Why he left IFB

[Don]

Yes, in the sense that there are decent IFB churches out there.

But many people on this very site testify of having bad experiences with IFB churches being backward, uneducated, pharisaical, etc...

While you call for us NOT to overgeneralize, it would give you credence if you would add, "But I will say that there sure are a LOT of these type churches who bear the title IFB out there."

Can't do that. As I've pointed out, there are over 9,000 churches that identify themselves as IFB. Even if we decide to say "a lot," what number or percentage of that >9,000 does "a lot" signify? And then how do we go about verifying that percentage or number?

If I agree to use the people who have posted here--including myself--as the yardstick, then how many IFB churches does that represent? If we agree to perhaps two dozen each, multiplied by the approximately dozen or so who have posted against IFB churches, that gives us about 288; for the sake of argument, let's round it up to 300. Initially, 300 sounds like a lot; but 300 is only 3% of 9,000. That leaves 97%, or 8,700 IFB churches that we can only speculate about. Even if we say there are two dozen people posting here, and they each know of two dozen churches, we still only come up with a number that equates to 6%; leaving 94% to either give the benefit of the doubt, or condemn based on the 6%.

So sorry, but I can't agree to "a lot."

 

[Bronconagurski]

Yes, in the sense that there are decent IFB churches out there.

But many people on this very site testify of having bad experiences with IFB churches being backward, uneducated, pharisaical, etc...

While you call for us NOT to overgeneralize, it would give you credence if you would add, "But I will say that there sure are a LOT of these type churches who bear the title IFB out there."

I can only judge the IFB by the churches I have been a member of, not what people on this site say. People can lie, or be mistaken, or have an ax to grind. I would no more take their word on the IFB than the SBC churches. Besides, a handful of people is not a lot to me. I have seen people go to Christian schools and sign agreements that they will go by their standards. Then when they come to school and get sent home for violating them, they malign the school and the church and say how hypocritical and backward they are. There is no honor in anything like that.

Let's go to education Luke, because you seem to enjoy to down anyone that you think is uneducated. I have seen churches that have Pastors that, while they don't have great educations, have great compassion, and have done more in their communities than a thousand with degrees in front of their name. They helped put families back together, sat with dying loved ones, took care of orphans and widows, and a thousand other things that no one thinks about or will ever know till we get on the other side. They weren't afraid to get their hands dirty. Personally, I think one should get as educated as one can afford, but that ain't everything.

 

[Luke2427]

Can't do that. As I've pointed out, there are over 9,000 churches that identify themselves as IFB. Even if we decide to say "a lot," what number or percentage of that >9,000 does "a lot" signify? And then how do we go about verifying that percentage or number?

If I agree to use the people who have posted here--including myself--as the yardstick, then how many IFB churches does that represent? If we agree to perhaps two dozen each, multiplied by the approximately dozen or so who have posted against IFB churches, that gives us about 288; for the sake of argument, let's round it up to 300. Initially, 300 sounds like a lot; but 300 is only 3% of 9,000. That leaves 97%, or 8,700 IFB churches that we can only speculate about. Even if we say there are two dozen people posting here, and they each know of two dozen churches, we still only come up with a number that equates to 6%; leaving 94% to either give the benefit of the doubt, or condemn based on the 6%.

So sorry, but I can't agree to "a lot."

Your sampling data is off.

On this site we have baptists from sea to shining sea. From Canada down to Texas and Florida.

Larger than 6% of the members of baptistboard testify to AT LEAST being personally familiar with a pharisaical IFB church.

Even the most ARDENT IFB folks on here have to admit they have been to or at the VERY least know of SEVERAL IFB churches like this.

No, the numbers are not verifiable conclusively.

But we've got a head-in-the-sand problem if we think that this type of church is not rampant within the ranks of IFB.

 

[Luke2427]

Let's go to education Luke, because you seem to enjoy to down anyone that you think is uneducated.

How so?

I have seen churches that have Pastors that, while they don't have great educations, have great compassion, and have done more in their communities than a thousand with degrees in front of their name.

So what?

There are a few who are not very educated who are able to overcome this tremendous obstacle that is a lack of education.

Wonderful.

