Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

[Darrell C]

The apocalyptic symbols of Rev 11 include the city "spiritually Sodom" AND also "Egypt".

Revelation 11:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


And it is clear their dead bodies will lie in the street of Jerusalem, an actual city though defined as Sodom and Egypt.

Again, this conflicts with what Scripture speaks about the Word of God...everywhere else.

The day-for-year Historicist principle in Rev 11, 12, 13 just as it is in Dan 7, 8, 9 when it comes to apocalyptic prophecy.

There is no day for year principle, only periods of 7 in Daniel 9, which is understood to represent years. And it is this which is constantly shown to be speaking of years, specifically, seven year periods, and then 3 1/2 years.

There is no conversion there.

The day for years in times, times, and half a time...still represents years.


Revelation 11:3

King James Version (KJV)

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


It's made clear in the text that 3 1/2 years are in view. You can't convert forty two months to 1,260 years at all.

in Dan 9 having had that method proven beyond all doubt with the 490 days - 70 weeks - that translate to the 490 years pointing to the first coming of Christ from the time of restoring Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity was to end.

Except there is no "days" in the Prophecy:


Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


And when we balance this with Revelation 11 we see a harmony because the 3 1/2 year periods accommodate Antichrist's cessation of sacrifice and oblation, which also corresponds to Christ's teaching that when this occurs they are to run for the hills.

You are imposing days where there are no days, only years. This negates a consistency in the formula, not to mention conflicts with the account where we see two dead bodies lie in the street of a literal City, which, called Sodom and Egypt spiritually or no, the symbolic meaning still represents an actual city.

It revives in France after 3.5 years of the official state rule being atheism - they relented on that point after 3.5 years.

So we have to give equal time to both the witnesses as well as the Gentiles, which with the formula makes for 2,520 years, which cannot be imposed into History. You can't just use the formula as it is convenient.

The Antichrist's reign of terror and the Witnesses Ministry are not concurrent.

It is when Antichrist ceases sacrifice and oblation that he stands in the Temple proclaiming himself god, so we would also have to see history show Antichrist doing that for 1,260 years, which we don't.

It is taken out of the reach of human intervention - so that unlike the 1260 years where it was kept out of reach -- it became available to all similar to the first century access.

But that is not the case in History: the Word of God was not taken out of reach of human intervention.

And as God points out in Zech 4 that WORD is symbolized as the "two olive trees" and the "two lampstands".

But what is the Word?

That's the problem with spiritualizing a text: the symbology nullifies what it is supposed to represent.


Zechariah 4:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.


The symbology represents what God is doing.


8 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.


In view, I believe, we see the Lord looking into the future, and the future is Christ.


11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Who does the Spirit of God work through? He utilizes the Word of God through men. That is true today as well.

That will be true of the Two Witnesses.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible and the oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

Whereas in the New Testament we see water being used to represent the Word and the Spirit:



John 7:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Ephesians 5:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,



Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Could you list the New Testament that have a New Covenant context where oil is used to represent the Spirit of God?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The Protestant Reformation is long before the 19th century - and all historians admit that the Historicist model was used as the Protestant Reformer's mode for 300.

Darby shows up late to that party.

lol...well, in BB we have a fellow that can't go two sentences without mentioning Darby. Gets rather tiresome.

And please don't make me explain my humor again...that hurts my feelings.

The bible burning and torture infallibly (supposedly) commanded in the dark ages by the RCC - is pretty hard to ignore. Even their own Benedict admits that 25 million are on record as slaughtered under that system and as much as 2/3's of the records are missing.

That's very interesting, however, the 1,260 days would have to have the same context as Revelation 11 provides, which would be of the Two Testaments, ahem, er...kicking butt.

Not subdued.

As sad as that it - the LATERAN IV command to "EXTERMINATE heretics" is still demanded - maintained as an "Infallible" command by the RCC because it is an ecumenical council that is doing this and adding it to their own canon law.

When is the last time a Catholic killed an infidel?

And how does that impact the Word of God as a constant in the affairs of men?

There is always a remnant, Bob, despite the conditions of the times.

having admitted to those sad facts of actual history that cannot be swept under a rug for the sake of PC style and popularity - still I never claim that every Catholic in the dark ages was lost. Not sure where you got that.

