Why free choice is neccessary

[tyndale1946]

Calvinist seem to believe they are nothing but puppets on a string. Some go so far as to say God controls everything even our own sin. Blaming there sin on God. There simply is no such thing as Love with out choice to do so. Love like hate is something you have to choose to do.
MB

You need to take a trip to the potters house... Btw... Who made the puppet?... Brother Glen

 

[MB]

You need to take a trip to the potters house... Btw... Who made the puppet?... Brother Glen

God is not a puppeteer.He does not cause men to sin and you haven't any scripture to prove He controls every aspect of our lives.You may try but most of what it would be is Calvinist thinking. God didn't make any puppets although Calvinist seem to think they are made like puppets with God controlling everything they do and say. Including all the horrible sins that are committed everyday by people. This would make God a sinner worse than man.
MB.

 

[MB]

Right again Kentucky... Brother Glen

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It would do you good to remember this verse when you make the claim the lost have a dead spirit. You will notice John does not say it is the Holy Spirit.That's because it man's spirit.
MB

 

[Dave G]

God is not a puppeteer.He does not cause men to sin and you haven't any scripture to prove He controls every aspect of our lives.

I agree, God does not cause men to sin.
But He can and does control whatever He wishes, including influencing men's minds and actions:

" The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." ( Proverbs 21:1 )
" A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." ( Proverbs 16:9 )

There are two Scriptures right there that prove that God can control men's actions.
There are more if you would like to see them.

You may try but most of what it would be is Calvinist thinking. God didn't make any puppets although Calvinist seem to think they are made like puppets with God controlling everything they do and say.

Again, God is in control.

He can do as He wishes ( Daniel 4:35 ) with men's hearts and minds.
He does not control everything we do and say as men.
He can, however step in and over ride whatever He wishes, whenever He wishes.

Mankind cannot stand against God...because He is God, and we are mere men.

Including all the horrible sins that are committed everyday by people.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." ( James 1:13-15 )

He does not cause men to sin.

This would make God a sinner worse than man.

God, a sinner?
Let God be true, and every man a liar.

"TZADDI. Righteous [art] thou, O LORD, and upright [are] thy judgments." ( Psalms 119:137 )

 

[MB]

I agree, God does not cause men to sin.
But He can and does control whatever He wishes, including influencing men's minds and actions:

" The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." ( Proverbs 21:1 )
" A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." ( Proverbs 16:9 )

There are two Scriptures right there that prove that God can control men's actions.
There are more if you would like to see them.



Again, God is in control.

He can do as He wishes ( Daniel 4:35 ) with men's hearts and minds.
He does not control everything we do and say as men.
He can, however step in and over ride whatever He wishes, whenever He wishes.

Mankind cannot stand against God...because He is God, and we are mere men.



"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." ( James 1:13-15 )

He does not cause men to sin.


God, a sinner?
Let God be true, and every man a liar.

"TZADDI. Righteous [art] thou, O LORD, and upright [are] thy judgments." ( Psalms 119:137 )

God could control men but He doesn't. He is already doing what He likes. Convincing men of Him Self through His word. I believe God gives us choices to make to live eternally or die in sin. It can't be anymore simple than this. The fact that we all still sin proves men still have a choice.
MB

 

[Dave G]

God could control men but He doesn't.

Yes, He does:

"Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21 and he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22 he revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." ( Daniel 2:20-22 )

He is already doing what He likes.

I agree.
Daniel 4:35.

I believe God gives us choices to make to live eternally or die in sin.

I don't.
Scripture states that the choice has already been made and is made every day by men and women who go about their earthly lives with no regard for Him or His ways ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).

It can't be anymore simple than this.

It is simple...but Scripture is very detailed, and it cannot be addressed by one "verse".
The simplicity is in the details.

The fact that we all still sin proves men still have a choice.

I agree.
The fact that the lost sin proves that they are following their corrupt sin nature, and willingly going to it with greediness ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ).
The fact that the saved sin is proof that they are wrestling with the body of sin that they are still dwelling in ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:16-18 ).

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinist seem to believe they are nothing but puppets on a string. Some go so far as to say God controls everything even our own sin. Blaming there sin on God. There simply is no such thing as Love with out choice to do so. Love like hate is something you have to choose to do.
MB

As usual, you show you do not understand Calvinist points of view. We affirm free will and choice.

God could control men but He doesn't.

You have been shown multiple verses to the contrary.

 

[MB]

Yes, He does:

"Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21 and he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22 he revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." ( Daniel 2:20-22 )

Neither of these verses say we have no choice in our destination

I agree.
Daniel 4:35.



I don't.
Scripture states that the choice has already been made and is made every day by men and women who go about their earthly lives with no regard for Him or His ways ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).

A lot of them do but as long as they live they still can change their minds with the Holy Spirit's help

It is simple...but Scripture is very detailed, and it cannot be addressed by one "verse".
The simplicity is in the details.

I realize that but that still means men must also choose to Love God

I agree.
The fact that the lost sin proves that they are following their corrupt sin nature, and willingly going to it with greediness ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ).
The fact that the saved sin is proof that they are wrestling with the body of sin that they are still dwelling in ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:16-18

The Lost sin because of their wickedness. The saved sin because no matter what they do they can't escape the wickedness of their flesh.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Neither of these verses say we have no choice in our destination

Moving the goalposts...That was not the question he was answering. He was answering whether God ever controls our lives. He does. You can't just keep moving the goalposts.

 

[Dave G]

Neither of these verses say we have no choice in our destination

There are no Scriptures that do say that we have a choice.

