Why I am not a Calvinist.. the ACTUAL topic of this thread

[Saved-By-Grace]

I don't really know where you guys get your theology from? You speak of a sinners always wanting to reject Jesus Christ, this is complete nonsense. I was not saved till I was over 20 years old (I am 56 now), and yet I cannot remember a day when I wanted to reject Jesus Christ, and even though brought up in a Church of England home, never even heard about Jesus! If you ask the nuns of the Roman Catholic church, if they "reject" Jesus, will probably thing you are off your head! As the Apostle Paul says, HOW shall they hear, IF no one TELLS them?

No sinner can ever come to Jesus Christ for salvation, in and off them selves, as they must respond to the convicting of the Holy Spirit, Who would be calling them to Jesus for salvation. Salvation starts from the Lord in the sinner.

God responds to Cornelius, who was seeking Him in prayer, by sending Peter with the Gospel Message for the salvation of his soul. Did you read verses 34-35 in chapter 10 of Acts?

 

[JonC]

John 3:16 deals with God universal love for all mankind, and the fact that IF any of these who are part of the human race, were to "believe", then they too will be saved. Interestingly, the KJV, with its Calvinistic influence (see their misrendering of the Greek in Acts 2:47, to support "Calvinism"!), chose to translate Greek adjective, "πᾶς" (all), in John 3:16, by the universal "WHOSOEVER". The 1611 KJV reads, "that whosoeuer beleeueth in him".

Revelation 22:17 corresponds with John 3:16, "The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.".

I don't see much a difference (actually, I don't see a difference at all) between saying "all who believe in Him" and "whosoever believes in Him" will have everlasting life.

That said, you are right that John 3:16 deals with God's universal love for all mankind. Calvinism itself does not teach otherwise. Calvinism (the Canons of Dort) teaches that Christ died for all mankind that all who believe would be saved.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I don't see much a difference (actually, I don't see a difference at all) between saying "all who believe in Him" and "whosoever believes in Him" will have everlasting life.

That said, you are right that John 3:16 deals with God's universal love for all mankind. Calvinism itself does not teach otherwise. Calvinism (the Canons of Dort) teaches that Christ died for all mankind that all who believe would be saved.

I might be wrong here. But does not Calvinism teach that only the elect were actually "redeemed" on the cross by Jesus Christ? And, that from eternity past, God has chosen only the elect, who will come to Him for their salvation? If this is the case, how can Jesus have "died for all mankind", that is, for their sins? There is no point in the argument used by some, who say that all the human race does benefit from Christ's death, and then say that it is that He makes the sun and rain fall on the whole world. This is a useless argument, as for 1000's of years before Jesus came, the sun and rain were blessing the lost!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Your argument is "with the text".

I don't think you'll find it is.

You have a circular argument that presumes calvinism "as the test" for its "conclusion for Calvinism"

I don't think you'll find I do, but it is for you to prove.

. Assuming the salient point of your own argument is not the most compelling form of response.

whatever that means.

In the text of Matt 23 and of Matthew 7 the good fruit comes from good trees... bad fruit from bad trees.

In Romans 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

The change for the lost is just as Romans 10:9-11 would have it 'choosing'.

And the ability for the lost to "choose" is because 'I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 the supernatural work of God who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 not just the "FEW" of Matthew 7.

If by 'the WORLD' you mean all the people in the world then either you or the Bible is mistaken because not all people are convicted. Spend a few hours in door-to-door visitation, especially in Britain and you will see what I mean. 'WORLD' here means both Jew and Gentile.' But the question here is whether the 'DRAWING' is effectual or ineffectual. God's drawing is always effectual.
'And He said to him, "Follow Me." So he left all, rose up and followed Him' (Luke 5:27-28).
"My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me" (John 10:27).
'But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through his grace to reveal his Son in me.....' (Galatians 1:15-16).
'But God.......even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ' (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Your response to the texts I gave you appears to be "lets look at different texts than those".

On the contrary, I have answered you posts assiduously. You have yet to make an effective answer to my posts #12 and #30.
It is necessary, when discussing Bible doctrines to compare Scripture with Scripture. The truth of God's word is not found in 'It is written,' but in 'It is written again' (Matthew 4:6-7). The devil can quote Scripture.

Only if you first delete the work of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him"' -- a "DRAWING" power that even Calvinists freely admit - "enables all the choice that depravity disables" for the lost.
How "instructive" to the objective unbiased Bible reader.