It was a counter to this statement:

The point I am making about the day-for-year 1260 year dark ages with the Catholic church as the persecuting power against the saints - is premillennial and is not promoted by Catholics.

And the point remains that regardless of atrocities committed by men in religious power and rule, the Word of God has never ceased to function and perform that which God has given it for. If that were true, then the thought that the Word of God can die might have some validity.

And the most compelling conflict with the formula is that you have it reversed, it seems...


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


The 1,260 days which you view as years would support the opposite view, that the Word of God was active during this time, though you have this time as a time when the Word of God is suspended from action:

Originally Posted by BobRyan View Post
It is taken out of the reach of human intervention - so that unlike the 1260 years where it was kept out of reach -- it became available to all similar to the first century access.

But that is not what we see here:


Revelation 11:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


We just can't produce a picture of the Word of God being out of human reach in this time. We can't impose the model you are presenting, because it is clear that in this 1,260 days the Two Witnesses are pro-active, not silent, not subdued, but in control.

The 70 weeks of Dan 9 cannot be made into 490 years unless you take each day in those weeks and make it a solar year. Again - just a fact that is accepted by all.

in Christ,

Bob

But the word day is not in the text, Bob. That's the problem with the formula. Seventy sevens, not seventy seven day periods.

We take each unit, not day, in each seven and see them as years.

There is no conversion.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Didn't Darby invent it in the 19th century?

The Protestant Reformation is long before the 19th century - and all historians admit that the Historicist model was used as the Protestant Reformer's mode for 300
Darby shows up late to that party.

lol...well, in BB we have a fellow that can't go two sentences without mentioning Darby. Gets rather tiresome.

You appear to be talking about "yourself" since you brought Darby into this thread -- not sure why you are doing it though? Self deprecating humor maybe??

Oh no wait! you mean someone else is touting Darby -- I think I missed that conversation -- wherever it is ...

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding the 1260 years of dark ages style persecution of the saints - when both the OT and NT were fully in place - as we find that time predicted in Dan 7, predicted in Rev 11, 12, 13 etc

The bible burning and torture infallibly (supposedly) commanded in the dark ages by the RCC - is pretty hard to ignore. Even their own Benedict admits that 25 million are on record as slaughtered under that system and as much as 2/3's of the records are missing.

As sad as that it - the LATERAN IV command to "EXTERMINATE heretics" is still demanded - maintained as an "Infallible" command by the RCC because it is an ecumenical council that is doing this and adding it to their own canon law.

having admitted to those sad facts of actual history that cannot be swept under a rug for the sake of PC style and popularity - still I never claim that every Catholic in the dark ages was lost. Not sure where you got that.

The 70 weeks of Dan 9 cannot be made into 490 years unless you take each day in those weeks and make it a solar year. Again - just a fact that is accepted by all.

That's very interesting, however, the 1,260 days would have to have the same context as Revelation 11 provides, which would be of the Two Testaments,

Certainly the dark ages of RCC domination and persecution of the saints happen after the two Testaments exist - 538 A.D. - 1798 A.D. ending with the pope taken captive by the French and the Vatican's holy Roman empire abolished

ahem, er...kicking butt.

Not subdued.

When is the last time a Catholic killed an infidel?

That is an interesting question - when do you suppose they will release their archives??

And how does that impact the Word of God as a constant in the affairs of men?

During that 1260 years - it is the core of Christendom that is captive and captured by the RCC - not surprising that the Bible "noticed".

And the point remains that regardless of atrocities committed by men in religious power and rule, the Word of God has never ceased to function

But the witness of the Bible during the 1260 years was under conditions of "sackcloth and ashes" according to the Bible.


[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then in France that witness falls silent for 3.5 years. Nov 24 1793 – spring 1797 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heb 6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]


Christ is "crucified again" in Heb 6 speaking of the result of the saved turning against their own forgiveness and back to a life of sin.

The witness of the Bible in france was terminated for 3.5 years starting in 1793 by decreed atheism.

Does not mean that the "Bible died in 1793" or that "Christ is back in grave" every time someone returns to a life of sin in Heb 6

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The 70 weeks of Dan 9 cannot be made into 490 years unless you take each day in those weeks and make it a solar year. Again - just a fact that is accepted by all.

l
But the word day is not in the text, Bob. That's the problem with the formula. Seventy sevens, not seventy seven day periods.