There are also THOUSANDS of them who do ten times the harm than good they do BECAUSE they are uneducated.

I've heard PERSONALLY hundreds of people testify that the reason they do not go to church is because some backwater moron stood in a pulpit and preached vehemently that a great evil is present in the hearts of women who wear pants or people going to the "Hollywood movies" or carrying their families to the beach to go "mixed bathing". The REALLY stupid ones turn hundreds of sinners from Christ every week preaching KJVO doctrine.

 

[Don]

2,173 members on BB. Each member page lists 30 members. A randomly-chosen page showed 5 of those 30 as non-baptist. Generally speaking, that leads to a conclusion of about 1,800 members who are baptist. 6% of that number comes out to about 110 members.

First, I invite you to encourage those 110 members--or preferably, more--to post their personal number of IFB churches they know fit the description. So far, we typically see the same dozen or so members posting on this subject.

Second, if we accept your number of 6%--for the sake of argument, let's bump it to 10%--then at a 1-for-1 ratio, that still equates to less than 15% of the reported, known IFB churches.

So what constitutes "many" or "most"? A specific number? A specific percentage? When can we say that most SBC churches are guilty of something? When can we say that most GARBC or Freewill Baptist churches are guilty of something? Or do we simply say, "I know of a couple, and I've heard of a couple of others; so many, or most, or all of them are bad"?

Again, I'm not denying or questioning that such IFB churches exist. I question our use of logical fallacies.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Since the Topic is about IFB Problems....

I found this while roaming through the "Sharper Iron" forum quite by accident last night. It is a webpage posted by Dr.Earl Little who is apparently a former (high-powered)"Fundamentalist". Ya'll can look at it and see what you think of his testimony and comments. He was the former Pastor of the Miller Road Baptist Church that Jack Hyles was pastor of before he went to Hammond. I think Dr. Little pastored there after Dr. Hyles left. Here is the link:

IFB Abuse Restoration

Frankly, I'm not sure WHAT I think of it.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Luke2427]

2,173 members on BB. Each member page lists 30 members. A randomly-chosen page showed 5 of those 30 as non-baptist. Generally speaking, that leads to a conclusion of about 1,800 members who are baptist. 6% of that number comes out to about 110 members.

First, I invite you to encourage those 110 members--or preferably, more--to post their personal number of IFB churches they know fit the description. So far, we typically see the same dozen or so members posting on this subject.

This is where you miss it Don. We do not need the 1800 members to speak up on the matter.

If 12 from all walks of life and numerous different regions report on the matter, and 11 of them say, "Yes, I have seen many of these backwater, pharisaical IFB churches myself and have heard many others who have seen other IFB churches that meet that description...."

Well that's not a scientific poll... but it is nonetheless very compelling.

And I think you are nit picking to deny this based on the fact that it is not perfectly scientific.

I have PERSONALLY BEEN IN DOZENS of these idiotic IFB churches. Dozens.

I have PERSONALLY attended IFB "camp meetings" where HUNDREDS of these type churches come together and shout the house down while some moron gets up and screams and hollars about short hair on women and false Christians who are clearly false because they "go to the Hollywood movies."

I contend your head is in the sand or your experience is EXTREMELY limited if you don't recognize that under the IFB umbrella are TONS of this kind of stupid mess. That doesn't mean that there are not also some good churches. There are.

 

[Don]

(sigh)

As I stated in a previous post, and have reiterated in multiple other posts, I do not deny there are such churches; and most of them are associated with the Hyles and/or Ruckerman circles.

I take issue with the inflammatory language, and the logical fallacies. For example, let's look at how many Luke used in his last response to me:
His use of "hundreds" in regards to camp meetings--did he really poll to see how many churches were actually there? Did he mean that he'd been to more than one camp meeting, and was using the sum total of all camp meetings he'd attended, without regard for the fact that in such meetings you usually have "repeat customers"?
His use of "tons"--how do you quantify "tons"? Since a ton is 2,000 pounds, is he saying that there are at least two tons (and thus, 4,000) or more IFB churches that this applies to? Thus, we have inflammatory, meaningless numbers.
He identifies "dozens"--when it's already been shown that two or three, or even 12 dozen equates to 6% or less of the total number in question. This is couched in his personal experience, which creates two fallacies: anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority. The problem with this is that anecdotal evidence has also been offered by others as an alternative viewpoint.
And then he uses language such as "sticking your head in the sand", which fits the strawman fallacy--attacking the person instead of showing the arguments to be incorrect.

