Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

[DHK]

You have no argument Bob.
What is Paul teaching? Words have meaning!

(ASV) we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

(CEV) We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.

(Darby) we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

(DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.

(EMTV) but we are confident and prefer rather to be away from home from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

(ESV) Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

(Geneva) Neuerthelesse, we are bolde, and loue rather to remoue out of the body, and to dwell with the Lord.

(GW) We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.

(ISV) We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.

(KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(KJV-1611) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(LITV) even we are fully assured, and think it good rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

(MKJV) then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

(WNT) So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

(YLT) we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

No matter what translation you read, the message is the same.
Why the unbelief?

 

[BobRyan]

You have no argument Bob.
What is Paul teaching? Words have meaning!

(ASV) we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.


...

(YLT) we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

No matter what translation you read, the message is the same.
Why the unbelief?

Everything BUT the King James and STILL "And to BE" the translation.

Not "IS to Be"

It is an "AND to BE" event that follows at some point later.

The 2Cor 5:1-4 new body given only at the 1Cor 15:51-61 point in the future - 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Which is why I point to these Bible texts -

The comfort and hope of the NT saints regarding the dead and being "WITH Christ" and our future immortal body.

1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1 Peter 1:13
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and fix your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

2 Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.




Phil 3
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. ss toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Reader be warned - the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.

 

[DHK]

Everything BUT the King James and STILL "And to BE" the translation.

Not "IS to Be"

It is an "AND to BE" event that follows at some point later.

The 2Cor 5:1-4 new body given only at the 1Cor 15:51-61 point in the future - 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

You are not making any sense Bob.
The meaning hasn't changed. You are nitpicking.
The meaning is still the same. Paul has an earthly and temporary body which he calls a tent. He will shed that tent when he dies. He is looking forward to that day. It will come soon for he knows he will die as a martyr. To be absent from that body, that temporary shell, is to be present with the Lord. That is the meaning no matter which way you look at it.
You can't change it.

 

[One Baptism]

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You are wrong.
I will not go straight to judgment but to the Lord. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord. That is the truth of Scripture for the believer taught over and over again.

Brother, did you consider that what you are presently promoting [immortal soul/spirit theology, among other things, like Futurism, Sunday Sacredness, etc, etc] is actually Roman Catholic doctrine and stems from them? I would know [and can cite it for you], having been Roman Catholic for some 30 years, before Christ Jesus delivered me from that religio-political system foretold in prophecy.

Please consider that the Scriptures I quoted were for "the believer", in matters of death and of Judgment. Will you address those texts? I will be addressing Paul's 2 Corinthians 5:8 text in just a moment, not in isolation, but in context, even in all of Scripture, especially Job, for Paul draws from there quite a bit.

Please consider what Scripture says on Judgment being for God's own people again, for I am not sure if you wanted to discuss this or what Scripture states in regards to those who die? It seems the subject has been changed from what we were speaking about, which was primarily the Judgment that takes place before Christ Jesus comes in glory for those which have professed to have followed Him, from the beginning. Did you want to address the questions therein? or did you want to study the state of those which die?:

Speaking of the Judgments DHK?

Well, we need to look at Scripture, yes?

Shall God judge the Righteous? Scripture answers, "yes".

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work. - Ecclesiastes 3:17​

Is there a "time" for that "judgment" [of the righteous] to take place according to that verse? "Yes."

Do you agree with this text brother DHK?

I ask, since the Scriptures abundantly show that God judges His people:

For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us. - Isaiah 33:22

And [as for] you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. - Ezekiel 34:17

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, [even] I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. - Ezekiel 34:20

Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. - Ezekiel 34:22

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: - Matthew 25:32

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. - Matthew 25:33

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. - Acts 10:42

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, - Hebrews 12:23​

etc.

What is the standard of the Judgment?

He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. - Psalm 72:2

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness. - Psalm 119:172​

These were on youtube, as case examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDl4D0kcoi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbdtcm6jzHA

Can you tell me specifically, with time index [when you have time], what is wrong with?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPTtslMKZVg

When Jesus comes, He comes to "execute" judgment, which means there was a process of judgment that takes place before that:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints*, - Jude 1:14 [*angels, Holy ones, demonstrable upon request]]

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. - Jude 1:15​

In Matthew 22, we see a "wedding" prepared, and "guests" invited, and the "King" comes in "to see" [examine] the guests:

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: - Matthew 22:11​

That "wedding" takes place in Heaven and God's people are to enter in by faith here, now. Notice, that the man without a "wedding" garment cannot possibly have actually entered Heaven, but he can claim to enter the "wedding" by proclaiming to have put on Christ, in other words a hypocrite. We can see this further in Matthew 25, the Ten Virgins, and further still in Daniel 7. The "wedding" is taking place now according to Scripture. If you want we can look at Matthew 22, 25, Daniel 7, etc in detail, I would be willing to do so, step by step.

Is Christ Jesus our Great High Priest? And since He is mine, what does the Great High Priest wear upon the chest? What is it called in the OT? What specific day in the Levitical Typical calender was the day of Judgment, and was it before Tabernacles or after? Was it before or after Trumpets? Was it before or after Pentecost? Was it before or after Firstfruits/Wavesheaf? Was it before or after Passover?

...But to this point, no brother, if you die, you go to the grave, and pass into Judgment by your records in the Heavenly books:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: - Hebrews 9:27​

As it is written: "... judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God."

