Why don't Baptists believe Acts 2:38 literally?

[Wittenberger]

Study further.
Perhaps Paul's definition of a legalist and your definition are different. If so, then you are still on the wrong side of the fence Biblically.

The mode of baptism matters greatly. As I have pointed out the EOC still immerses. They have no choice. They understand what the word "baptidzo" means. It means to immerse, not sprinkle or immerse. It has only that one definition. The NT was written in Greek. Why would a Greek speaking church still immerse? Because that is what the word means. Every time they read that word they read "immerse," and thus they do. They don't have any other choice but to obey. You can't substitute sprinkle and pour for immerse. It doesn't work.

It didn't work for Adoniram Judson either. He was America's first foreign missionary, but could read Greek fluently. Supported by the Congregational Church of America he set out with plans to help William Carey. While crossing the Atlantic he was reading his NT in the Greek. He could not get away from this fact and teaching that baptism is by immersion for that is what the word means. He became convicted, wrote back to the Congregational Church, and told him he must change his convictions on the matter of baptism. He ended in India with no support. Ultimately he ended being the first missionary to Burma.

The argument has been put forth that baptism is a pledge. I don't buy into that. Baptism is symbolic. It is purely symbolic. What does baptism do for a person? It gets them wet. Those particles of hydrogen and oxygen are not supernaturally going to make you more holy, give you more grace, regenerate you, or any of the such. Those who believe those things are superstitious, as superstitious as the Hindus in India who believe that washing in "the holy waters of the Inudus River" will wash away their sins. The RCC teaching is no different. It is just as superstitious. It teaches the same thing.

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--Scrub harder Jeremiah mocks; maybe you will be able to wash away your sin. No. Frankly he says your sin is marked before me! and "baptism" even with soap cannot wash it away. What a mockery!

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
--Paul was writing to believers. He was writing to those who had put their faith and trust in Christ. Then those same ones, after salvation were baptized.
Verse four says: We are buried by baptism into death. Christ died. We (in picture must die). We die to our old life of sin. Christ was buried. We go under the water completely as Christ was completely buried. When the preacher holds you under the water he doesn't leave you there. You don't drown.
"Like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Coming out of the water symbolizes our newness of life in Christ. It is a new life. Old things have passed away behold all things are become new.

Only baptism by immersion can fulfill this picture.
Only baptism by immersion can also give the symbolic picture of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Here is the true meaning of baptism. It is not simply a pledge or public profession. If it were, who was the Ethiopian Eunuch publicly proclaiming his faith to?
No, it was the first step of obedience in the Christian life that symbolized the Christians death to his old life and a walk in newness of life in Christ.
We do it because we are commanded to by Christ.
What does it do "for" us? It makes us wet.

So just to be clear, your view of baptism is this:

Baptism is something God has commanded all new Christian converts to do. However, we have no idea what it's purpose is.

We all agree that baptism is a visible, physical symbol of an internal, spiritual act accomplished by God.

Correct?

 

[DHK]

So just to be clear, your view of baptism is this:

Baptism is something God has commanded all new Christian converts to do. However, we have no idea what it's purpose is.

We all agree that baptism is a visible, physical symbol of an internal, spiritual act accomplished by God.

Correct?

No, I did not say that. If you are pretending to quote my words then retract your statement. I gave you its purpose. Its purpose is twofold.
1. It is a command of Christ. That is purposeful enough.
2. It is symbolic in its meaning. It has great meaning.

Therefore, yes, we do have a very good idea of what its purpose is.

 

[Wittenberger]

No, I did not say that. If you are pretending to quote my words then retract your statement. I gave you its purpose. Its purpose is twofold.
1. It is a command of Christ. That is purposeful enough.
2. It is symbolic in its meaning. It has great meaning.

Therefore, yes, we do have a very good idea of what its purpose is.

I'm not understanding. I am not being sarcastic.

So you are saying that the only purpose of baptism is to fulfill a command of God? Correct?

In your view, the only thing baptism DOES is get us wet.

--God does not act in baptism to do something to us.
--We are not acting in baptism to make a pledge or a profession of faith.

Our act of baptism is solely to fulfill a command. The act itself is a picture of what happens to us spiritually in salvation, but the act of baptism DOES nothing.

Do I understand you correctly?

 

[DHK]

I'm not understanding. I am not being sarcastic.

So you are saying that the only purpose of baptism is to fulfill a command of God? Correct?

In your view, the only thing baptism DOES is get us wet.

--God does not act in baptism to do something to us.
--We are not acting in baptism to make a pledge or a profession of faith.

Our act of baptism is solely to fulfill a command. The act itself is a picture of what happens to us spiritually in salvation, but the act of baptism DOES nothing.

Do I understand you correctly?

Yes. What can getting wet possibly accomplish?
Will it save you? No.
Will it make you more holy? No.
What will being dunked or sprinkled with two atoms of hydrogen for every atom of oxygen possibly do for you except get you wet? It is simply H20. You are being as superstitious as the Hindus in India. Water does not wash away sin; only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that!