We take each unit, not day, in each seven .

What is the "other unit" in 70 weeks that numbers 490???

I think this one is pretty hard to get around.

===============================

[FONT=&quot]
Methodists

Adam Clarke's commentary published in 1831 supports the interpretation that the little horn is Papal Rome by this comment "Among Protestant writers this is considered to be the popedom."[15]
He stated that the 1260-year period should commence in 755, the year Pepin the Short actually invaded Lombard territory, resulting in the Pope's elevation from a subject of the Byzantine Empire to an independent head of state.[16] The Donation of Pepin, which first occurred in 754 and again in 756 gave to the Pope temporal power of the Papal States. His time line, which began in 755 will end in 2015. But his introductory comments on Daniel 7 added 756 as an alternative commencement date [17] Based on this, commentators anticipate the end of the Papacy in 2016:
“As the date of the prevalence and reign of antichrist must, according to the principles here laid down, be fixed at A.D. 756, therefore the end of this period of his reign must be A.D. 756 added to 1260; equal to 2016, the year of the Christian era set by infinite wisdom for this long-prayed-for event. Amen and amen!" [18][19]

History

This view was recognized by the Jews[5] as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church.[6] The day-year principle was first used in Christian exposition in 380 AD by Tychonius, who interpreted the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9 as three and a half years, writing 'three days and a half; that is, three years and six months' ('dies tres et dimidium; id est annos tres et menses sex').[7] In the 5th century Faustus of Riez gave the same interpretation of Revelation 11:9, writing 'three and a half days which correspond to three years and six months' ('Tres et dimidius dies tribus annis et sex mensibus respondent),[8] and in c. 550 Primasius also gave the same interpretation, writing 'it is possible to understand the three days and a half as three years and six months' ('Tres dies et dimidium possumus intelligere tres annos et sex menses').[8] The same interpretation of Revelation 11:9 was given by the later Christian expositors Bede (730 AD), as well as Anspert, Arethas, Haymo[disambiguation needed], and Berengaud (all of the ninth century).[8] Primasius appears to have been the first to appeal directly to previous Biblical passages in order to substantiate the principle, referring to Numbers 14:34 in support of his interpretation of the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9

.[9] Haymo and Bruno Astensis "justify it by the parallel case of Ezekiel lying on his side 390 days, to signify 390 years ; — i. e. a day for a year. — ".[10] Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians.[11][12][13]

Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards,[14] George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton as exponents of this school.[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-year_principle[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –

Dan 7:25
Until a time and times and the dividing of time.
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.
If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.

hint - 1798

Jamieson Fausset Brown
Dan 7:25

The 1260 years of papal misrule in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by ELLIOTT set at A.D. 529 or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about A.D. 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from A.D. 529.


Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Dan 7:25
a time
That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.
[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:24 70 weeks -- 490 days - 490 years.