Bad IFB churches exist. We should identify them and warn others about them when we find them. But should we be telling people to avoid ALL of them, because we personally know of a dozen, or even a hundred, out of 9,000?

That's like saying we shouldn't go to any SBC churches because one or two of them support homosexuality. It's wrong to condemn all SBC for something a few of them are guilty of; and it's wrong to do the same about IFB churches.

Now, if someone wants to start a list of IFB churches that people should avoid, I'll be happy to help contribute to that list. But let's be specific. For example, Westboro calls themselves IFB; that places them #1 on the list (in my opinion). Next, I'd warn people about First Baptist in Hammond, until they get a new pastor and we see which direction they go. And then I've got a few more, if anyone really wants to do this.

 

[Luke2427]

(sigh)

As I stated in a previous post, and have reiterated in multiple other posts, I do not deny there are such churches; and most of them are associated with the Hyles and/or Ruckerman circles.

I take issue with the inflammatory language, and the logical fallacies. For example, let's look at how many Luke used in his last response to me:
His use of "hundreds" in regards to camp meetings--did he really poll to see how many churches were actually there?

You prove here that you don't even know your own movement as well as I do.

This is why you are wrong on this.

At First Baptist in Hammond they have a meeting of PASTORS (most of whom pastor CHURCHES, hello?) and THOUSANDS attend.

And they preach this backwater nonsense.

That's just ONE of such circles.

Phil Kidd, look him up, is a full time IFB evangelist who preaches at dozens of OTHER churches every year because the types of churches that support the Hammond meeting are too LIBERAL for the churches Kidd preaches at.

Look, Don, EVERYBODY knows IFB is EAT UP with this mess- everybody but those few in IFB who are willfully blind to it.

He identifies "dozens"--when it's already been shown that two or three, or even 12 dozen equates to 6% or less of the total number in question.

What number??

This is couched in his personal experience, which creates two fallacies: anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority. The problem with this is that anecdotal evidence has also been offered by others as an alternative viewpoint.

Your argument is EQUALLY lodged in these fallacies. Hello?

And then he uses language such as "sticking your head in the sand", which fits the strawman fallacy--attacking the person instead of showing the arguments to be incorrect.

Now you have your fallacies mixed up. It is ad hominem, not straw man.

Bad IFB churches exist. We should identify them and warn others about them when we find them. But should we be telling people to avoid ALL of them, because we personally know of a dozen, or even a hundred, out of 9,000?

And WHO said to avoid ALL of them??

 

[abcgrad94]

Part of the problem is the lack of response and acknowledgement from IFB over the years. When sin is brought to light, IFB folks shrug and say "not my church, not my problem." Or, the response is, "yeah, that's bad, but we're all independent, and the sin is isolated to just one church or one incident." It seems IFB wants those of us who HAVE experienced abuse to shut up about it. WHY? I think it should be shouted from the housetops until ALL IFB churches acknowledge the problems exist in the IFB realm and are more widespread than they think, and do more to change their image away from what is perceived. If they are not abusive, and know this is the image others have of IFB, then why not change the church name to remove doubt?

There are many muslim folks in the USA. Maybe not all of them are violent terrorists, but their religion teaches common doctrines and produces common traits in its followers. When 9/11 happened, a handful of muslims condemned the act, but you don't see much about them actively trying to CHANGE their violent image. Ya know what? I don't trust ANY of them as a result.

I feel the same way about IFB. The churches teach common "standards" and produce cookie-cutter followers with common traits.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I think that there are two kinds of IFB churches. The regular ones like the churches that I have belonged to, and the IFBxer churches like Ruckman and Hyles that are KJVO and open to abuse it seems. So if you want to hate on IFB churches, then add the x to the end and I have no problem. I have been in an IFB church for 30 years and I have never been to a Jack Hyles conference nor has any of my Pastors. Period. So take you hate elsewhere, sheesh. That would be like me saying all SBC churches are like Steven Furtick.