So you admit the doctrine of 'Total Depravity'? Perhaps we're getting somewhere. Yes, the sovereign power of God gives life to the spiritually dead, but it does not give those raised the power to put themselves back to death.

But the promise of God is, "I will put My laws in their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Hebrews 8:10).

Does not add "AND THEN they will choose to believe and accept the Gospel" which is the much-imagined ending to Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 that Calvinists have speculated.

So you believe that God will put His laws in someone's mind and write them on his heart, be his God, and make him one of His people and he may yet not be saved and may yet refuse the Gospel? Sheesh!

That "monergistic" insert is creative writing not scripture. You knew that .. right?

Yep! It's true though. You yourself admit that people cannot make themselves good.

Both sides of the debate agree that after the lost person is born-again obeying the law of God happens as they choose of their own free will to walk in the Spirit and thus have power to obey.

Where we differ is in the texts you deleted from your posts that were in my posts.. Where we differ is that Arminians believe Romans 10:9-11 ... Calvinists do not.

Have you never read sermons by Spurgeon, Whitefield and other great Calvinist preachers on this very text? Why on earth would you suppose that Calvinists don't believe it.

I fully understand the creative writing "you have written" -- I just prefer the Bible instead .. including the details in the Bible texts in my post that you keep deleting and not responding to.

I answer your texts one at a time. If you don't like my answers, that's your problem. You have made precious little effort to deal with my texts.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11

"Salvation is of the Jews" John 4.

Both point to the sovereign action of God... both allow free will.

God sovereignly selected the Jews as evangelists. "He came to them"..

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

All dealt with in my posts #12 and #30. I can cut and paste them for you again if you like.

I can see that there are two more posts waiting for me, but I have a life outside this forum, so that will be all for now.

 

[JonC]

I might be wrong here. But does not Calvinism teach that only the elect were actually "redeemed" on the cross by Jesus Christ? And, that from eternity past, God has chosen only the elect, who will come to Him for their salvation? If this is the case, how can Jesus have "died for all mankind", that is, for their sins? There is no point in the argument used by some, who say that all the human race does benefit from Christ's death, and then say that it is that He makes the sun and rain fall on the whole world. This is a useless argument, as for 1000's of years before Jesus came, the sun and rain were blessing the lost!

Calvinism does teach that those who believe (the elect) were chosen from the foundations of the earth. Some Calvinists teach that God chose out of fallen men a people to save. Other's teach that God chose prior to the Fall to save a people. So there are some differences.

Calvinism itself teaches that Christ died for all mankind indiscriminately (John Calvin taught this in his Institutes), but that Christ also died to save only those who believe (so the atonement - that is, having one's sins atoned for - is discriminate. Only those who believe will be saved.

I believe their error goes far deeper than TULIP.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Calvinism does teach that those who believe (the elect) were chosen from the foundations of the earth. Some Calvinists teach that God chose out of fallen men a people to save. Other's teach that God chose prior to the Fall to save a people. So there are some differences.

Calvinism itself teaches that Christ died for all mankind indiscriminately (John Calvin taught this in his Institutes), but that Christ also died to save only those who believe (so the atonement - that is, having one's sins atoned for - is discriminate. Only those who believe will be saved.

I believe their error goes far deeper than TULIP.

1 John 2:2 says, "And He Himself is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the whole world."

where the Greek, "ἱλασμός", means "atonement, sin-offering" (Liddell and Scott Greek lexicon). The LXX uses "ἱλασμός" for the Hebrew "kippur" (atonement, Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon).

"the whole word" is not limited to the saved only, which is seen from the same phrase in chapter 5, verse 19, where the saved are contrasted to the wicked world. The conservative Bible commentary of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, says this on 1 John 2:2

"Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther)."

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I don't think you'll find it is.

I don't think you'll find I do, but it is for you to prove.

whatever that means.

If by 'the WORLD' you mean all the people in the world then either you or the Bible is mistaken because not all people are convicted. Spend a few hours in door-to-door visitation, especially in Britain and you will see what I mean. 'WORLD' here means both Jew and Gentile.' But the question here is whether the 'DRAWING' is effectual or ineffectual. God's drawing is always effectual.
'And He said to him, "Follow Me." So he left all, rose up and followed Him' (Luke 5:27-28).
"My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me" (John 10:27).
'But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through his grace to reveal his Son in me.....' (Galatians 1:15-16).
'But God.......even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ' (Ephesians 2:4-5).

