And therefore, as we have pointed out, it is an SDA doctrine, unknown before 1844. It is a "cultish" doctrine, not a Biblical one.
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Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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I thought you were joking around - and I just could not get the joke.
Pretrib - yes one of the items on that list I gave states that we are post-trib, pre-mill and that we believe all the saints both living and the dead are raptured to heaven with Christ at the end of that tribulation and at the start of the Millennium. Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation ... he will send forth his angels to gather his elect"
As for this thread and Ellen White - you will find a chapter on this point in the book "Great Controversy" where you she describes the tribulation and another chapter where she describes seeing the 2nd coming (no dates of course except that she repeatedly says that when it is all over we will be saying something about sin being on Earth for 6000 years).
in Christ,
Bob
Well my humor gets me in trouble sometimes. Guess I'll never learn. But auto correct on this dumb tablet isn't helping. You know, didn't think about it, but I'll start a thread on the rapture. Last one was derailed by some Catholics. lol
I hope you'll join in. Always best when discussed between pre and post trib believers.
I rarely read extra biblical material any more. I find it better just to study Scripture.
And I am a young earth creationist, also. Not a popular view any more.
God bless.
No, just asking objections made to doctrinal issues by those who reject the SDA. In regards to prophesies that is.
Think I'll bow out. I can see you have your hands full and to be honest I'm just not that interested in people of the past. Just the ones I can speak to now.
Look for the new thread. There will be a poll.
God bless.
BobRyan
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One Baptism
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Speaking of the Judgments DHK?
Well, we need to look at Scripture, yes?
Shall God judge the Righteous? Scripture answers, "yes".
I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work. - Ecclesiastes 3:17
Is there a "time" for that "judgment" [of the righteous] to take place according to that verse? "Yes."
Do you agree with this text brother DHK?
I ask, since the Scriptures abundantly show that God judges His people:
For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us. - Isaiah 33:22
And [as for] you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. - Ezekiel 34:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, [even] I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. - Ezekiel 34:20
Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. - Ezekiel 34:22
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: - Matthew 25:32
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. - Matthew 25:33
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. - Acts 10:42
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, - Hebrews 12:23
And [as for] you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. - Ezekiel 34:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, [even] I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. - Ezekiel 34:20
Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. - Ezekiel 34:22
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: - Matthew 25:32
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. - Matthew 25:33
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. - Acts 10:42
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, - Hebrews 12:23
etc.
What is the standard of the Judgment?
He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. - Psalm 72:2
My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness. - Psalm 119:172
My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness. - Psalm 119:172
These were on youtube, as case examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDl4D0kcoi0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbdtcm6jzHA
Can you tell me specifically, with time index [when you have time], what is wrong with?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPTtslMKZVg
When Jesus comes, He comes to "execute" judgment, which means there was a process of judgment that takes place before that:
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints*, - Jude 1:14 [*angels, Holy ones, demonstrable upon request]]
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. - Jude 1:15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. - Jude 1:15
In Matthew 22, we see a "wedding" prepared, and "guests" invited, and the "King" comes in "to see" [examine] the guests:
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: - Matthew 22:11
That "wedding" takes place in Heaven and God's people are to enter in by faith here, now. Notice, that the man without a "wedding" garment cannot possibly have actually entered Heaven, but he can claim to enter the "wedding" by proclaiming to have put on Christ, in other words a hypocrite. We can see this further in Matthew 25, the Ten Virgins, and further still in Daniel 7. The "wedding" is taking place now according to Scripture. If you want we can look at Matthew 22, 25, Daniel 7, etc in detail, I would be willing to do so, step by step.
Is Christ Jesus our Great High Priest? And since He is mine, what does the Great High Priest wear upon the chest? What is it called in the OT? What specific day in the Levitical Typical calender was the day of Judgment, and was it before Tabernacles or after? Was it before or after Trumpets? Was it before or after Pentecost? Was it before or after Firstfruits/Wavesheaf? Was it before or after Passover?
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As you post so be it.
You will be judged by your works.
I will be accepted by my Savior. I will never be judged for my sins. They are under the blood, atoned for, never to be remembered again.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
I know that if I should die I will go straight to heaven. I am fully assured of that, even if I were to commit some bad work right now.
But you are not sure.