Scripture declares how we are to "be with" the LORD, for Jesus specifically said:

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. - John 14:2

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. - John 14:3​

Therefore, it is not at anyone's death, but at His second Coming. For what need is there for Him to "come again" to get us, if anyone which dies "in Christ" is already "with" Him in Heaven? Can you answer me this please by Scripture?

Why do you take up the same argument as the Roman Catholic, Thomas Moore, of which Tyndale refutes and ask the same question of, instead of the historic Baptist position which rejected the Roman Catholic teaching of immortal soul theology, as demonstrated here?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2215619&postcount=37
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2215620&postcount=38
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2215621&postcount=39

Do you think those powerful Reformers, got their doctrine from the Seventh-day Adventist movement, or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or do you think they studied their Bibles and by the Holy Spirit came out from Romanistic theology/thinking?

If you want, I will look at Pauls' written material, for we know that He was getting from the Holy Spirit, and citing the OT and Scripture cannot be broken, and therefore cannot contradict itself. There are many which "wrest" Paul's material, even to their own destruction, as warned of by Peter, and I do not want either of us to fall into that category, ok? Brother?

Now let us look at thoroughly Pauls text of 2 Corinthians 5:8, etc. I fear no text, for I know in whom I have believed, and I know whom has given me the Truth, even Jesus Christ.

 

[One Baptism]

... The meaning [of 2 Corinthians 5:8, "and to be"] hasn't changed. ... The meaning is still the same. Paul has an earthly and temporary body which he calls a tent. He will shed that tent when he dies. He is looking forward to that day. It will come soon for he knows he will die as a martyr. To be absent from that body, that temporary shell, is to be present with the Lord. That is the meaning no matter which way you look at it.
You can't change it.

Brother DHK, you just inadvertently changed the text from "and" to "is". Do you see that brother? The two words are not synonyms.

Let's take a look at the immediate surrounding Context, 2 Corinthians 5:1-21,

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:6

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 2 Corinthians 5:9

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:11

For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 2 Corinthians 5:12

For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 2 Corinthians 5:13

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Corinthians 5:14

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2 Corinthians 5:15

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:16

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Corinthians 5:18

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21​

Many people simply miss the point of Paul in that verse, and generally misquote it, either in practice or in their heads, and forget what he says elsewhere. Let's consider what Paul does say:

[1] Firstly, the text does not read [as many ofter innocently misquote, either verbally or recite in their head]:

"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8​

The actual word inbetween "absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord" is the Greek word "kai" [and] and not "is" as many would [perhaps innocently/ignorantly] imply it to mean. For we see clearly this:

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

"2Co 5:8 θαρρουμενG2292 V-PAI-1P δεG1161 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ ευδοκουμενG2106 V-PAI-1P μαλλονG3123 ADV εκδημησαιG1553 V-AAN εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ ενδημησαιG1736 V-AAN προςG4314 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM"​

The substitution of the “and” with “is” is entirely too common these days. If the passage did read “is”, it would indicate immediateness, an equals as it were, which would go like this:

To be “absent from the body” IS [=] “to be present with the Lord”, like unto the mathematical equation 2+2 IS [=] 4. Yet that is not what we read at all. What we do read is two individual events separated by time as we shall see. The little Greek word “kai” [and] means all the difference here. And means "in addition to", not "equal to". Look again at the equation. 2 [and] 2 [is] 4. Two things separated by "and".

There is much in that little word "and", from Paul, since he is clear that the passage of time in this world still passes, but the dead know it not, and shall awake in the resurrection, and it is "then" that those which died in the Lord shall “be present with the Lord”, as it is said it is “then”, that we "shall ever be with the Lord"... that is, they were not "with" Him [the Lord, Jesus] before, except by hope while we yet lived, even "earnestly desiring" it [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "faith" [2 Corinthians 5:7] in that resurrection. Paul spake of this in numerous places, as did Peter, etc.

"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17​

If we had “immortal souls” that never die, what then is “swallowed up of life”? Nothing. Yet, Paul uses a time word, "then", a time word, and when did Paul say this was to be? Notice that Paul in his previous letter to the Corinthians designates the time of the change and reward, which is at "the Last Trump".

Scripture says that we are "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17], and that Jesus would come back for us all at once [John 14:1-4]. It is not individually as we die, but rather we, if we die [not the second death], fall into the sleep of death and are so buried in the grave, remaining in the tomb, in the dust of the earth, until that resurrection we are to be a part of [special, first or second Great].

Paul knew the Scriptures, even as others:

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psalms 50:3

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:4

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalms 50:5

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:28​

Paul clearly says:

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:8​

That word “appearing” is the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23​

 

[One Baptism]

... The meaning hasn't changed. ... The meaning is still the same. Paul has an earthly and temporary body which he calls a tent. He will shed that tent when he dies. He is looking forward to that day. It will come soon for he knows he will die as a martyr. To be absent from that body, that temporary shell, is to be present with the Lord. That is the meaning no matter which way you look at it.
You can't change it.