If you believe that there are, then please list some that tell all men that they have a choice to choose God and to live eternally ( not ones that are addressed to Israel, which was under an earthly covenant with blessings and cursings, that only pertained to this life. )

Remember, the Law was the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
It was never intended to lead to eternal life, because it was temporary ( Hebrews 8:7-13 ) and the blood of bulls and of goats could never take away sin ( Hebrews 10:4 ).


If you can find some that are addressed to Gentiles, and that are addressed to unbelievers, then I will consider them.
But I doubt that you will find even one, because I know of none.

 

[Benjamin]

Neither of these verses say we have no choice in our destination

I'm going to jump in just to say you are correct and my answer to your opponent would be there are no scriptures that state salvation is by special pre-selection such as man's wisdom would teach having missed the point of Progressive Revelation.

Your opponent apparently doesn't understand that there is Only One Gospel – progressively revealed – that all men, as per this Revelation, whether before the cross or after that were saved were saved through the action of faith. The Good News is we now have this ministry that Jesus came to bring hope to all men not a lucky pre-selected few. Very telling that a Calvinist would want to exclude the revelation given in the OT as only addressed to Israel (as Pedigreed Jews). It seems they miss the point that the blood of bulls and of goats never saved anyone according to their preselected pedigree. –then what did save them? – FAITH!

“Israel” refers to the faithful. The idea of that the “Jew” in the NT and OT is synonymous with “Israel” as it relates to the Gospel should be abandoned because to begin with it is only applicable to “the southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin (with the Levites), it excludes all the prophets to the northern kingdom such as Samuel, Elijah, and so on.”

The term “Israel” means “faithful” throughout history as the secular ethnic application is different than the redemptive context in scripture. John the Baptist rebuffed the Pharisees in this matter of pre-selected pedigree as to who their father was:

(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

(Mat 3:10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


The “faithful” receive God’s gift of grace, pre-selection had nothing to do with it, as Paul’s reveals that the faithful are saved he uses the term the “seed of Abraham” (that there has meaning!) for ALL the saved and that term is consistent and applies from the OT also and is unrelated to the New and Old covenants.

So interesting to note, how the Calvinist will speak of the “schoolmaster” while missing the lesson that people are not born with the special privilege of being predestined as the “Jews” also believed. John put the axe to that thought!

Even more interesting, one of the Calvinists’ favorite proof-texts is 1Corinthians 2:14 which in context actually exposes that they have not received the wisdom of the Progressive Revelation of the Gospel nor understand the ministry of the power of the Gospel unto all men according to their faith. They still believe, like the Jews that they were specially preselected.

In relationship to salvation meaning by faith alone there is no fundamental difference between the NT and the OT; the fundamental difference between the New Covenant and the Old is it is written in our hearts.

 

[Dave G]

I realize that but that still means men must also choose to Love God

I agree, men must choose to love God or there will be no relationship.
Who will choose to love God ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 )?

Those whom He loved first ( 1 John 4:19 ).

The Lost sin because of their wickedness. The saved sin because no matter what they do they can't escape the wickedness of their flesh.

On that, we certainly agree.
Galatians 5:17.

 

[MB]

[

I agree, men must choose to love God or there will be no relationship.
Who will choose to love God ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 )?

Those whom He loved first ( 1 John 4:19 ).



On that, we certainly agree.
Galatians 5:17.

I first began to Love God when I heard what He did for me because of His love. He sent His Son to die for me and His Son suffered more than I could imagine ,for me. This caused me to Love Jesus. This is selfless love. It convicted me and made me look at my sin and ask for forgiveness. I have a Son myself whom I love very much which is why I know God suffered right along with Jesus through the whole of the Crucifixion.There is no greater love than God's love for all humanity.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

I first began to Love God when I heard what He did for me because of His love. He sent His Son to die for me and His Son suffered more than I could imagine ,for me.

I agree so far.

This caused me to Love Jesus.

This is where I disagree. This did not cause you to Love Jesus, the Holy Spirit did. Many people hear what Christ did for them and it does not cause them to love Him.

 

[MB]

I agree so far.



This is where I disagree. This did not cause you to Love Jesus, the Holy Spirit did. Many people hear what Christ did for them and it does not cause them to love Him.

You would argue over the sky if I said it was blue you would disagree

 

[Reformed1689]

You would argue over the sky if I said it was blue you would disagree

First that is a personal attack and not necessary. Second, that isn't even true. Third, I see you can't actually refute what I said and had to resort to ad hominem.

 

[MB]

First that is a personal attack and not necessary. Second, that isn't even true. Third, I see you can't actually refute what I said and had to resort to ad hominem.

Personal attack! This is really funny because arguing is why you come here isn't it? After all this is what debate is all about. I have to admit that you are the first to argue over testimony. How ever I didn't say the Holy Spirit was not involved. This is what you imagined for your argument. I'm not surprised because you scrutinize everything I say as if you can't wait to argue over anything whether it's true or not.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

This is what you imagined for your argument. I'm not surprised because you scrutinize everything I say as if you can't wait to argue over anything whether it's true or not.
MB

No, I did not imagine anything. I based it off of a position you have made abundantly clear on this forum. It is false teaching.

 

[MB]

No, I did not imagine anything. I based it off of a position you have made abundantly clear on this forum. It is false teaching.

Yes you did and you don't want to admit it. How's this I will not answer any more of your arguments. because they are a waist of time ,your on my ignore list. Congratulations.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes you did and you don't want to admit it. How's this I will not answer any more of your arguments. because they are a waist of time ,your on my ignore list. Congratulations.
MB

That's not any different, you don't answer them anyway.