Why free choice is neccessary

[Revmitchell]

Yes, but what is the Gospel? The preaching of the Gospel is not sufficient to save. Part of the Gospel is God drawing (literally dragging in the Greek) the sinner.

It is not part of the gospel. No where does scripture claim it is part of the gospel. At no time has it ever been preached that God will drag you to salvation if you are called.

Of course it does. Read the book of John. It clearly says nobody turns to Christ without the drawing of the Father.

The context of that is the calling of the disciples not salvation

 

[Reformed1689]

It is not part of the gospel. No where does scripture claim it is part of the gospel. At no time has it ever been preached that God will drag you to salvation if you are called.

Really? Jesus Himself said it in John 6.

The context of that is the calling of the disciples not salvation

In case you haven't noticed, the Gospel of John is about a LOT more than just the calling of the disciples.

 

[Revmitchell]

In case you haven't noticed, the Gospel of John is about a LOT more than just the calling of the disciples.

This is not the first time you have done this. This post is called obfuscation. In laymen"s terms it is called muddying the waters. What you have said here, while it is fact, has nothing to do with my post nor does it provide clarity on this issue.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is not the first time you have done this. This post is called obfuscation. In laymen"s terms it is called muddying the waters. What you have said here, while it is fact, has nothing to do with my post nor does it provide clarity on this issue.

That was not obfuscation. Rather, the one of yours I am replying to is. And yes, my comment had everything to do with your post. You stated (in response to my telling you that the drawing of the Father is found in John's Gospel) the following:

The context of that is the calling of the disciples not salvation

But you never said what verse you are talking about, or what verse you think I am talking about. I said earlier in my accused obfuscation post the following:

Really? Jesus Himself said it in John 6.

But of course, you didn't engage with that.

In John 6, which is not dealing with the call of the disciples, Jesus says that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him. The underlying Greek word for draw literally means to drag or pull by physical force.

So stop with the false accusations and actually engage with what I say or leave me alone.

 

[Yeshua1]

I would like to explain why free will is necessary for us to fulfill God's greatest commandment and how we can establish a true and solid foundation for our belief system.


First, I would like to point out that everyone, no matter how good their intentions, how intelligent, or how well educated they may be are all susceptible to selection bias ( Selection bias - Wikipedia ) It doesn't take long to see how selection bias has crept into these debates time and time again in the past. People on both sides of the argument have their artillery of verses they fire out to prove their point. Perhaps this is why these debates are still unresolved after all this time?


Let me give you an example. Back in the 1500s the top minds in astronomy believed that the earth stood still and the whole universe revolved around it. The "evidence" was overwhelming. This system was explained scientifically, although it was a bit over complicated, still, it worked out on paper. Any educated person in the field of astronomy could read up on it and conclude that it checked out.



Even the Bible seemed to support this idea. First Chronicles 16:30 states that "the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved." Psalm 104:5 says, "[the Lord] Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose."



So when "De Revolutionibus" was published in 1543 and claimed that the earth revolved around the sun, many saw it as heresy and flat out denied the idea. Interestingly, John Calvin preached a sermon after "De Revolutionibus" was published in which he denounced those who "pervert the order of nature" by saying that "the sun does not move and that it is the earth that revolves and that it turns".



Of course, we now know that John Calvin along with many highly educated scientists at the time were fundamentally wrong about how our universe worked.



I would also like to pose a question for you to ponder. Has there ever been anything you believed without a doubt only to later discover that you were wrong or misinformed? I certainly have. I believe it's a healthy step in growth to move past misinformed ideas and challenge my thinking. I am comfortable questioning my own beliefs because I want to understand why I believe what I do and most importantly what the truth really is. Often this involves focusing on the foundation of the issue and once I understand what the true foundation is then I can begin building on top of that.



So what I would like to do is focus on the foundation of God and faith. I believe that if we can gain a solid understanding of this point then we can test the validity of our other beliefs against it to see if they pass muster. I have yet to have anyone give me a straight and concise answer to the following:



I think it's fair that LOVE is a prime candidate for discussion.

After all, GOD IS LOVE 1 John 4:8

Loving God is also the GREATEST commandment. Mark 12:28-30



What is the Biblical definition of love? It most definitely is not a warm fuzzy feeling or saying 3 words over and over. No, it is:



Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7



Can we all agree on what we have just established?

- God is love

- The greatest commandment is to love God

- love is described accurately in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7



What 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 lists are all ACTIONS that REQUIRE FREE CHOICE. If my friend Matt sits and listens to me ramble on for 2 hours about all my problems then I could say that Matt was practicing PATIENCE and therefore was loving towards me. He CHOSE to stay and listen and not leave 10 minutes in annoyed with me.



Now if I tied Matt to the chair and made him sit there for 2 hours listening to me ramble then I would not say that he was patient or that he was loving towards me. Why? Because it wasn't his choice to be there, it was my choice for him to be there. I was serving myself at best.



This can be applied to everything listed in the definition of love. Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling or something we say... it is a collection of actions that REQUIRE US TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO FREELY CHOOSE OR NOT CHOOSE TO PERFORM THESE ACTIONS.

This is a logic and continuity that God brought into existence with his creation.


So in order for us to be able TO LOVE GOD then we must also posses the ability to NOT LOVE GOD. The faculty of choice must exist for the action of love to happen. That is how we were designed.



I would also like to point out that you can clearly see love being practiced by people from all walks including believers of various religious and nonbelievers. There has been much study into altruism and there is even an interesting analysis in the book "Why Science Does Not Disprove God" by Amir Aczel.

I would argue that every one of these people has the choice to love God or not. Which they choose will determine what their relationship with God is going forward. If for some reason the ability to choose to love or not love God specifically was disabled in all of us then none of us would be able to love God. For God to enable us to love him, he must also enable the ability for us to choose not to love him.



So is your belief system consistent with the fact that loving God also requires the ability to be able to choose not to love God?



If not then you believe that God's greatest commandment to us is something that we are incapable of doing AT ALL. I would view a God that makes contradictory statements to be a major red flag

You cannot have God as just love, as He is also Holy!

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinist seem to believe they are nothing but puppets on a string. Some go so far as to say God controls everything even our own sin. Blaming there sin on God. There simply is no such thing as Love with out choice to do so. Love like hate is something you have to choose to do.
MB

Nobody does that. No one blames sin on God.No scripture to support these ideas.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Brad12d3

I would like to explain why free will is necessary

It might be better to explain why you think it exists.



[First, I would like to point out that everyone, no matter how good their intentions, how intelligent, or how well educated they may be are all susceptible to selection bias ( Selection bias - Wikipedia ) It doesn't take long to see how selection bias has crept into these debates time and time again in the past. People on both sides of the argument have their artillery of verses they fire out to prove their point. Perhaps this is why these debates are still unresolved after all this time?]

And yet, it says this is your second post??? so where does the time after time thing come in.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is not the first time you have done this. This post is called obfuscation. In laymen"s terms it is called muddying the waters. What you have said here, while it is fact, has nothing to do with my post nor does it provide clarity on this issue.

Strangely enough, nearly every one of Rm"s posts can be categorized as obfuscation