[1] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2216408&postcount=86

[2] Notice also another very key to this text, which is in 2 Corinthians 5:5,7, speaking about "faith", and “earnest[ness]” that is waiting for the reality of the Resurrection, not of actual "sight" or of obtaining immediately upon one's death.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7​

Paul knew that he would not enter into Heaven, until his resurrection, which would not happen in his own day of dying, but in the Day of the LORD,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind... as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thessalonians 2:2;p

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

…

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:8​

Peter says the same in all his Epistles, which we may yet come to later.

[3] Paul will not contradict himself, and also in the light of :

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” John 10:35​

For Paul knew the Scriptures:

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10 [in the context of Judgment, see Ecclesiastes 12:13-14]

His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21

If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Job 34:14

All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15

They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:16

One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. Job 21:23

And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure. Job 21:25

They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them. Job 21:26

For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? Job 21:28

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Job 21:30

Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. Job 21:32

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17​

Consider what Paul has stated just before our texts, in that he was not desirous to be without clothing for long, “naked”, but looked forward to the time of the new immortal clothing, being “clothed upon” [immortality], which he did not yet actually possess, but would have at the Resurrection. Paul constantly spoke about this:

Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. Acts 17:18​

Notice that he did not preach unto them, Platonic Dualism, which they already knew of, or of the Greek philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, Socrates] and superstitions of entering into Heaven/Hell, as an ethereal ghastial immortal non-entity, as the Greek and Roman 'religions' taught. They already taught that, being the “wisdom of this world”.

"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

"... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm​

Yet Paul preached the Resurrection:

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day. Acts 24:21

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:12

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1 Corinthians 15:13

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:21

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15:42

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Philippians 3:10

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Philippians 3:11

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:2

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Hebrews 11:35​

 

[One Baptism]

... The meaning hasn't changed. ... The meaning is still the same. Paul has an earthly and temporary body which he calls a tent. He will shed that tent when he dies. He is looking forward to that day. It will come soon for he knows he will die as a martyr. To be absent from that body, that temporary shell, is to be present with the Lord. That is the meaning no matter which way you look at it.
You can't change it.

See also previous.

This current house [mortal] and that one to come at the resurrection [immortal, swallowing up death with eternal life], and there is no house [except the grave; Job 4:19, Job 17:13; Isaiah 26:19; Nahum 3:19; etc] inbetween, only death [unclothed], asleep, awaiting the resurrection.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2 [the "in this" is the earthly mortal flesh/body]

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4​

When did Paul himself expect that to be? At "that day", being "the last day", even at "the last trump", at the very "appearing" [this word is used of Christ's Second Advent/Coming] of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of Glory, coming in Power and Glory:

For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:9

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8​

And again,

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51​

When?

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23​

Paul knew what even Job stated:

And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God. Job 19:26

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold... Job 19:27​

For notice the question that Job asks:

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Job 14:7

Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Job 14:8

[Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. Job 14:9

But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:10​

Well when "man dieth... where [is] he?"

And how does he answer?:

[As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: Job 14:11​

So too, we "fail" and "decayeth" and "drieth up" and are returned unto "dust"...

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

...hide me in the grave, ... keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, ... appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13;p [The Wrath of God is the 7 Last Plagues]

If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee... Job 14:15;p​

Job knew he would die, return unto dust, and 'wait' in the grave, in death, unconscious, knowing nothing, until Jesus called him forth in the resurrection "at the last day" when the "trump of God" shall sound, and then he would answer that call to immortal life. Paul was referencing Job, notice the words "till my change come" and when that would be!

 

[One Baptism]

...The meaning hasn't changed. ...
The meaning is still the same. Paul has an earthly and temporary body which he calls a tent. He will shed that tent when he dies. He is looking forward to that day. It will come soon for he knows he will die as a martyr. To be absent from that body, that temporary shell, is to be present with the Lord. That is the meaning no matter which way you look at it.
You can't change it.

See also previous.

[4] Let us see a similar passage in Romans 8, in which Paul explains that we are "waiting" for our freedom from the "bondage of corruption" [our current mortal body], when we "at the last trump" shall be "clothed" with that immortal one, the only 'inbetween' would to be the grave, which is death, asleep, without consciousness, in the grave, awaiting as Job would be and still is, etc:

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:21

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:22

And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23​

[5] In Genesis 2:7:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7​

A helpful Video or two or three:

[1] Death - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9uiaw5qgs
[2] Hellfire - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkRxGAhVqmc

We see how mankind was created a “living soul”, by being made of two things, which combined, made a third whole [“dust of the earth” [lifeless] + “breath of life of God” breathed into “the nostrils” = “living soul”, the whole living being], and understanding that, helps us all to further understand what happen in [1st] death.

[1] dust of the ground [lifeless]
+
[2] the breath of life [of God] [His life, not ours]
= [became]
[3] the living soul [person]

If any part of [1] or [2] is removed, [3] enters what Scripture calls death, 1st death, being sleep, 2nd death, being no more ever.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 [it is God's spirit, or breath that returns to Him, since it is His, not ours, and therefore not us, since we return to the dust.]

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4​

The only reason there is even these deaths [plural] at all, instead of instant destruction to man [Adam, and all in him], is because of Christ Jesus, the promise of His life and sacrifice, our surety from the very beginning:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8​

Paul knew this, why then don't most Christians? Because the doctrine of the 'immortal soul/spirit' is one of the two main pillars of the doctrines of the devil, for it allows him access to almost anyone on earth through various means of deception. That is why God forbids all such spiritism.