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry Dan 9:24 -- 70 weeks[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. The times here determined are somewhat hard to be understood. In general, it is seventy weeks, that is, seventy times seven years, which makes just 490 years. The great affairs that are yet to come concerning the people of Israel, and the city of Jerusalem, will lie within the compass of these years.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1.) These years are thus described by weeks, [1.] In conformity to the prophetic style, which is, for the most part, abstruse, and out of the common road of speaking, that the things foretold might not lie too obvious. [2.] To put an honour upon the division of time into weeks, which is made purely by the sabbath day, and to signify that that should be perpetual.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke – [/FONT]
Verse 24
[FONT=&quot]Seventy weeks[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are determined - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]This is a most important prophecy, and has given rise to a variety of opinions relative to the proper mode of explanation; but the chief difficulty, if not the only one, is to find out the time from which these seventy weeks should be dated. What is here said by the angel is not a direct answer to Daniel's prayer. He prays to know when the seventy weeks of the captivity are to end. Gabriel shows him that there are seventy weeks determined relative to a redemption from another sort of captivity, which shall commence with the going forth of the edict to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, and shall terminate with the death of Messiah the Prince, and the total abolition of the Jewish sacrifices. In the four following verses he enters into the particulars of this most important determination, and leaves them with Daniel for his comfort, who has left them to the Church of God for the confirmation of its faith, and a testimony to the truth of Divine revelation. They contain the fullest confirmation of Christianity, and a complete refutation of the Jewish cavils and blasphemies on this subject.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of all the writers I have consulted on this most noble prophecy, Dean Prideaux appears to me the most clear and satisfactory. I shall therefore follow his method in my explanation, and often borrow his words.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Seventy weeks are determined - The Jews had Sabbatic years, Leviticus 25:8[/FONT], by which their years were divided into weeks of years, as in this important prophecy, each week containing seven years. The seventy weeks therefore here spoken of amount to four hundred and ninety years.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John Calvin[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]According to their view, the seventy weeks began at the destruction of the former Temple, and closed at the overthrow of the second. In one point they agree with us, — in considering the Prophet to reckon the weeks not by days but by years, as in Leviticus. (Leviticus 25:8[/FONT].) There is no difference between us and the Jews in numbering the years; they confess the number of years to be 490, but disagree with us entirely as to the close of the prophecy. .
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John Gill[/FONT]
Verse 24
[FONT=&quot]Seventy weeks[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city[/FONT][FONT=&quot],..... Or, "concerning thy people, and concerning thy holy city"F19; that is, such a space of time is fixed upon; "cut out"F20, as the word signifies; or appointed of God for the accomplishment of certain events, relative to the temporal good of the city and people of the Jews; as the rebuilding of their city and temple; the continuance of them as a people, and of their city; the coming of the Messiah to them, to obtain spiritual blessings for them, and for all the people of God; who also were Daniel's people and city in a spiritual sense, to which he belonged; and likewise what was relative to the utter ruin and destruction of the Jews as a people, and of their city: and this space of "seventy" weeks is not to be understood of weeks of days; which is too short a time for the fulfilment of so many events as are mentioned; nor were they fulfilled within such a space of time; but of weeks of years, and make up four hundred and ninety years; within which time, beginning from a date after mentioned, all the things prophesied of were accomplished; and this way of reckoning of years by days is not unusual in the sacred writings; see Genesis 29:27[/FONT]. The verb used is singular, and, joined with the noun plural, shows that every week was cut out and appointed for some event or another; and the word, as it signifies "to cut", aptly expresses the division, or section of these weeks into distinct periods, as seven, sixty two, and one. The first events mentioned are spiritual ones, and are not ascribed to any particular period; but are what should be done within this compass of time in general, and were done toward the close of it; and are first observed because of the greatest importance, and are as follow:

 

[DHK]

Regarding the 1260 years of dark ages style persecution of the saints - when both the OT and NT were fully in place - as we find that time predicted in Dan 7, predicted in Rev 11, 12, 13 etc

A fanciful interpretation with no biblical basis. There have been more Christians martyred for their faith in the 20th century than all other centuries combined and that rate has only accelerated in the 21st century. Your interpretation doesn't make sense in the light of today's statistic. It is out-dated, and denied contextual and historical interpretation.

Certainly the dark ages of RCC domination and persecution of the saints happen after the two Testaments exist - 538 A.D. - 1798 A.D. ending with the pope taken captive by the French and the Vatican's holy Roman empire abolished

Your interpretation is even worse then the Preterist interpretation that says that all the prophesies of Matthew 24 and 25 have already been fulfilled, even the Coming of Christ, and were fulfilled by 70 A.D. Christ came then, (albeit it was a spiritual coming) and we are now in the millennial kingdom, Christ ruling from His throne (in heaven). The tribulation took place when Titus ransacked Jerusalem. All those things took place then.
Maybe they have a better case then you do.

During that 1260 years - it is the core of Christendom that is captive and captured by the RCC - not surprising that the Bible "noticed".

Who is captive now? Have you traveled to Islamic nations lately where Christians are being martyred simply because they are Christian? Do you know what is happening in this world today?

But the witness of the Bible during the 1260 years was under conditions of "sackcloth and ashes" according to the Bible.

And who are the witnesses today?
There are some. Shall we pick out two and name them for you.

 

[BobRyan]

The 70 weeks of Dan 9 cannot be made into 490 years unless you take each day in those weeks and make it a solar year. Again - just a fact that is accepted by all.



What is the "other unit" in 70 weeks that numbers 490???

I think this one is pretty hard to get around.