 

[Luke2427]

I think that there are two kinds of IFB churches. The regular ones like the churches that I have belonged to, and the IFBxer churches like Ruckman and Hyles that are KJVO and open to abuse it seems. So if you want to hate on IFB churches, then add the x to the end and I have no problem. I have been in an IFB church for 30 years and I have never been to a Jack Hyles conference nor has any of my Pastors. Period. So take you hate elsewhere, sheesh. That would be like me saying all SBC churches are like Steven Furtick.

NOBODY HAS SAID ALL YOUR IFB CHURCHES ARE A CERTAIN WAY!!!

Stay on topic PLEASE!

 

[thjplgvp]

"I have PERSONALLY BEEN IN DOZENS of these idiotic IFB churches. Dozens."

Luke I will have to challenge you on that statement I am not a preacher but have traveled extensively in some 11 states over the last 42 years. And I have not been to more than 20 different churches and all but 1 was IFB. I did not leave any church sensing the pastor was an idiot nor did I sense the people we being led by a man bent on their destruction. I am 62 years old and guessing you are about 35 so unless you have no church home or are intentionally traveling to churches to pass judgment on them how have you visited "dozens" of IFB churches and not found 1 that is doing things right?

All your posts on this subject are suspect in my mind based on the above quote.

I would challenge you to name 12 churches by name that are idiotic and please define idiotic for me.

As I have thought about it I suppose if you were a young man and traveled with an evangelist parent or singing group or the son of a missionary then it would be possible to visit that many churches.

 

[Bronconagurski]

NOBODY HAS SAID ALL YOUR IFB CHURCHES ARE A CERTAIN WAY!!!

Stay on topic PLEASE!

You are saying the majority are bad, and that is a lie.

 

[Luke2427]

"I have PERSONALLY BEEN IN DOZENS of these idiotic IFB churches. Dozens."

Luke I will have to challenge you on that statement I am not a preacher but have traveled extensively in some 11 states over the last 42 years. And I have not been to more than 20 different churches and all but 1 was IFB. I did not leave any church sensing the pastor was an idiot nor did I sense the people we being led by a man bent on their destruction. I am 62 years old and guessing you are about 35 so unless you have no church home or are intentionally traveling to churches to pass judgment on them how have you visited "dozens" of IFB churches and not found 1 that is doing things right?

Who said I have never found ONE that is doing things right??

Fundamentalists love to have meetings and revivals and conferences. I have been to dozens of these type churches. It is no challenge to do so.

All your posts on this subject are suspect in my mind based on the above quote.

So what?

Who is supposed to care that you suspect something?

I would challenge you to name 12 churches by name that are idiotic and please define idiotic for me.

I could do it.

Idiotic, as it pertains to these types, means people who turn people away from God by preaching stupid things like pants on women is an abomination, you can only be saved from the King James Bible, Contemporary music is ungodly and wicked, responsible consumption of alcohol is sin, etc...

 

[Luke2427]

You are saying the majority are bad, and that is a lie.

Where did I say majority?

 

[abcgrad94]

I think that there are two kinds of IFB churches. The regular ones like the churches that I have belonged to, and the IFBxer churches like Ruckman and Hyles that are KJVO and open to abuse it seems. So if you want to hate on IFB churches, then add the x to the end and I have no problem. So take you hate elsewhere, sheesh.

Bron, I do not "hate" IFB, but I do hate abuse, same as most Christians don't hate homose*uals but do hate the sin of homose*uality.

If it makes you feel better and separate from the extreme IFB, I'll be happy to put an "x" in there.

 

[abcgrad94]

"I have PERSONALLY BEEN IN DOZENS of these idiotic IFB churches. Dozens."

how have you visited "dozens" of IFB churches and not found 1 that is doing things right?

I'm not Luke, but I'll tell you my experience, in a nutshell. I was raised in an abusive IFBx home. We moved a lot and I had the opportunity to live in 5 different states and attend many churches. Overall, I'd say about 20 churches, some as members and some as visitors. Some of the churches had abusive pastors and abusive members. Some of the churches had good people with abusive pastors. Some had non-abusive pastors who loved the Lord but would not expose the sin in the church membership. Every church we joined had a pastor that told my mother to stay with my dad and be a good submissive wife. In every single church we attended, people saw how my mother, brothers and I (and other children) were treated, yet NOTHING was ever said or done to stop it--only that leaving or divorcing my dad would be a sin on my mom's part.