 

[One Baptism]

On the Commandments, we are told to "Keep". It was stated from Scripture:

Brother, was Jesus teaching 'works salvation' when He said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15​

He cited from the Ten Commandments here:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:6​

Or here:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:19

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. - Matthew 19:17​

Was John the Apostle, teaching 'works salvation':

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. - 1 John 2:3

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. - 1 John 3:22

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. - 1 John 5:2

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. - 1 John 5:3

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 12:17

Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:12

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. - Revelation 22:14​

Or Paul?

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. - 1 Corinthians 7:19​

Or Peter, speaking of that one Holy Commandment of the Ten Commandments, Exodus 20:8-11 [the only one with the words Holy and Hallowed, in it]:

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. - 2 Peter 2:21​

Of course they were not teaching works salvation. They were teaching repentance unto God, in obeying Him through the Spirit, even by/in faith, even the "faith of Jesus".

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. - Romans 8:13

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. - Galatians 5:5

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: - 1 Peter 1:22​

How did the Bible define Truth and Righteousness again? Here it is - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2209746&postcount=22

No. He was teaching his disciples. The great demonstration of our love for Christ is our obedience to him. He in no way taught that if they disobeyed in any way would lose their salvation. That is not taught there. In fact it contradicts what he said four chapters earlier in John 10:27-30.

Brother, please read what was cited again:

"Of course they were not teaching works salvation. They were teaching repentance unto God, in obeying Him through the Spirit, even by/in faith, even the "faith of Jesus"." [see above]​

Salvation cannot be "earned". Salvation is a free Gift.

Salvation [the free gift] can be 'lost', given up, spurned, etc.

One is not the other, neither is either saying contradictory.

Did you want to now also discuss this? We can. I have several questions for you in regards certain scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Would you be willing to consider them?

What do the Ten Commandments have to do with eternal security? Nothing. The law shows us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. No one can keep the law or is saved through the law.

Can you show me any Scripture which says "eternal security"? I have yet to have any OSAS [or irresistible grace, etc] believer show me one such verse in Scripture, but if you think you have such a verse [just one please is all I ask, and we can look at it in context], please cite it here.

The Law [Ten Commandments] does more than merely show sinners that they are in need of a Saviour. Do you know Why it shoes sinners they are in need of a Saviour? I do. It is God's very character. It is eternal.

A person outside of Christ Jesus cannot keep God's Ten Commandments, for it is not possible in their own strenghth, which is no strength, as it is written, "...for without me ye can do nothing." [John 15:5]

However, in and through Christ Jesus [who is without sin], even by the Holy Spirit, we can Keep His Commandments, as it is written, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." [Philippians 4:13]

Please notice, it does not say, "I can do all things except obey God in His Ten Commandments...", it does not say, "I can do all things, even keep the Ten Commandments of God, except the 4th one, in regards the Holy Sabbath of the LORD thy God." James is clear upon that point anyway, in the all, except one.

Indeed, no one is saved through any Law [moral, ritual/ceremonial, legal, health, theocratic, etc]. No one who teaches obedience to God, should ever say that a person is saved through their law-keeping, for the moment they do, it cease to be law-keeping, see Exodus 20:2: "I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." [Exodus 20:2]. God. Not us.

It does not say shall be omitted from heaven.

Brother, why was Lucifer [and those who followed him] excluded from Heaven?

Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. - Ezekiel 28:15

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; - 2 Peter 2:4

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44​

Sin [1 John 3:4] will not be allowed into Heaven again. Notice:

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. - Revelation 21:27

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1 John 2:4​

Brother, to know God's will:

I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. - Psalm 40:8​

And not to do it [knowingly], it is sin:

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin. - James 4:17​

Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. - Romans 7:12​

Read the complete story. He was teaching the rich young ruler that he could not keep the whole law. ...

No Brother, for I have read it, many times, that is not what is stated in Matthew 19. It plainly states, "to keep the commandments", not to not keep them. Will ye reverse the text itself?

 

[One Baptism]

On the Commandments, we are told to "Keep". It was stated from Scripture...

... The young man had lied. ...

The young man did not lie, but did not know his own heart, therefore ignorant [up till the time Jesus confronted the matter directly, but not after, then knowing], not a liar. Jesus showed him, that he was not fulfilling the Law [Ten Commandments of God, context] in matter of Covetousness. Did you not see the text wherein Jesus asked him to "follow me", even as he had the other Disciples/Apostles [Matthew 19:21]?

Through the Spirit:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8:4​

... He went away sorrowful. He coveted his riches more than desiring Christ. He did not keep the law.

This is true, after Jesus confronted the matter of the heart [covetousness, by the testing Jesus gave unto him], as it is written:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. - John 3:19​

Knowledge is the key.

Therefore, do not let us pretend that Jesus does not want us to "keep the commandments". For He does not want us to go away "sorrowful", but come to Him in repentance [turning away from sin; 1 John 3:4, and turning to God in obedience] and obey Him. For clearly, Jesus in John 14:15, 15:14, etc wants us to "keep the commandments", not for salvation, for that is what Jesus does. Saves us from what?

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. - Matthew 1:21​

And how does Jesus do that? Is it by merely declaring someone not guilty, or does it also include forgiving us of past sins through Christ Jesus, and bringing us to the point that we do not sin any longer from there?

