?

Thankfully every Baptist fellowship I have ever been a part of have rejected sooul sleep as well as annihilation.

And read the 95 Theses. You'll see that Luther at that time embraced Purgatory.

I can see why people fall into the error of soul sleep, but annihilation? C'mon, lol. Why would someone embrace doctrine the Lord rebukes Sadducees for?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Quotations:

“William Tyndale (1484-1536),, English Bible translator and Martyr

In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - http://books.google.com/books?id=TOLOU6-00yUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180​

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

"And when he [Thomas More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118​

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118​

John Frith (1503-33), associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester​

Martin Luther (1493-1546); German reformer and Bible Translator.

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344​

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.​

"But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288​

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760​

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, “Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_state​

“As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mortalism​

George Wishart (1500-1546), Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox, and martyr.

Wishart was charged with attacking auricular confession, transubstatiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints and purgatory. Charge "XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

Charge "XVI": Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man shall sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." Blackburne, "Historical View", p.21.​

One question: can anyone help Tyndale out in his confusion as to why being made like Christ, glorified...is better than being an Angel?

And how the spirit in Heaven is not a glorified Saint?


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

I guess you meant the links. If I wanted to research SDA doctrine no need to ask you, right?

If you would rather not present prophecies that are doctrinal, okay.

What you list here cannot be attributed to a latter day prophetess, they are issues embraced and debated prior to any prophecies she may be credited with.

Perhaps I was not clear in my request, so I'll change the question: are there prophecies declared heretical that are normally objected to. For example, I am pretty by lagoonal and I could point out the objection that is commonly raised, that this doctrine was never held before the 18th century.

That was the request.


God bless.

First of all there is no doctrine held by the Seventh-day Adventist church - listed in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs where the argument from us is "this is a doctrine that we get from Ellen White's visions not the Bible".

Are you looking for such a doctrine?

We make no such claim about any of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

My point in my prior post was related to one of the tests of a prophet as listed in the Bible. Isaiah 8:20 "To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light".

So then in general it means "sola scriptura" if a prophet contradicts the Bible in a message claimed to have come from God - then it is not a true prophet since God cannot be in doctrinal error.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is what I posted from your original post:

It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.

The SDA doctrine of Investigative Judgment is absolute heresy. It negates the atonement of Christ, that Christ already satisfied God the Father making a propitiation for the sins of the world (1John 2:2), but states the atonement is going on even now in Heaven. Ergo--heresy.

"the dead who are asleep in Christ" is a reference to the SDA doctrine of soul sleep, correct? That is another heresy that the SDA promotes.

"keeping the commandments of Jesus" teaches a works salvation or at the very least a denial of eternal security. One has to maintain their salvation through works. Heresy.

"This judgment" There is no such judgment. It is fictitious. It is not supported in scripture. It is a Ellen G. White invention. Heresy.

"The completion of this ministry" What ministry? The made-ministry of Ellen G. White. You have provided nothing but the imagination of Ellen G. White.

You appear to be using the definition that is of the form "DHK does not believe it - so it must be heresy".

I prefer the actual Bible -- and in this case that would be Daniel 7 and Romans 2.

As pointed out in my prior post. "I think this thread #1 makes the Bible case you are avoiding."

That thread at that link starts with this point --

Since we seem to have a flurry of posts on the PTR and OSAS recently -- I thought I would toss this new topic out for a change.

In 2Cor 5, Dan 7 and Romans 2 we see reference to the pre-advent, future, judgment of God.

in Dan 7 we are told that the saints do not receive the kingdom until this event completes.

in Romans 2:13-16 we are told that all (both Jew and Gentile) are to be judged in that future judgment.

In 2Cor 5 we are told that both good deeds and sins -- evil deeds will be evaluated in that judgment.

In Rev 14 we see the message go out to all those who dwell on the earth "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come".

Question for the group?

When do you preach on this important topic? When do you hear preaching on it?

Is it presented in scripture as something to be ignored?

What are your thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In that "investigative Judgment" focused thread we find this

These texts all speak of the same event - the pre-advent judgment of all mankind highlighted in both NT and OT.