===============================

[FONT=&quot]
Methodists

Adam Clarke's commentary published in 1831 supports the interpretation that the little horn is Papal Rome by this comment "Among Protestant writers this is considered to be the popedom."[15]
He stated that the 1260-year period should commence in 755, the year Pepin the Short actually invaded Lombard territory, resulting in the Pope's elevation from a subject of the Byzantine Empire to an independent head of state.[16] The Donation of Pepin, which first occurred in 754 and again in 756 gave to the Pope temporal power of the Papal States. His time line, which began in 755 will end in 2015. But his introductory comments on Daniel 7 added 756 as an alternative commencement date [17] Based on this, commentators anticipate the end of the Papacy in 2016:
“As the date of the prevalence and reign of antichrist must, according to the principles here laid down, be fixed at A.D. 756, therefore the end of this period of his reign must be A.D. 756 added to 1260; equal to 2016, the year of the Christian era set by infinite wisdom for this long-prayed-for event. Amen and amen!" [18][19]

History

This view was recognized by the Jews[5] as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church.[6] The day-year principle was first used in Christian exposition in 380 AD by Tychonius, who interpreted the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9 as three and a half years, writing 'three days and a half; that is, three years and six months' ('dies tres et dimidium; id est annos tres et menses sex').[7] In the 5th century Faustus of Riez gave the same interpretation of Revelation 11:9, writing 'three and a half days which correspond to three years and six months' ('Tres et dimidius dies tribus annis et sex mensibus respondent),[8] and in c. 550 Primasius also gave the same interpretation, writing 'it is possible to understand the three days and a half as three years and six months' ('Tres dies et dimidium possumus intelligere tres annos et sex menses').[8] The same interpretation of Revelation 11:9 was given by the later Christian expositors Bede (730 AD), as well as Anspert, Arethas, Haymo[disambiguation needed], and Berengaud (all of the ninth century).[8] Primasius appears to have been the first to appeal directly to previous Biblical passages in order to substantiate the principle, referring to Numbers 14:34 in support of his interpretation of the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9

.[9] Haymo and Bruno Astensis "justify it by the parallel case of Ezekiel lying on his side 390 days, to signify 390 years ; — i. e. a day for a year. — ".[10] Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians.[11][12][13]

Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards,[14] George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton as exponents of this school.[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-year_principle[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –

Dan 7:25
Until a time and times and the dividing of time.
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.
If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.

hint - 1798

Jamieson Fausset Brown
Dan 7:25

The 1260 years of papal misrule in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by ELLIOTT set at A.D. 529 or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about A.D. 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from A.D. 529.


Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Dan 7:25
a time
That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.
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A fanciful interpretation with no biblical basis. .

I find your logic "illusive" --

The RCC admits that it does not have but 1/3 of the records on who it is they slaughtered in the dark ages - and so 75 million is close to what even they have claimed for that 1260 year period of time.

My argument is that - this was 'noticed' in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I find your logic "illusive" --

The RCC admits that it does not have but 1/3 of the records on who it is they slaughtered in the dark ages - and so 75 million is close to what even they have claimed for that 1260 year period of time.

My argument is that - this was 'noticed' in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

But it isn't noticed in the Bible. It is read into the Bible.
Lakeside believes in baptismal regeneration because the Philippian jailer had infants in its household. He believes Peter was in Rome because when he wrote from Babylon, "Babylon" was a code name for Rome.
I can allow the Bible to make it say anything I want it to when I read into it things that aren't there.
Sure, UFO's landed on Cornelius's house.
Lydia was a seller of purple (true), and she conversed with the aliens from the UFO's from Cornelius that used to come and visit her.
You can't argue with me, Bob, because you can't disprove what I am saying to be false. You have no evidence to prove me wrong.
(This is your argument).

 

[vooks]

But it isn't noticed in the Bible. It is read into the Bible.
Lakeside believes in baptismal regeneration because the Philippian jailer had infants in its household. He believes Peter was in Rome because when he wrote from Babylon, "Babylon" was a code name for Rome.
I can allow the Bible to make it say anything I want it to when I read into it things that aren't there.
Sure, UFO's landed on Cornelius's house.
Lydia was a seller of purple (true), and she conversed with the aliens from the UFO's from Cornelius that used to come and visit her.
You can't argue with me, Bob, because you can't disprove what I am saying to be false. You have no evidence to prove me wrong.
(This is your argument).