First it is a general statement of obedience [1 John 2:3 ref]. Second it is speaking of the commandments of Christ to his disciples which do not include the Ten Commandments. He is not speaking of OT law. He is speaking of the Christian life.

Brother, in John 14:15, Jesus cited the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20:6. Jesus Christ taught them to His disciples in a far greater magnitude than the corrupt Pharisees, etc had done - Matthew 5, etc.

Love to God is Deuteronomy 6:5 [context Deut 5-6, Ten Commandments]
Love to neighbour [neigh brother] is Leviticus 19:17-18 [context sin, Ten Commandments].

God does not change. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever...

The very purpose of Christ's death was to uphold Mercy and Justice, Law and Grace:

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable. - Isaiah 42:21​

"...through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?"

Same book; same principles. "do those things that are pleasing in his sight. It has nothing to do with the OT law. Neither does it say one will lose their salvation.

Pleasing?

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words: - Isaiah 58:13​

Therefore, keeping it Holy, is doing His pleasure. And citing the Fifth Commandment...

Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. - Colossians 3:20​

Etc...

Brother, you have a misunderstanding, for the Ten Commandments are not "an OT law". They are God's eternal Law, for they are His Character transcribed by Himself, His very Holiness and Name in it.

The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure. - Psalm 111:7

They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness. - Psalm 111:8​

As for loss of salvation, I can come to that momentarily, for please let us not mix what we are speaking about. Please read the original post again.

Same book; same principle.
This is how we know--by keeping the principles of Christianity that Christ has taught. It does not say we will lose our salvation.

Brother, the texts reveal that in the "principles of Christianity that Christ has taught" [see Matthew 5, etc], are the very Ten Commandments of God.

Even the historical Baptists understood this, but now present day Baptists argue like John Agricola, who was anomian, or otherwise they argue like Jesuits do, looking to be rid of the whole, but for the one [Exodus 20:8-11] in its specificity.

The matter of salvation [which is in Christ Jesus] comes with an "if", a condition. This shall be gotten to afterwards, therefore, let us not mix what we are speaking about.

Same book; same principle. It does not say we will lose our salvation.
It is speaking of the love of God. The same as John 14--the great demonstration of our love for Christ is shown in our obedience to him.

Brother, the same writer said, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:4

Thy righteousness [is] an everlasting righteousness, and thy law [is] the truth. - Psalm 119:142

Thou [art] near, O LORD; and all thy commandments [are] truth. - Psalm 119:151​

non sequitor.

Explain how Revelation 12:17, speaking of the remnant of her [church] seed [Jesus] which "keep the commandments of God", even having the "faith of Jesus", is "non sequitur" to the present discussion? Merely saying so, does not make it so. Evidence, and Scripturally so, is needful.

There is no sense of sinless perfection here--an impossibility for any Christian. It is a general statement of obedience. The Christian cannot lose his salvation.

Brother, when the text plainly reads that the saints, "keep the commandments of God", do you take it read, that the saints "almost keep the commandments of God", or that the saints "tried to keep the commandments of God", or that the saints "kept all the commandments of God, except that 4th one in regards the Holy 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God"?

When Scripture says that Jesus "Kept [the] Commandments", do you read that He did not actually do so? if not, why then so here? Are you thinking in the power of men or of God/Christ Jesus?

Is the Christian to walk in Christ, and to have Christ Jesus indwelling in them by/through the Spirit? Is there any sin in Christ?

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - 1 John 3:9​

The Everlasting Gospel I preach from Scripture is all powerful in Christ Jesus. How is yours? He can save me from sin, not in sin.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God... Do you believe? Shew me they faith... as James says.

What are you trying to prove?
None of your verses prove anything except a perverted interpretation by yourself.

That the common evangelical gospel is worthless, powerless, even a poor shadow of the True which can truly save no one from no-thing, except perhaps from a few moments without sin. It is another gospel, indeed.

A cigarette smoker [etc] in the common evangelical gospel is stuck in limpness, and cannot ever truly be free from that sin...

...but in the Everlasting Gospel, they can be free forever, in Christ Jesus' strength.

 

[One Baptism]

...Through the Spirit:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8:4​

...

Perhaps you should consider this:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Brother, why did you not quote the previous verse?

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. - 1 John 1:7

If we are being cleaned from "all sin", we are what eventually?

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, - Jude 1:24​

Adan was made 'upright' [standing, not falling, not in sin], but Adam 'fell' [in sinning], but God shall make us to "stand":

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. - Romans 14:4​

I do not say I never had sin [past], nor sinned [past], but Christ Jesus forgave me them which I had repented of [being led of Him to do so], confessed and forsaken.

I do not say now that I have come to perfection, but as Christ Jesus leads me, and reveals to me those things [even hidden things unknown to me before, like the rich young ruler] which are sin [1 John 3:4; thus His Perfect, Holy, Just and Good Law of the Ten Commandments are ever present with me, for He having written them in my Heart!], His Holy Spirit convicts me and brings me to confess that which is sin, to confess and forsake and to have them under the blood, so that Jesus can blot them out [which is His work now], and so that I walk no more in that thing. It is even Glory to Glory, not that I should have to over and over again fall into the same sins.

--If you say you do keep His commands all the time, then:

1. You have deceived yourself.
2. The truth is not in you.
3. You claim that you have never sinned.
4. You have made Christ a liar.
5. And His word is not in you.

You may want to reconsider your position.