Rev 22:10-13 “Let him who is righteous be righteous still.. I am coming quickly”

Rev 11:18-19 “The time came for the Dead to be judged the temple of God was opened”

1 Peter 4:17-18 “Judgment begins with the house of God”

2 Cor 5:10 “We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ”

Dan 7: 22 “Judgment was passed in favor of the Saints”

Rom 2:11-16 “doers of the Law will be justified”

Matt 7 “Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter”

James 2 you are to be “judged by the Law of Liberty”

--------------------------------------------

Starting with Daniel 7 - teaching on God's Judgment of all mankind


1. 4th beast – Pagan then Papal Roman Empire.
2. Splits into 10
3. Papal Rome arises from the split – destroys 3 of the 10. vs 17-20
4. Saints are persecuted vs 21
5. Heavenly court sits while persecuting power – persecutes saints
6. =è YOU are here
7. Saints are judged – judgment passed in favor of saints vs 22
8. Court approves saints and condemns the persecuting power vs 26
9. Kingdom delivered over to Christ and the saints - vs 27


Dan 7
9 ""I kept looking Until [b]thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat[/b]; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels[/b] were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. [/b]


13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

15 ""As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
16 ""I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:


17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings[/b] who will arise from the earth.
18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, [b]for all ages to come.'

19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

21 ""I kept looking, and [b]that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise[/b]; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

The investigative judgment is something invented by Ellen White to rescue the Adventist movement from the failed predictions of William Miller. I hate to sound harsh because I like Bob, but what I said is a fact.

No offense taken - all are free to differ with me. But I make my case on the texts provided (and Romans 2 coming up) - so if you claim is that Ellen White wrote those texts upon which I posting/relying/making my case -- then I suppose you could argue it as you do. But if you accept the Bible as not written by Ellen White - then you have a challenge to show that only Ellen White would know to quote Daniel 7 and point to the details I have pointed out above.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[One Baptism]

... "keeping the commandments of Jesus" teaches a works salvation ... One has to maintain their salvation through works. Heresy. ...

Brother, was Jesus teaching 'works salvation' when He said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15​

He cited from the Ten Commandments here:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:6​

Or here:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:19

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. - Matthew 19:17​

Was John the Apostle, teaching 'works salvation':

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. - 1 John 2:3

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. - 1 John 3:22

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. - 1 John 5:2

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. - 1 John 5:3

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 12:17

Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:12

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. - Revelation 22:14​

Or Paul?

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. - 1 Corinthians 7:19​

Or Peter, speaking of that one Holy Commandment of the Ten Commandments, Exodus 20:8-11 [the only one with the words Holy and Hallowed, in it]:

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. - 2 Peter 2:21​

Of course they were not teaching works salvation. They were teaching repentance unto God, in obeying Him through the Spirit, even by/in faith, even the "faith of Jesus".

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. - Romans 8:13

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. - Galatians 5:5

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: - 1 Peter 1:22​

How did the Bible define Truth and Righteousness again? Here it is - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2209746&postcount=22

 

[BobRyan]

The Romans 2 addition - that I promised

[FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Do you suggest that because men believe something ...it is Biblical?

What does Scripture say?

Thankfully every Baptist fellowship I have ever been a part of have rejected sooul sleep as well as annihilation.

And read the 95 Theses. You'll see that Luther at that time embraced Purgatory.

I can see why people fall into the error of soul sleep, but annihilation? C'mon, lol. Why would someone embrace doctrine the Lord rebukes Sadducees for?


God bless.

Depends on what you mean by "annihilation" -

Do you mean this statement about the 2nd death? ....

"fear Him who can destroy Both body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28

Do you mean this statement about the 2nd death? ...

"the SOUL that sin - it shall DIE" Ezek 18:4

 

[One Baptism]

Depends on what you mean by "annihilation" -

Do you mean this statement about the 2nd death? ....

"fear Him who can destroy Both body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28

Do you mean this statement about the 2nd death? ...

"the SOUL that sin - it shall DIE" Ezek 18:4

Perhaps they may look at:

For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living? - Psalm 56:13

What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. - Psalm 89:48

Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. - James 5:20​

Or a great deal more, to which any passage may be openly reviewed and studied, for I love Bible Study!!!:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

 

[Rebel]

In that "investigative Judgment" focused thread we find this






No offense taken - all are free to differ with me. But I make my case on the texts provided (and Romans 2 coming up) - so if you claim is that Ellen White wrote those texts upon which I posting/relying/making my case -- then I suppose you could argue it as you do. But if you accept the Bible as not written by Ellen White - then you have a challenge to show that only Ellen White would know to quote Daniel 7 and point to the details I have pointed out above.

in Christ,

Bob

That interpretation was unknown prior to Ellen White, and it seems that since Ellen White, Adventists are the only ones to hold it. A doctrine held exclusively by one person or group makes that doctrine highly suspect, to me.

And, Bob, I always appreciate the manner and tone in which you post. I can see the fruit of the Spirit in you.

 

[vooks]

The Romans 2 addition - that I promised

[FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]

You left a crucial verse before concluding that man shall be judged according to the Law; verse 12

( For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Paul is demonstrating the EQUALITY of the Jew no Gentile as far as responsibility and judgement is concerned. Ask yourself, who are those who have 'sinned without the law'? Are these not Gentiles who have no express revealed code as a standard of guilt? Even without the Law, there is sin no there is doom. But Jews would be judged on the basis of the revealed Law.