Very few people like Catholics and Mormons dare hold clearly unscriptural positions, everyone else claims they are right and are getting their doctrine from scriptures.

I gave BobRyan a simple task; explain why the two witnesses can't be two men.

Next,Supposing the witnesses prophesying is ready availability of scriptures. Did the same ever resume after the resurrection and ascension?

And finally, what is the ESSENCE of ascension in the narrative? What literal activity coincides with ascension?

 

[BobRyan]

But it isn't noticed in the Bible. It is read into the Bible.

Those who know the Bible and the Historicist day-for-year model of the Protestant Reformation - see that in both Rev 12 and in Dan 7 the dark ages - persecuting the saints for over 1000 years - more than 50 million slain - gets "noticed" as taking place after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (Dan 7) , after the ascension of Christ (Rev 12)

 

[Protestant]

Those who know the Bible and the Historicist day-for-year model of the Protestant Reformation - see that in both Rev 12 and in Dan 7 the dark ages - persecuting the saints for over 1000 years - more than 50 million slain - gets "noticed" as taking place after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (Dan 7) , after the ascension of Christ (Rev 12)

It doesn’t take a genius to understand how the Day-Year Principle was the standard in Apocalyptic Interpretation by the greatest minds in Christianity since the Apostles.

Even the Dispensationalist Messianic Jews for Jesus understand the principle when interpreting Daniel’s seventy sevens prophecy:

Gabriel's prophecy to Daniel began with the words, "Seventy sevens are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city…"
Many English versions have translated the phrase to read "seventy weeks." But this translation is not totally accurate and has caused some confusion about the meaning of the passage. [See citation below which substantiates interpreting 'sevens' as 'weeks of seven days.']Most Jews know the Hebrew for "weeks" because of the observance of the Feast of Weeks, and that Hebrew word is shavuot. However, the word that appears in the Hebrew text is shavuim, which means "sevens." The word refers to a "seven" of anything, and the context determines the content of the seven.

Here it is obvious Daniel had been thinking in terms of years—specifically the 70 years of captivity. Daniel had assumed that the captivity would end after 70 years and that the kingdom would be established after 70 years. But here Gabriel was using a play upon words in the Hebrew text, pointing out that insofar as Messiah's kingdom was concerned, it was not "70 years," but "70 sevens of years," a total of 490 years (70 times seven).....................

The 70 sevens are divided into three separate units—seven sevens, 62 sevens and one seven. During the first time period (49 years) Jerusalem would be "built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times." The second block of time (62 sevens, a total of 434 years) immediately followed the first for a total of 69 sevens, or 483 years.

It is at this point that we are told what the ending point is of the 69 sevens: "unto Messiah the Prince." As clearly as Daniel could have stated it, he taught that 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem had been issued, Messiah would be here on earth. http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/v05-n01/timetable

The Feast of Weeks is recognized by the Jews as comprising 49 days or 7 weeks of 7 days each which equal 7 sevens:

Shavu'ot, the Festival of Weeks, is the second of the three major festivals with both historical and agricultural significance (the other two are Passover and Sukkot). Agriculturally, it commemorates the time when the first fruits were harvested and brought to the Temple, and is known as Hag ha-Bikkurim (the Festival of the First Fruits). Historically, it celebrates the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, and is also known as Hag Matan Torateinu (the Festival of the Giving of Our Torah).

The period from Passover to Shavu'ot is a time of great anticipation. We count each of the days from the second day of Passover to the day before Shavu'ot, 49 days or 7 full weeks, hence the name of the festival. http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayc.htm

Thus, 70 sevens = literally 490 days.

However, in order to substantiate the prophecy as fulfilled by the 1st advent of Christ, Christians have utilized the Day-Year Principle which has Scriptural proof as its foundation.

Numbers 14:34: After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4:6: And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

The Rapture Ready Futurist Dispensationalists on this board disdain Church history and have no qualms trampling down the ‘irrelevant’ bloody testimony of the innumerable martyrs and persecuted Christians throughout the previous Millennium, all of whom identified Roman Catholic Mystery Babylon and the Papal Antichrist.

Instead, the Futurists prefer to stake their reputations on absurd fairy tales, setting aside common sense, demanding we believe their false prophets’’ prognostications which are always just a heartbeat away from actually coming to pass.