So long as I am abiding in Christ and He in me [by the Spirit], I do not sin, therein is the condition.

If anyone knowingly, persistently, stubbornly, siffneckedly, rebelliously refuse to walk in any of His Ten Commandments, such an one, can never be brought to Heaven.

[In knowledge] A murderer will not go there. A thief will not go there. etc... A 7th Day Sabbath-breaker will not go there...

That last one has more to do with all of this that you know. It is the sign of sanctification and of completion in Christ. A 'first [day]" Christian, is ever a work in progress, never to be completed [for they refuse to walk in all His commandments], but the true 7th Day Sabbath Christian, is revealing the sign, of the rest in Christ Jesus, for our burdenous works and rebellion are laid down, and we have taken up His light yoke and obey His Commandments from Love and by His strength.

 

[DHK]

That last one has more to do with all of this that you know. It is the sign of sanctification and of completion in Christ. A 'first [day]" Christian, is ever a work in progress, never to be completed [for they refuse to walk in all His commandments], but the true 7th Day Sabbath Christian, is revealing the sign, of the rest in Christ Jesus, for our burdenous works and rebellion are laid down, and we have taken up His light yoke and obey His Commandments from Love and by His strength.

You speak of works, the law, etc. You cannot keep the law. You can't even keep the law that your cult is known for: the Sabbath.
If you check my profile you will know I am from Canada.

What would you do if you lived but just a bit farther north then where I am now?
It is called "the land of the midnight sun" where from April 19 to Aug. 23 (or thereabouts) the sun never sets. A period of about 60 days in the summer and a similar period in the winter when the sun never rises--a land of complete darkness for two months.
If a SDA lives there will their Sabbath last for two months? From sunrise to sundown lasting 60 days? There were no Israelites living near the Arctic Circle during Biblical times. Depending on where you live it may be impossible for you to keep the Sabbath. This much is very obvious.

I may not live there, but even where I do live the temperatures have been as low as minus 70. If the Sabbath were properly kept I wouldn't have enough heat to heat my house during that period of time, but you can't think those things through. What is the modern day equivalent "picking up sticks" on the Sabbath, and why was the person stoned for it?
The "sticks" were for fuel, for heat, for warmth, for cooking, etc.
The application would be that you would have to cut off (or request to have cut off) all your electricity, gas, etc., before your Sabbath Day begins. You must not use anything that someone is providing for you. You are breaking the Sabbath if someone is providing you electricity for you are causing that person to work at that moment. That is the principle.

How far can you travel? Apparently not more than about half a mile, or a "Sabbath Day's Journey." How far do you travel to go to your church?
Is driving a car work? In OT times, they went to the Temple the day before.

I have only started. I could probably write a book on this. But there is no possible way that you are keeping the Sabbath. Therefore, even according to your own religion, you would not be going to heaven.

Furthermore, the Sabbath is not for worship. The Sabbath is for rest.
You have it wrong.

 

[One Baptism]

...You have it wrong.

No brother, I do not, but you presently are carrying a lot of incorrect apriori in regards the Sabbath of the LORD thy God. The 'arguments' [which are really without any real substance when looked at in depth, in detail and in prayerful Scriptural consideration, for I having already been through them before many times] are not new, for there is nothing new under the sun, and shall be once more shown to be sand. I will begin a new thread shortly on it [and address your comments therein with reference to this response], and if you will, follow me there, and study with me brother, for there are things, you have not yet considered therein, ok?

 

[vooks]

Brother DHK, you just inadvertently changed the text from "and" to "is". Do you see that brother? The two words are not synonyms.

Let's take a look at the immediate surrounding Context, 2 Corinthians 5:1-21,

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:6

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 2 Corinthians 5:9

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:11

For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 2 Corinthians 5:12

For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 2 Corinthians 5:13

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Corinthians 5:14

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2 Corinthians 5:15

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:16

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Corinthians 5:18

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21​

Many people simply miss the point of Paul in that verse, and generally misquote it, either in practice or in their heads, and forget what he says elsewhere. Let's consider what Paul does say:

[1] Firstly, the text does not read [as many ofter innocently misquote, either verbally or recite in their head]:

"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8​

The actual word inbetween "absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord" is the Greek word "kai" [and] and not "is" as many would [perhaps innocently/ignorantly] imply it to mean. For we see clearly this:

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

"2Co 5:8 θαρρουμενG2292 V-PAI-1P δεG1161 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ ευδοκουμενG2106 V-PAI-1P μαλλονG3123 ADV εκδημησαιG1553 V-AAN εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ ενδημησαιG1736 V-AAN προςG4314 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM"​

The substitution of the “and” with “is” is entirely too common these days. If the passage did read “is”, it would indicate immediateness, an equals as it were, which would go like this:

To be “absent from the body” IS [=] “to be present with the Lord”, like unto the mathematical equation 2+2 IS [=] 4. Yet that is not what we read at all. What we do read is two individual events separated by time as we shall see. The little Greek word “kai” [and] means all the difference here. And means "in addition to", not "equal to". Look again at the equation. 2 [and] 2 [is] 4. Two things separated by "and".