Verse 13 onwards amplifies this point.
These verses don't prove that men will be judged according to the Law. Only if you keep ALL Laws would you be justified. Paul was VERY clear on this in Galatians 3:12 a paraphrase of Leviticus 18:5

Galatians 3:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Once again, Romans 2 is no evidence of a future Judgement based on the Law, it merely states the conditions for Legal Justification, conditions which are IMPOSSIBLE to meet as Paul readily admits elsewhere.

Romans 3:20 (KJV)
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Darrell C]

First of all there is no doctrine held by the Seventh-day Adventist church - listed in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs where the argument from us is "this is a doctrine that we get from Ellen White's visions not the Bible".

Are you looking for such a doctrine?

We make no such claim about any of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

My point in my prior post was related to one of the tests of a prophet as listed in the Bible. Isaiah 8:20 "To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light".

So then in general it means "sola scriptura" if a prophet contradicts the Bible in a message claimed to have come from God - then it is not a true prophet since God cannot be in doctrinal error.


in Christ,

Bob

Never mind Bob, lol.

I can't clarify any more than I did. You didn't actually think I was asking you to list SDA error, from your perspective did you?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

First of all there is no doctrine held by the Seventh-day Adventist church - listed in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs where the argument from us is "this is a doctrine that we get from Ellen White's visions not the Bible".

Are you looking for such a doctrine?

We make no such claim about any of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

My point in my prior post was related to one of the tests of a prophet as listed in the Bible. Isaiah 8:20 "To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light".

So then in general it means "sola scriptura" if a prophet contradicts the Bible in a message claimed to have come from God - then it is not a true prophet since God cannot be in doctrinal error.


in Christ,

Bob

I would just like to add thanks for not hammering me for the heresy of being by lagoonal, lol.

That should have read pretribulational, lol.

Maybe that would help the question.






God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Brother, was Jesus teaching 'works salvation' when He said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15​

He cited from the Ten Commandments here:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:6​

Or here:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:19

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. - Matthew 19:17​

Was John the Apostle, teaching 'works salvation':

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. - 1 John 2:3

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. - 1 John 3:22

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. - 1 John 5:2

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. - 1 John 5:3

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 12:17

Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:12

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. - Revelation 22:14​

Or Paul?

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. - 1 Corinthians 7:19​

Or Peter, speaking of that one Holy Commandment of the Ten Commandments, Exodus 20:8-11 [the only one with the words Holy and Hallowed, in it]:

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. - 2 Peter 2:21​

Of course they were not teaching works salvation. They were teaching repentance unto God, in obeying Him through the Spirit, even by/in faith, even the "faith of Jesus".

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. - Romans 8:13

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. - Galatians 5:5

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: - 1 Peter 1:22​

How did the Bible define Truth and Righteousness again? Here it is - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2209746&postcount=22

And how does God reveal truth?

Progressively.

When the Law set the standard...nobody had the revealed Gospel of Christ.

Show me identical truths concerning faith in Christ given to Israel as those eternal truths revealed to Post Pentecost believers.

While the mysteries of the Kingdom we're revealed, the Mystery of the Gospel had not been.

That is why the disciples did not abide in Him, but were scattered, abandoning Him, and even attempted to keep Christ from the Cross altogether.

Men are not saved by keeping the Law, they are saved so they can keep the Law.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+36:27&version=KJV


God bless.

 

[DHK]

You appear to be using the definition that is of the form "DHK does not believe it - so it must be heresy".

Since I believe the Bible, have studied it a number of years, I have no trouble examining those doctrines, and in the light of the Bible declare them to be heresy. They are not biblical doctrines and cannot be proven through scriptures without a great deal of the wresting of scriptures.

 

[DHK]

Brother, was Jesus teaching 'works salvation' when He said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15​

No. He was teaching his disciples. The great demonstration of our love for Christ is our obedience to him. He in no way taught that if they disobeyed in any way would lose their salvation. That is not taught there. In fact it contradicts what he said four chapters earlier in John 10:27-30.

He cited from the Ten Commandments here:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:6​

What do the Ten Commandments have to do with eternal security?
Nothing. The law shows us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. No one can keep the law or is saved through the law.

Or here:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:19​

It does not say shall be omitted from heaven.

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. - Matthew 19:17

Read the complete story. He was teaching the rich young ruler that he could not keep the whole law. The young man had lied. He went away sorrowful. He coveted his riches more than desiring Christ. He did not keep the law.

Was John the Apostle, teaching 'works salvation':

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. - 1 John 2:3​

First it is a general statement of obedience.
Second it is speaking of the commandments of Christ to his disciples which do not include the Ten Commandments. He is not speaking of OT law. He is speaking of the Christian life.