The only way I could escape my homelife was to attend a Bible college, which I did. While in college, I joined a singing group that toured many churches. We spent the nights in homes of the pastors and/or church folks where we ministered. I can honestly say, there were times I feared for my physical safety in some of these homes. One pastor in particular seemed ok, but once a girlfriend and I was in his home, it was a different story. He even bragged about being abusive to his dog.

Not every person who housed us was mean. There were some sweet ladies and some good Christian couples. But overall, my experience with IFBx has not been good.

 

[thjplgvp]

So the fact is you are judging based on what you suspect, what you have heard or what you think.
It would seem my friend that your arguments are without merit and your reasoning behind your diatribe is not doctrinal but personal opinion regarding another’s religious liberty. He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin (Ja. 4:17). The verse is not directed to you but is a verse that deals with individual liberty, for instance if I believe that the wearing of pants is sin and I wear them my conscience comes into play and would feel miserable because I violated my conscience but by your posts you would tell me I am foolish and an idiot for thinking that. Tell me my friend according to scripture who is in sin me or you? You may want to look at Paul’s response to this very similar subject in 1 Corinthians 8 before responding.
Our personal liberty in Christ can take different forms to different people that is one of the reasons the scriptures speak clearly when it asks the question "who are you to judge another man’s servant for he stands or falls to his own master (Romans 14)? Personal liberty is found in the minds of each individual member as they relate their lives with the bible and the church leadership it is not for you or I to decide for them. If I am happy and joyous in my IFB church and you are happy and joyous in your church that is enough for me. You have no right to condemn a church or a group of churches who are preaching the gospel simply because you don’t like the way they do something.

I am reminded of the great R.A. Torrey who while traveling across country with his family stopped at a little country church for morning services. The pastor did not know who Torrey was at the time and preached his message while Mr. Torrey took notes as he was accustomed to do. After the services were over and the family was in the car traveling the son said to Mr. Torrey, “Dad you are so much better at preaching then that fellow, and he stumbled across a lot of words and he was boring so why did you take notes? To which Dr. Torrey replied (paraphrase here) when a man opens the word of God and preaches we need to open our minds to learn.”

I use this illustration to say this, God’s word will not return void but will accomplish that which God purposes Isa 55” I am sure that pulpits across the land are filled with less than fully capable men, I am also sure that a study of church history shows God used a good many unlearned and weird people to get the job done. A few IFB churches may be pastored by less than perfect men (aren’t they all really) but most, by a large percentage are winning souls, baptizing, discipling, counseling, praying, reading and generally doing their very best to honor a risen Savior and a holy God.

I would rather have working for me an man who screws up some than an employee who is constantly tattling about other employees.

My friend you have a wonderful Sunday in your place of worship even if its one of those dozens of IFB churches. J

 

[abcgrad94]

It would seem my friend that your arguments are without merit and your reasoning behind your diatribe is not doctrinal but personal opinion regarding another’s religious liberty. If I am happy and joyous in my IFB church and you are happy and joyous in your church that is enough for me. You have no right to condemn a church or a group of churches who are preaching the gospel simply because you don’t like the way they do something.

J

No sir, this conversation has NOTHING to do with "personal liberty." It has to do with people who have personally witnessed gross abuse within a certain brand of church and who want to warn others of the truth they experienced.

I have every right to condemn any church or individual who knowingly and willfully abuses people. It's wrong. It's sin. And it drives people away from Christ. Look, I don't care how many numbers a guy can rattle off for the week's salvations, baptisms, etc. if he is abusing people on the side. That man's religion is in vain. I will not turn a blind eye to it, or make excuses that "God's word won't return void" to ignore evil.

We are not just accountable to God--we are accountable to each other and we are to hold each other accountable.

I do take issue with your inference that I condemn IFBx because I don't like the "way they do things." If the way someone does things is immoral, extra-Biblical, and very damaging to others, we MUST, as our Christian DUTY examine and expose and correct the behavior.