There is much in that little word "and", from Paul, since he is clear that the passage of time in this world still passes, but the dead know it not, and shall awake in the resurrection, and it is "then" that those which died in the Lord shall “be present with the Lord”, as it is said it is “then”, that we "shall ever be with the Lord"... that is, they were not "with" Him [the Lord, Jesus] before, except by hope while we yet lived, even "earnestly desiring" it [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "faith" [2 Corinthians 5:7] in that resurrection. Paul spake of this in numerous places, as did Peter, etc.

"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17​

If we had “immortal souls” that never die, what then is “swallowed up of life”? Nothing. Yet, Paul uses a time word, "then", a time word, and when did Paul say this was to be? Notice that Paul in his previous letter to the Corinthians designates the time of the change and reward, which is at "the Last Trump".

Scripture says that we are "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17], and that Jesus would come back for us all at once [John 14:1-4]. It is not individually as we die, but rather we, if we die [not the second death], fall into the sleep of death and are so buried in the grave, remaining in the tomb, in the dust of the earth, until that resurrection we are to be a part of [special, first or second Great].

Paul knew the Scriptures, even as others:

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psalms 50:3

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:4

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalms 50:5

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:28​

Paul clearly says:

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:8​

That word “appearing” is the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23​

2 Corinthians 5:1 -4(ESV) 1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life

Why is the body referred to as a TENT?

 

[vooks]

The young man did not lie, but did not know his own heart, therefore ignorant [up till the time Jesus confronted the matter directly, but not after, then knowing], not a liar. Jesus showed him, that he was not fulfilling the Law [Ten Commandments of God, context] in matter of Covetousness. Did you not see the text wherein Jesus asked him to "follow me", even as he had the other Disciples/Apostles [Matthew 19:21]?

Through the Spirit:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8:4​

This is true, after Jesus confronted the matter of the heart [covetousness, by the testing Jesus gave unto him], as it is written:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. - John 3:19​

Knowledge is the key.

Therefore, do not let us pretend that Jesus does not want us to "keep the commandments". For He does not want us to go away "sorrowful", but come to Him in repentance [turning away from sin; 1 John 3:4, and turning to God in obedience] and obey Him. For clearly, Jesus in John 14:15, 15:14, etc wants us to "keep the commandments", not for salvation, for that is what Jesus does. Saves us from what?

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. - Matthew 1:21​

And how does Jesus do that? Is it by merely declaring someone not guilty, or does it also include forgiving us of past sins through Christ Jesus, and bringing us to the point that we do not sin any longer from there?

Brother, in John 14:15, Jesus cited the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20:6. Jesus Christ taught them to His disciples in a far greater magnitude than the corrupt Pharisees, etc had done - Matthew 5, etc.

Love to God is Deuteronomy 6:5 [context Deut 5-6, Ten Commandments]
Love to neighbour [neigh brother] is Leviticus 19:17-18 [context sin, Ten Commandments].

God does not change. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever...

The very purpose of Christ's death was to uphold Mercy and Justice, Law and Grace:

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable. - Isaiah 42:21​

"...through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?"

Pleasing?

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words: - Isaiah 58:13​

Therefore, keeping it Holy, is doing His pleasure. And citing the Fifth Commandment...

Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. - Colossians 3:20​

Etc...

Brother, you have a misunderstanding, for the Ten Commandments are not "an OT law". They are God's eternal Law, for they are His Character transcribed by Himself, His very Holiness and Name in it.

The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure. - Psalm 111:7

They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness. - Psalm 111:8​

As for loss of salvation, I can come to that momentarily, for please let us not mix what we are speaking about. Please read the original post again.

Brother, the texts reveal that in the "principles of Christianity that Christ has taught" [see Matthew 5, etc], are the very Ten Commandments of God.

Even the historical Baptists understood this, but now present day Baptists argue like John Agricola, who was anomian, or otherwise they argue like Jesuits do, looking to be rid of the whole, but for the one [Exodus 20:8-11] in its specificity.

The matter of salvation [which is in Christ Jesus] comes with an "if", a condition. This shall be gotten to afterwards, therefore, let us not mix what we are speaking about.

Brother, the same writer said, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:4

Thy righteousness [is] an everlasting righteousness, and thy law [is] the truth. - Psalm 119:142

Thou [art] near, O LORD; and all thy commandments [are] truth. - Psalm 119:151​

Explain how Revelation 12:17, speaking of the remnant of her [church] seed [Jesus] which "keep the commandments of God", even having the "faith of Jesus", is "non sequitur" to the present discussion? Merely saying so, does not make it so. Evidence, and Scripturally so, is needful.

Brother, when the text plainly reads that the saints, "keep the commandments of God", do you take it read, that the saints "almost keep the commandments of God", or that the saints "tried to keep the commandments of God", or that the saints "kept all the commandments of God, except that 4th one in regards the Holy 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God"?

When Scripture says that Jesus "Kept [the] Commandments", do you read that He did not actually do so? if not, why then so here? Are you thinking in the power of men or of God/Christ Jesus?

Is the Christian to walk in Christ, and to have Christ Jesus indwelling in them by/through the Spirit? Is there any sin in Christ?

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - 1 John 3:9​

The Everlasting Gospel I preach from Scripture is all powerful in Christ Jesus. How is yours? He can save me from sin, not in sin.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God... Do you believe? Shew me they faith... as James says.

That the common evangelical gospel is worthless, powerless, even a poor shadow of the True which can truly save no one from no-thing, except perhaps from a few moments without sin. It is another gospel, indeed.