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. - 1 John 3:22

Same book; same principles. "do those things that are pleasing in his sight. It has nothing to do with the OT law. Neither does it say one will lose their salvation.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. - 1 John 5:2

Same book; same principle.
This is how we know--by keeping the principles of Christianity that Christ has taught. It does not say we will lose our salvation.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. - 1 John 5:3

Same book; same principle. It does not say we will lose our salvation.
It is speaking of the love of God. The same as John 14--the great demonstration of our love for Christ is shown in our obedience to him.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 12:17

non sequitor.

Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:12

There is no sense of sinless perfection here--an impossibility for any Christian. It is a general statement of obedience. The Christian cannot lose his salvation.

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. - Revelation 22:14

What are you trying to prove?
None of your verses prove anything except a perverted interpretation by yourself.

Perhaps you should consider this:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--If you say you do keep His commands all the time, then:

1. You have deceived yourself.
2. The truth is not in you.
3. You claim that you have never sinned.
4. You have made Christ a liar.
5. And His word is not in you.

You may want to reconsider your position.

 

[BobRyan]

Since I believe the Bible, have studied it a number of years, I have no trouble examining those doctrines, and in the light of the Bible...

To that point .. I know exactly how that feels.

that is how I found these doctrines to be 100% Bible vetted - pristine, pure truth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I would just like to add thanks for not hammering me for the heresy of being by lagoonal, lol.

That should have read pretribulational, lol.

Maybe that would help the question.

God bless.

I thought you were joking around - and I just could not get the joke.

Pretrib - yes one of the items on that list I gave states that we are post-trib, pre-mill and that we believe all the saints both living and the dead are raptured to heaven with Christ at the end of that tribulation and at the start of the Millennium. Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation ... he will send forth his angels to gather his elect"

As for this thread and Ellen White - you will find a chapter on this point in the book "Great Controversy" where you she describes the tribulation and another chapter where she describes seeing the 2nd coming (no dates of course except that she repeatedly says that when it is all over we will be saying something about sin being on Earth for 6000 years).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Never mind Bob, lol.

I can't clarify any more than I did. You didn't actually think I was asking you to list SDA error, from your perspective did you?


God bless.

I thought you were asking for a doctrine where we use Ellen White's messages as proof for the doctrine, under the "new revelation" or "new light" model.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
These texts all speak of the same event - the pre-advent judgment of all mankind highlighted in both NT and OT.

Rev 22:10-13 “Let him who is righteous be righteous still.. I am coming quickly”

Rev 11:18-19 “The time came for the Dead to be judged the temple of God was opened”

1 Peter 4:17-18 “Judgment begins with the house of God”

2 Cor 5:10 “We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ”

Dan 7: 22 “Judgment was passed in favor of the Saints”

Rom 2:11-16 “doers of the Law will be justified”

Matt 7 “Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter”

James 2 you are to be “judged by the Law of Liberty”

--------------------------------------------

Starting with Daniel 7 - teaching on God's Judgment of all mankind


1. 4th beast – Pagan then Papal Roman Empire.
2. Splits into 10
3. Papal Rome arises from the split – destroys 3 of the 10. vs 17-20
4. Saints are persecuted vs 21
5. Heavenly court sits while persecuting power – persecutes saints
6. =è YOU are here
7. Saints are judged – judgment passed in favor of saints vs 22
8. Court approves saints and condemns the persecuting power vs 26
9. Kingdom delivered over to Christ and the saints - vs 27


Dan 7
9 ""I kept looking Until [b]thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat[/b]; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels[/b] were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. [/b]


13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

15 ""As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
16 ""I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:


17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings[/b] who will arise from the earth.
18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, [b]for all ages to come.'

19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

21 ""I kept looking, and [b]that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise[/b]; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

That interpretation was unknown prior to Ellen White, and it seems that since Ellen White, Adventists are the only ones to hold it. A doctrine held exclusively by one person or group makes that doctrine highly suspect, to me.

And, Bob, I always appreciate the manner and tone in which you post. I can see the fruit of the Spirit in you.

Thanks -

I think you will agree that Daniel 7 and Romans 2 existed before Ellen White - and so also all the texts listed above.

And - if you check the history of it - it is not Ellen White that first came up with the idea that Christ moved into the Most Holy Place in 1844 to start the investigative judgment. That was Hiram Edson Oct 23, 1844 was the first - and Ellen Harmon was then only 17 years old and had not yet had her first vision - nor was anyone at that time referring to her as a prophet at all.

But she does accept this doctrine some time after Oct 23, 1844 and has several visions that affirm that view of Dan 7 and Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob