LOL, you are now desperately looking for minute semantics as your escape from what the text clearly tells you. Any English version (outside of perhaps the Mormons and JWs) tells you that you are saved by grace alone. You received faith by God's gracious gift alone. Your righteousness is found with Christ alone. Twist all you want and God's word remains clear. No matter how you slice and dice, apart from God you are wretchedly unsaved and irredeemable. Only in Christ are you made righteous and redeemed. There is no other way. On this I take my stand.
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Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture
- Thread starter JD731
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Maybe you stand on admitting you refuse to read the words of the scripture but that kind of philosophy is unbecoming to anyone. Faith is never a gift in scripture as it pertains to salvation and insisting that it does without examining the evidence I have given you is called willful ignorance.
My only conclusion to what you have written is that you don't believe God saved you by grace.
It's all from God and nothing from you.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
(Hebrews 12:2)
We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne.
How Is Faith a Gift? | Ligonier Ministries
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@taisto you just proved the case in your post. God saved us by His grace when you believed. Not so that you would believe.
Christ Jesus is the author, or pioneer, of our faith in the sense that He has provided us with the only perfect example of what the life of faith is like. He is also the finisher of our faith as an example of faith / confidence in God.
God saved you, how?
Was it by your belief?
What does the text actually say?
How did God save you? What does that text actually say?
"God saved you by his grace"
In fact, the text tells you this twice. In verses 4-5 and in verses 8-9.
If you generated your own belief, then you can pay yourself on the back for the great effort you made that caused God to save you.
@Silverhair, are you looking for a hearty slap on the back from God for your great effort that caused Him to love you so much? Is that what you're looking for?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Brother Glen
The parable of the tares and wheat in Mat 13 is a description of this entire age from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ until his return to harvest the wheat.
Look at it with me; It is the second of 7 mysteries of the kingdom of heaven parables in this chapter;
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
There was a break after the 4th parable and a change of locations from the seashore to Peter's house. It was at this time the disciples asked for the meaning of the parable of the tares and wheat.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
This teaches us that one must have a close relationship with Jesus for him to teach us his mysteries. We must be where he is at.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (aion = age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (aion = age).
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Here one can learn the art of comparison.
In the first parable the seed is the words that are sown in the field (world) that produces a crop.
In the second parable the good seed is the wheat that the seed produces. Children are birthed into the kingdom.
It was almost immediately apparent that someone had sown tares, children of the wicked one, into the field.
The solution of the sower is to let both grow in the field until the harvest.
When harvest time comes he will send the reapers to first gather the tares into bundles (cults, isms, religions, denominations, systems of theology) so they can be burned
But, gather the wheat into my barn.
Obviously the tares are prepared for burning but it will occur after the wheat is in the barn.
The burning and the end of the tares is the great tribulation that is symbolized by a great fire. Read Re 18 now.
The day of the Lord is the beginning of the great tribulation. It is the beginning of the 7th one thousand year day of the week of one thousand year days before the eighth day, the day of God, the eternal day. The Lord will purify the earth to begin the day and rule as King over the nations that are left. It is his sabbath rest and the world is at peace all day until the end of it.
His coming for the wheat is in verse 40 before the tares are cast into the fire.
The bundles of the tares are then cast into the furnace of fire with all things that offend God.
Read Matt 24 in light of verses 41-43.
There are 12 mysteries of the kingdom of heaven parables and 7 of them are in Matt 13. They give the characteristics and the prophesies of this entire age. This age is called by Paul, a present evil age.
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world (aion = age), according to the will of God and our Father:
The scriptures teach the rapture of the church everywhere.
I admit that I see through a glass darkly and some things I say might need tweaking as I continue to learn and receive light. If someone corrects me with sensible, contextual, scriptural, logical, and faithful words, I will receive it.
Look at it with me; It is the second of 7 mysteries of the kingdom of heaven parables in this chapter;
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
There was a break after the 4th parable and a change of locations from the seashore to Peter's house. It was at this time the disciples asked for the meaning of the parable of the tares and wheat.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
This teaches us that one must have a close relationship with Jesus for him to teach us his mysteries. We must be where he is at.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (aion = age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (aion = age).
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Here one can learn the art of comparison.
In the first parable the seed is the words that are sown in the field (world) that produces a crop.
In the second parable the good seed is the wheat that the seed produces. Children are birthed into the kingdom.
It was almost immediately apparent that someone had sown tares, children of the wicked one, into the field.
The solution of the sower is to let both grow in the field until the harvest.
When harvest time comes he will send the reapers to first gather the tares into bundles (cults, isms, religions, denominations, systems of theology) so they can be burned
But, gather the wheat into my barn.
Obviously the tares are prepared for burning but it will occur after the wheat is in the barn.
The burning and the end of the tares is the great tribulation that is symbolized by a great fire. Read Re 18 now.
The day of the Lord is the beginning of the great tribulation. It is the beginning of the 7th one thousand year day of the week of one thousand year days before the eighth day, the day of God, the eternal day. The Lord will purify the earth to begin the day and rule as King over the nations that are left. It is his sabbath rest and the world is at peace all day until the end of it.
His coming for the wheat is in verse 40 before the tares are cast into the fire.
The bundles of the tares are then cast into the furnace of fire with all things that offend God.
Read Matt 24 in light of verses 41-43.
There are 12 mysteries of the kingdom of heaven parables and 7 of them are in Matt 13. They give the characteristics and the prophesies of this entire age. This age is called by Paul, a present evil age.
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world (aion = age), according to the will of God and our Father:
The scriptures teach the rapture of the church everywhere.
I admit that I see through a glass darkly and some things I say might need tweaking as I continue to learn and receive light. If someone corrects me with sensible, contextual, scriptural, logical, and faithful words, I will receive it.
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In this age there are both the elect and the damned in our churches. Satan has his marked people in among the marked of God. God has told his angels not to bring the sickle until the time when the harvest of the elect is complete (2 Peter 3). Then Revelation 14:15-20 happens, just as the parable of the tares and the wheat tell us.
"Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested. After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle."
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The fact that I have quoted these verses to you before just proves that it is not the bible you believe but yourself. That is so sad that you think you know better than the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Even you should be able to understand that next two verses
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
You really do not have a grasp on scripture do you. I quoted text from your post and you still do not get it.
God saved us by His grace when you believed.
The person has to believe as God does not do it for them, unless your a Calvinist and then you think He did but you can never be sure as according to Calvinism you had nothing to do with it.
God saved you, how?
Was it by your belief?
What does the text actually say?
How did God save you? What does that text actually say?
"God saved you by his grace"
Are you looking for a hearty slap on the back from God for your great effort that caused Him to love you so much? Is that what you're looking for?
How did you, as a spiritually dead man, make yourself believe?
(Ephesians 2:4-6)
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You really need to read more of the bible than your so call proof texts.
Joh 16:8 "And He {the Holy Spirit}, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 1:13 In Him, {Christ Jesus} you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him {Christ Jesus} with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
So it seems that God trusts that those under conviction of their sin and hearing the gospel message can make real choices and can turn and trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your really need to start using a better translation than one written for children which the NLT actually was.
All these verses prove that God saves by grace alone.
The fact that you will not acknowledge God's word on your behalf is very revealing.
And here's your strawman.
This highlights the real problem that is created by those who are always forcing their own private interpretations on the texts of scripture.
This is a parable that is given by Jesus Christ in the format of one of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, which he describes in the parable as a growing season, from seedtime to harvest time. He explains an offensive movement by the devil against the plan he has for the field. He sows tares in the field that looks much like the wheat and it is difficult sometimes to tell the difference. Therefore God advised to let both grow together and before the time of harvest the tares would manifest themselves by lack of fruit. The angels sometime before the harvest will gather them in to bundles with his intentions of burning them when he starts his fire on the earth that will consume all things that offend. They will gather the harvest into his barn before the fire starts and thus the separation of the wheat and tares will be complete.
This age is one of great deception and many who think themselves to be wheat are actually the tares. Time will reveal both. One thing is sure. Those who assign the words of scriptures to meaningless metaphors to fit their adopted systematic theologies are really denying the truth that God is giving in his words. What I see on these boards for some, is everything must begin at the proposition that they are somehow favored of God and special and God is interested in saving them but no one else.Some people would make this parable about the "elect" although God says nothing about election here. Since both of these groups are children in a family, what one can assume is that at some point there was a spiritual birth that has taken place and there is a divide between families..
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Have I said He does not save by grace, NO
Who do you think does the saving in these verses?
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 1:13 In Him, {Christ Jesus} you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him {Christ Jesus} with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
I understand that this is hard for you to grasp from these verses as they do not say "GOD SAVES BY HIS GRACE". Your apparent lack of understanding of scripture is astounding.
To quote you "All these verses prove that God saves by grace alone.
The fact that you will not acknowledge God's word on your behalf is very revealing."
You quote the verses that I posted and say they prove God saves by grace and then say I do not acknowledge that God saves by grace. Do you actually read what you write before you post it. Or can you just not accept that what I posted is true, man has to believe before God saves them by His grace?
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Whats the strawman? You keep using a bible written for children. Is that not true?
It's not true. Your comment is a strawman. It shows me that you have no legitimate argument and cannot defend your position.
To quote the Princess Bride, "You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means."
The verses you quote all support my position and condemn your view. You don't realize this because you don't read the entire Bible. You pick a sentence from one spot and a sentence from another in order to artificially conjure up a humanist philosophy you embrace.
Read all the passages from which you quote a sentence and realize your humanism is contrary to the text.
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