A cigarette smoker [etc] in the common evangelical gospel is stuck in limpness, and cannot ever truly be free from that sin...

...but in the Everlasting Gospel, they can be free forever, in Christ Jesus' strength.

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would have you know that as far as the Law is concerned he was BLAMELESS
Philipians 3:6 (ESV)
6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

Why did Jesus call him seeing he was BLAMELESS?

 

[BobRyan]

Everything BUT the King James and STILL "And to BE" the translation.

Not "IS to Be"

It is an "AND to BE" event that follows at some point later.

The 2Cor 5:1-4 new body given only at the 1Cor 15:51-61 point in the future - 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

The comfort and hope of the NT saints regarding the dead and being "WITH Christ" and our future immortal body.

1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1 Peter 1:13
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and fix your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

2 Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.




Phil 3
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. ss toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Reader be warned - the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.

The focus in both sections above - is on the future resurrection this is why Paul says "AND to be at home WITH the Lord" in 2Cor 5 same as 1Thess 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

You are not making any sense Bob.
The meaning hasn't changed. You are nitpicking.
The meaning is still the same.

Not true - the man-made tradition that is "inserted" that is eisegeted INTO the text saying "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present" makes it a definition of Absent - so that by definition the moment of death is the moment one is present with the Lord because that is the "definition of absent" in that man-made tradition or eisegesis.

But in the actual Bible Paul speaks of TWO different events "To BE Absent from the body" and then also "AND TO BE present WITH the Lord". Two distinct events.

Which is key since in 2Cor 5:1-4 Paul focused on the FUTURE event of the resurrection where we get the 2nd body - the immortal - heavenly body eternal in the heavens -

Paul has an earthly and temporary body which he calls a tent. He will shed that tent when he dies. He is looking forward to that day. It will come soon for he knows he will die as a martyr.

2Cor 5 He speaks of 3 different states
1. - at home in this decaying body.
2. - the unclothed state - between
3. - clothed in the 2nd body - eternal immortal - at the resurrection.

not THREE bodies -- not an immortal eternal body at death AND THEN another one just like it at the bodily resurrection of the saints.

That is NEVER a teaching in the NT.

To be absent from that body, that temporary shell, is to be present with the Lord.

Great example of what we DO NOT find in 2Cor 5 - so it is simply "made up as needed" - the dark ages is full of that sort of thing.

I will stick with the Bible on this one - not man made tradition.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You speak of works, the law, etc. You cannot keep the law. You can't even keep the law that your cult is known for: the Sabbath.

Paul says there is a group that cannot keep God's Law in Romans 8 and contrasts that group with the saved saints who do keep God's Law.

Your war against God's Law is clear.

Paul predicts this very thing.

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, "Colossians 1:9-14


So that even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" strongly affirm that the TEN Commandments are ALL included inthe MORAL LAW of God - from Eden to this very day -- applicable to the saints, and to all mankind. So much for "your cult" fictions.

Were we "simply not supposed to notice"???

You speak to the 5th largest Christian group on the planet placing yourself in a position that opposes EVEN the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and D.L. Moody in your war against God's Commandments.

Why do that?

 

[BobRyan]

2 Corinthians 5:1 -4(ESV) 1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life

Why is the body referred to as a TENT?

It is torn down - decaying in this life - this body is mortal - in 2Cor 5 - so also "mortal man" is the designation for us in the Bible.

But in 2Cor 5:1-4 there is another body - given to us at the 1Cor 15:51-61 resurrection - at the coming of Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Not true - the man-made tradition that is "inserted" that is eisegeted INTO the text saying "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present" makes it a definition of Absent - so that by definition the moment of death is the moment one is present with the Lord because that is the "definition of absent" in that man-made tradition or eisegesis.

But in the actual Bible Paul speaks of TWO different events "To BE Absent from the body" and then also "AND TO BE present WITH the Lord". Two distinct events.

Which is key since in 2Cor 5:1-4 Paul focused on the FUTURE event of the resurrection where we get the 2nd body - the immortal - heavenly body eternal in the heavens -

You are ignoring context. He is speaking of his impending death. He may be killed at any moment. At any moment he may die, be martyred, etc. That is why he speaks of "his desire." He is not afraid to die.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
If he were taken from them right there and then, he would be with the Lord. That is the teaching of Paul.

(CEV) We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.
Clear isn't it? At death we leave the body and go and be with the Lord.
Almost every translation gives that sense. Immediately, as soon as we leave the body, our spirit is with the Lord.
We wait for the redemption of our bodies. It is not speaking of the body here.

(EMTV) but we are confident and prefer rather to be away from home from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
There is a definite contrast, a preference that comes without any time lapse. To put a time lapse in there is eiseigesis. It is a disgrace to scripture. He is confident that once he leaves the body he is present with the Lord or at home with the Lord.
To be away from the home of the body and to be at home with the Lord
There can't be any clearer contrast that Paul could make. It takes place immediately.

(ISV) We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.
To be away from this body is to live with the Lord.

(MKJV) then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.
--It takes place at the same time. The grammar of the verse is unavoidable.

Even Wesley, also an Arminian, simply says concerning verse 8 this:

Verse 8. Present with the Lord - This demonstrates that the happiness of the saints is not deferred till the resurrection.

The happiness of the saints is not deferred until the resurrection.
It happens as soon as one dies.