 

[Moriah]

Yes. What can getting wet possibly accomplish?
Will it save you? No.
Will it make you more holy? No.
What will being dunked or sprinkled with two atoms of hydrogen for every atom of oxygen possibly do for you except get you wet? It is simply H20. You are being as superstitious as the Hindus in India. Water does not wash away sin; only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that!

Getting wet can accomplish much.

It can help save you.

It can help make you holy.

Read in the Old Testament how important pledges are.

Getting water baptized is a pledge to God. People who fear God, they know that they must not delay in fulfilling their promises to God.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

And I agree with DHK. I also recommend [SIZE=-0]Baptism: Studies in the Original Christian Baptism, its History and Conflicts, its Relation to a State or National Church and its Significance for the Present Time[/SIZE] by Johannes Warns. I bought mine back in college. I found volumes for sale at:

http://used.addall.com/Used/

with "Johannes Warns" in the Author field and "Baptism" in the Title field.

Herr Dr. Professor Warns also wrote the basic NT Greek grammar. AFAIK, it's the German equivalent of Machen or Dana and Mantey.

Remember folks, since the mid 1600s, forests of trees and tons of rags have given themselves to the books written on either side of this question. So, the question will not be resolved here to either side's satisfaction.

SNIP
Its purpose is twofold.
1. It is a command of Christ. That is purposeful enough.
2. It is symbolic in its meaning. It has great meaning.

Therefore, yes, we do have a very good idea of what its purpose is.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Please find a quote of any of the church fathers who state about baptism what you have just stated.

If you can prove to me that the early Christians in the first three centuries after Christ believed this, I will convert today!

Maybe you should convert to Roman Catholicism since both you and they put traditions of men above the scriptures.

Irenaeus claimed that he had received an apostolic tradition that Jesus was forty to fifty years old, contradicting the scriptural record.

There was widespread acceptance of the belief that salvation could be lost without any possibility of regaining it if particular sins were committed. Such a view was advocated by Hermas, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Hippolytus, for example.

"Woman is the root of all evil." - St Jerome (c. 320-420)

"We Christians marry only to produce children." - Justin Martyr (c. 100–165)

If you are committed to both the teaching of the Bible and the church fathers, which do you go by when you find they don't agree? And they don't agree in a lot of cases!

 

[Moriah]

And I agree with DHK. I also recommend [SIZE=-0]Baptism:

Since you are the Administrator, and so hard to have correspondence with, would you please have DHK correct the falseness he said about me in this thread:

[URL="http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1882330#post1882330"]http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1882330#post1882330

I did not ever say God does not know everyone's heart.

DHK made that false statement even though I corrected him. He then made the false statement again then closed the thread.

 

[Wittenberger]

Yes. What can getting wet possibly accomplish?
Will it save you? No.
Will it make you more holy? No.
What will being dunked or sprinkled with two atoms of hydrogen for every atom of oxygen possibly do for you except get you wet? It is simply H20. You are being as superstitious as the Hindus in India. Water does not wash away sin; only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that!

Yes, I understand your low opinion of "baptismal regeneration" but I want to confirm that you believe that...

Baptism has no other purpose other than to fulfill a command of God AND it is a pretty picture of our spiritual cleansing.

 

[Amy.G]

"Woman is the root of all evil." - St Jerome (c. 320-420)

I'm sorry but you have attributed that quote to the wrong person. It was Adam who said that. :laugh::laugh:

(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[Wittenberger]

Maybe you should convert to Roman Catholicism since both you and they put traditions of men above the scriptures.

Irenaeus claimed that he had received an apostolic tradition that Jesus was forty to fifty years old, contradicting the scriptural record.

There was widespread acceptance of the belief that salvation could be lost without any possibility of regaining it if particular sins were committed. Such a view was advocated by Hermas, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Hippolytus, for example.

"Woman is the root of all evil." - St Jerome (c. 320-420)

"We Christians marry only to produce children." - Justin Martyr (c. 100–165)

If you are committed to both the teaching of the Bible and the church fathers, which do you go by when you find they don't agree? And they don't agree in a lot of cases!

I thought you were getting off this website, brother.

It becomes addicting, doesn't it?

 

[DHK]

Yes, I understand your low opinion of "baptismal regeneration" but I want to confirm that you believe that...

Baptism has no other purpose other than to fulfill a command of God AND it is a pretty picture of our spiritual cleansing.

A command of God,
and symbolic of:
1. our death to our old life of sin, and our resurrection to a new life in Christ.
2. as well as the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

I have not read all the posts, so please forgive if this duplicates other posts.

Acts 8:36-38

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Here is a clear progression. The eunuch says, here's water, why can't I be baptized.

Philip says, if you believe, okay.
The eunuch says I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Philip says, good answer, and baptized him.

First an espression of faith in Jesus; next, baptism.

Now, go find Acts 16:31 where Paul says believe and be saved.

Then look at v 33 Then, Paul baptized them all.