Perhaps some day you will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment because you have no assurance of your salvation. Your salvation is not based on Christ and Christ alone, and therefore cannot be assured of heaven.
One Baptism
Active Member
Brother, you are presently carrying very many misunderstandings about me, and what I believe according to Scripture, and I would like time to further explain and show this unto you by Scripture, as well as several misconceptions of the Scripture, judgment, salvation, etc that you are presently carrying.
But to this point, no brother, if you die, you go to the grave, and pass into Judgment by your records in the Heavenly books:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: - Hebrews 9:27
As it is written: "... judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God."
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2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
You are wrong.
I will not go straight to judgment but to the Lord. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord. That is the truth of Scripture for the believer taught over and over again.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
2Cor 5 does not say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" -- not in 1Cor 5:8, not in 2 Cor 5:8 not in 2Cor 5 not in the NT not in the OT.
2Cor 5 says that it is at the resurrection - at the 2nd coming that we receive the immortal eternal body made in the heavens. 1Cor 15:51 through the end of chapter says it is only at the 2nd coming that we receive that new body.
And as we see in the text you quote Paul desires to be in that future state.
Phil 3 "that I may ATTAIN TO the resurrection from the dead"
2 Tim 4 the crown of righteousness - given to Paul on that last day - at the 2nd coming.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1Peter 1:13 Fix your hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Thess 4 says of the 2nd coming and resurrection - "and thus" (and in this way) "shall we ever be WITH the Lord".
John 14:1-3 "I will COME AGAIN to receive you to Myself - so that you may be WITH me where I AM"
vooks
Active Member
Here goes soul sleep recycled arguments
1. What is to be ABSENT from the body?
2. What is to be PRESENT with the Lord?
Hope this is clearer
Philippians 1:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
No text says "to BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" -- but if you find one -- let us know.
2 Cor 5 says that at some point we get immortal eternal bodies -- do you think you have one now? do you think you get one of those before you are bodily resurrected? how many bodies do you think you are going to have in heaven?
2 Cor 5 says that at some point we get immortal eternal bodies -- do you think you have one now? do you think you get one of those before you are bodily resurrected? how many bodies do you think you are going to have in heaven?
vooks
Active Member
It says just that . Show me any (per)version that says otherwise
you have a spirit bro
It says what it says and means what it means. No denial of this scripture; no amount of unbelief by you will change its meaning.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
There is no getting around verse 6 (or verse 7 for that fact).
Paul states this in "all confidence" or assurance: We are always confident KNOWING that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
You can't get much more definite a statement then that. It is not a desire, but a fact. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Paul said in Romans 8 that we wait for the redemption of our bodies.
He is not speaking of our resurrection here. He is speaking of the immortality of our spirit which goes straight to be with the Lord. He is speaking of the same spirit of Mary and the Apostles who are now with the Lord, as well as our own loved ones, whom Paul refers to as the dead in Christ in 1Thes.4:16.
At the resurrection their bodies will rise first.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
But their spirits are already with the Lord.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
He taught the same truth to the Philippians:
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
--To live on this earth is to live for Christ. To die is gain for it is to be immediately in the presence of Christ. That is the teaching here.
There is no soul sleep.
There is no annihilation for the unbeliever.
These ungodly concepts come from paganism, not the Bible.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
But you have to "read the text" - for example -
NKJV (Which in this case reads the same as KJV)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
And then of course the part of 2Cor 5 that does NOT say "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord"
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body AND TO BE present with the Lord.
Indeed you do if you are going to the extreme of condemning KJV and NKJV as perversion.
How sad.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Be careful just then - some people here claim it is "perversion" to read it as the KJV and NKJV have it -- "AND TO BE present with the Lord"
All agree that " while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord."
Where the debate comes in is when some "imagine" that "TO BE absent from the body, IS TO BE present with the Lord" -- is in the actual Bible.
It is not.
You can't get much more definite a statement then that.
It is not a desire, but a fact.
By contrast we have the non-Bible fiction that
dhk said:
A quote that only comes from man-made-tradition not the actual Bible.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The comfort and hope of the NT saints regarding the dead and being "WITH Christ" and our future immortal body.
1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Peter 1:13
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and fix your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
2 Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Phil 3
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. ss toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Reader be warned - the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.
1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Peter 1:13
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and fix your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
2 Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Phil 3
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. ss toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Reader be warned - the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.
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vooks
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