“Trust me” the false prophet says. “I can see into the future as no man before me could. My interpretation is true, though it hasn’t one shred of reality in the world of recorded history.”

 

[BobRyan]

Those who know the Bible and the Historicist day-for-year model of the Protestant Reformation - see that in both Rev 12 and in Dan 7 the dark ages - persecuting the saints for over 1000 years - more than 50 million slain - gets "noticed" as taking place after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (Dan 7) , after the ascension of Christ (Rev 12)

It doesn’t take a genius to understand how the Day-Year Principle was the standard in Apocalyptic Interpretation by the greatest minds in Christianity since the Apostles.

Even the Dispensationalist Messianic Jews for Jesus understand the principle when interpreting Daniel’s seventy sevens prophecy:

The Feast of Weeks is recognized by the Jews as comprising 49 days or 7 weeks of 7 days each which equal 7 sevens:

Thus, 70 sevens = literally 490 days.

However, in order to substantiate the prophecy as fulfilled by the 1st advent of Christ, Christians have utilized the Day-Year Principle which has Scriptural proof as its foundation.

Numbers 14:34: After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4:6: And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Amen!

It is hard to fully appreciate the Protestant Reformation and break from the RCC - and still deny their historicist model of prophetic interpretation.

The Rapture Ready Futurist Dispensationalists on this board disdain Church history and have no qualms trampling down the ‘irrelevant’ bloody testimony of the innumerable martyrs and persecuted Christians throughout the previous Millennium, all of whom identified Roman Catholic Mystery Babylon and the Papal Antichrist.

And yet - so also does the "Baptist Confession of Faith" identify the RCC in that same way --

I find it odd that they would be at war even with themselves as they oppose the Protestant Reformation stand on Bible prophecy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Amen!

It is hard to fully appreciate the Protestant Reformation and break from the RCC - and still deny their historicist model of prophetic interpretation.




in Christ,

Bob

Which one? The Protestants? Or Catholics?




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You appear to be talking about "yourself" since you brought Darby into this thread -- not sure why you are doing it though? Self deprecating humor maybe??

Oh no wait! you mean someone else is touting Darby -- I think I missed that conversation -- wherever it is ...

And you don't know how lucky you are...to have missed it, lol.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

What is the "other unit" in 70 weeks that numbers 490???

I think this one is pretty hard to get around.

I agree, but here you are...

lol

The other unit is "seven," Bob.

You call them days when there is no day in there. only years.

Day never once enters into the Prophecy, thus defeating the model.

And when we see the rest of Prophecy agree that Antichrist ceases Judaism and it's Service in the midst of the Seventieth Week...it should become more than clear.

Antichrist is given forty two months, no way to incorporate days into that either, at least not in a manner of conversion, because it would have to be forty two times four (four sevens in a month) which brings us sixty eight.



And sorry, out of time, so just taking a few potshots.

Duck! And I hope to see you soon, my friend.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

Those who know the Bible and the Historicist day-for-year model of the Protestant Reformation - see that in both Rev 12 and in Dan 7 the dark ages - persecuting the saints for over 1000 years - more than 50 million slain - gets "noticed" as taking place after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (Dan 7) , after the ascension of Christ (Rev 12)

Apparently you don't know the Bible, but you certainly know how to read into the Bible. Your wild assertions don't match what the Bible says, not even close!
There is no "persecuting saint for 1000 years called the dark ages in Daniel 7." That is wild eisegesis on your part, just read into it anything you want.
"More than 50 million get slain. Right! But the scriptures don't say that. You do.
Read into the scriptures anything you want!

Prove me wrong Bob. I dare you!

I can allow the Bible to make it say anything I want it to when I read into it things that aren't there.
Sure, UFO's landed on Cornelius's house.
Lydia was a seller of purple (true), and she conversed with the aliens from the UFO's from Cornelius that used to come and visit her.
You can't argue with me, Bob, because you can't disprove what I am saying to be false. You have no evidence to prove me wrong.
(This is your argument).

And this is all from the same Bible you use.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 7 -

Times Time and 1/2 time. 3.5 years --> 42 months --> 1260 apocalyptic days.

1260 years.

Rev 11, 12, 13 includes all of that - so we know they are all the same thing - as your own source - Robertson points out.