 

[Wittenberger]

A command of God,
and symbolic of:
1. our death to our old life of sin, and our resurrection to a new life in Christ.
2. as well as the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

If all baptism is, is a fulfillment of a command to make a pretty (symbolic) picture, why does God seem to place so much emphasis on it, especially in the Great Commission?

The Great Commission tells us to baptize all nations. It says nothing about having them make a decision to ask Jesus into their hearts in a born again experience.

So right before Jesus left earth and went up to heaven, he gave his final instructions, and the thing he emphasized most was having all new converts make a display of a symbolic, pretty picture, not making a personal decision for him.

Very odd.

 

[Moriah]

If all baptism is, is a fulfillment of a command to make a pretty (symbolic) picture, why does God seem to place so much emphasis on it, especially in the Great Commission?

The Great Commission tells us to baptize all nations. It says nothing about having them make a decision to ask Jesus into their hearts in a born again experience.

So right before Jesus left earth and went up to heaven, he gave his final instructions, and the thing he emphasized most was having all new converts make a display of a symbolic, pretty picture, not making a personal decision for him.

Very odd.

A pledge to God is a serious matter.
Some here do not give it the importance that it is.

 

[Wittenberger]

I have not read all the posts, so please forgive if this duplicates other posts.

Acts 8:36-38

Here is a clear progression. The eunuch says, here's water, why can't I be baptized.

Philip says, if you believe, okay.
The eunuch says I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Philip says, good answer, and baptized him.

First an espression of faith in Jesus; next, baptism.

Now, go find Acts 16:31 where Paul says believe and be saved.

Then look at v 33 Then, Paul baptized them all.

Excellent! A new Baptist/evangelical joining the discussion.

Maybe you know the answer to this:

Is there any historical record that shows that the early Christians in the first centuries after Christ believed that baptism was ONLY one of the following:

1. a public profession of faith
2. a beautiful , symbolic display that has no other purpose than to be a fulfillment of a God-given command.

 

[DHK]

A pledge to God is a serious matter.
Some here do not give it the importance that it is.

Nowhere does it say baptism is a pledge.
It is purely symbolic.

 

[DHK]

If all baptism is, is a fulfillment of a command to make a pretty (symbolic) picture, why does God seem to place so much emphasis on it, especially in the Great Commission?

Because it is an important command. Isn't that simple enough.

The Great Commission tells us to baptize all nations. It says nothing about having them make a decision to ask Jesus into their hearts in a born again experience.

The command goes like this.
Having gone into all the world --a participial phrase defining a verb.
Disciple all nations--the primary verb of the command. Discipling involves teaching and then leading one to the Lord.
--baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--another participial phrase defining "disciple"
--teaching them all things--another participial phrase defining disciple.

There is the Great Commission. Everything revolves around one command: "Disciple." The first step of obedience is to be baptized. Then as noted teaching is required--teaching them all things that I have taught you. The command in the Great Commission is one of discipleship, not just simple evangelism.

So right before Jesus left earth and went up to heaven, he gave his final instructions, and the thing he emphasized most was having all new converts make a display of a symbolic, pretty picture, not making a personal decision for him.

Very odd.

You have a very odd picture in your mind don't you.

Here is the command as given in Mat.28:18,20 in the ASV

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

 

[Moriah]

Nowhere does it say baptism is a pledge.
It is purely symbolic.

As for you saying water baptism is not a pledge, it is a pledge, a promise, or if you would like the ESV translation, water baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. No matter what translation you use, it is what it is, it is a pledge to God.

New International Version (©1984)
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I could not care less what you think about the NIV.

English Standard Version(©2001)
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Water baptism is something the believer does; water baptism is more dependent upon the believer than the baptizer, as evident is in the fact that John the Baptist baptized Jesus.

Again, water baptism is something centered on the believer.

You only say what some denominations say about water baptism, that it is symbolic, but you can only repeat what you have been told by other men, not considering what the symbol means. You do not seem to be able to explain any further.

Go ahead and try to explain more what the symbol means. Try to explain it without saying it is a vow, a pledge, a promise, a commitment to God that you are dying with Jesus.

Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Our old nature is to die and we are to be “buried with Him through baptism into death.” We are buried with the water, and raised out of the water, raised to “walk in newness of life” (live like Jesus).

Picture how baptism looks…the believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world; so now standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

Romans explain this perfectly.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[carpro]

"then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

My Baptists friends tell me that they believe that this verse was incorrectly translated by the King James translators. The "for" in that verse should really be "because of". Do most Baptists believe this?

I have looked at numerous other English translations of the Bible (ESV, New King James, and others), but they all translate the Greek word "eis" as "for" not "because of".

Even Luther's German translation translates that word as "to".

How do Baptists explain this?

To me, it's simple.

It's inconsistent with the rest of the Bible. If you believe it, even John 3:16 would have no meaning. Grace would not be needed.

To base salvation on only one verse and one act just won't hold water. Excuse the pun.