[FONT=&quot]DHK quotes Robertson
. Forty and two months (mênas tesserakonta kai duo). Accusative of extent of time. This period in Da 7:25; 12:7. It occurs in three forms in the Apocalypse (forty-two months, here and Re 13:5; 1260 days, Re 11:3; 12:6; time, times and half a time or 3 1/2 years, Re 12:14 and so in Daniel). [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]
Methodists

Adam Clarke's commentary published in 1831 supports the interpretation that the little horn is Papal Rome by this comment "Among Protestant writers this is considered to be the popedom."[15]
He stated that the 1260-year period should commence in 755, the year Pepin the Short actually invaded Lombard territory, resulting in the Pope's elevation from a subject of the Byzantine Empire to an independent head of state.[16] The Donation of Pepin, which first occurred in 754 and again in 756 gave to the Pope temporal power of the Papal States. His time line, which began in 755 will end in 2015. But his introductory comments on Daniel 7 added 756 as an alternative commencement date [17] Based on this, commentators anticipate the end of the Papacy in 2016:
“As the date of the prevalence and reign of antichrist must, according to the principles here laid down, be fixed at A.D. 756, therefore the end of this period of his reign must be A.D. 756 added to 1260; equal to 2016, the year of the Christian era set by infinite wisdom for this long-prayed-for event. Amen and amen!" [18][19]

History

This view was recognized by the Jews[5] as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church.[6] The day-year principle was first used in Christian exposition in 380 AD by Tychonius, who interpreted the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9 as three and a half years, writing 'three days and a half; that is, three years and six months' ('dies tres et dimidium; id est annos tres et menses sex').[7] In the 5th century Faustus of Riez gave the same interpretation of Revelation 11:9, writing 'three and a half days which correspond to three years and six months' ('Tres et dimidius dies tribus annis et sex mensibus respondent),[8] and in c. 550 Primasius also gave the same interpretation, writing 'it is possible to understand the three days and a half as three years and six months' ('Tres dies et dimidium possumus intelligere tres annos et sex menses').[8] The same interpretation of Revelation 11:9 was given by the later Christian expositors Bede (730 AD), as well as Anspert, Arethas, Haymo[disambiguation needed], and Berengaud (all of the ninth century).[8] Primasius appears to have been the first to appeal directly to previous Biblical passages in order to substantiate the principle, referring to Numbers 14:34 in support of his interpretation of the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9

.[9] Haymo and Bruno Astensis "justify it by the parallel case of Ezekiel lying on his side 390 days, to signify 390 years ; — i. e. a day for a year. — ".[10] Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians.[11][12][13]

Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards,[14] George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton as exponents of this school.[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-year_principle[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –

Dan 7:25
Until a time and times and the dividing of time.
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.
If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.

hint - 1798

Jamieson Fausset Brown
Dan 7:25

The 1260 years of papal misrule in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by ELLIOTT set at A.D. 529 or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about A.D. 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from A.D. 529.


Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Dan 7:25
a time
That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.
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[DHK]

[FONT=&quot]DHK quotes Robertson
. Forty and two months (mênas tesserakonta kai duo). Accusative of extent of time. This period in Da 7:25; 12:7. It occurs in three forms in the Apocalypse (forty-two months, here and Re 13:5; 1260 days, Re 11:3; 12:6; time, times and half a time or 3 1/2 years, Re 12:14 and so in Daniel). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

The Tribulation Period is a period of seven years. We all know that.
It is a period of two periods of 42 months, two periods of 1260 days, two halves of 3 1/2 years. They make up the seven year period of the last week of Daniel 9:24-27.
Simple math is very easy here with a little common sense as well.
But you like to read into scripture that which is not there.

Daniel's seventh week is the Tribulation Period. It is obvious what these time periods refer to.

 

[BobRyan]

The Tribulation Period is a period of seven years. We all know that.

That is not actually true.

Some imagine it - but it is not true.

Daniel's seventh week is the Tribulation Period.

That is also not true.

What is true is that Dan 9 starts with the 70 years of Jeremiah's prophecy and ends with the apocalyptic 70weeks (490 apocalyptic days - so 490 years).

Irrefutable.

Also irrefutable is that all Bible timelines are contiguous.

in Christ,

Bob