On the contrary, I have answered you posts assiduously. You have yet to make an effective answer to my posts #12 and #30.
It is necessary, when discussing Bible doctrines to compare Scripture with Scripture. The truth of God's word is not found in 'It is written,' but in 'It is written again' (Matthew 4:6-7). The devil can quote Scripture.

So you admit the doctrine of 'Total Depravity'? Perhaps we're getting somewhere. Yes, the sovereign power of God gives life to the spiritually dead, but it does not give those raised the power to put themselves back to death.




So you believe that God will put His laws in someone's mind and write them on his heart, be his God, and make him one of His people and he may yet not be saved and may yet refuse the Gospel? Sheesh!

Yep! It's true though. You yourself admit that people cannot make themselves good.

Have you never read sermons by Spurgeon, Whitefield and other great Calvinist preachers on this very text? Why on earth would you suppose that Calvinists don't believe it.

I answer your texts one at a time. If you don't like my answers, that's your problem. You have made precious little effort to deal with my texts.

All dealt with in my posts #12 and #30. I can cut and paste them for you again if you like.

I can see that there are two more posts waiting for me, but I have a life outside this forum, so that will be all for now.

I live in England and the opposition to the Gospel is here just as it all over the world!

I keep seeing your reasoning in many places, that "world" means "Jews and Gentiles". Did you know that this is exactly the same as saying, the "entire world"? The human race consists of TWO, Jews and non Jews, if you were the one, then you were not the other. When Paul says that he took the Gospel to the Jews first, he means the whole nation of Israel. And when he says that thereafter he was to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, he meant the rest of the human race. I don't see any other way to understand this?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why not be Calvinist?

One good reason is the following "Calvinism does not survive the test of scripture."
================================================


John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”


"God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The desire of God is not the same as His will though, and Jesus death secured a certain salvation for some, not just a possibility for all!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The desire of God is not the same as His will though, and Jesus death secured a certain salvation for some, not just a possibility for all!

can you provide any Scriptures for this? This sounds very much that God is not sincere in His desire to save everyone, because though He does, yet His will forbids this? Because Reformed theology has done away with human free will and responsibility, they have resorted to such absurd reasoning.

 

[Yeshua1]

can you provide any Scriptures for this? This sounds very much that God is not sincere in His desire to save everyone, because though He does, yet His will forbids this? Because Reformed theology has done away with human free will and responsibility, they have resorted to such absurd reasoning.

We do not do away with human free will and responsibility, but we state that the free will remaining is in bondage to our sin natures, no longer have real and total free will, as there are things now that we will no longer want to even do!

 

[JonC]

1 John 2:2 says, "And He Himself is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the whole world."

where the Greek, "ἱλασμός", means "atonement, sin-offering" (Liddell and Scott Greek lexicon). The LXX uses "ἱλασμός" for the Hebrew "kippur" (atonement, Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon).

"the whole word" is not limited to the saved only, which is seen from the same phrase in chapter 5, verse 19, where the saved are contrasted to the wicked world. The conservative Bible commentary of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, says this on 1 John 2:2

"Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther)."

John Calvin did not restrict the "whole world" to the elect. Neither does Calvinism. Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Again, you are not arguing against Calvinism but against some Calvinists.

 

[TCassidy]

I will expand, "did John Calvin die for you?"

Name one person in this thread who has claimed John Calvin died for him/her.

Can you say "red herring?"

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Name one person in this thread who has claimed John Calvin died for him/her.

Can you say "red herring?"

my point is why do people have the need to call themselves, "Reformed" or "Calvinist", etc, why not just a Christian or follower of Jesus Christ?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

We do not do away with human free will and responsibility, but we state that the free will remaining is in bondage to our sin natures, no longer have real and total free will, as there are things now that we will no longer want to even do!

where in Scripture does it say that our wills are in bondage?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

John Calvin did not restrict the "whole world" to the elect. Neither does Calvinism. Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Again, you are not arguing against Calvinism but against some Calvinists.

in what way is Jesus Christ the Savior of the whole world? Can ALL then be saved? what does this do to the teaching that God elected some to eternal life, and left the rest?

 

[TCassidy]

where in Scripture does it say that our wills are in bondage?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[The Archangel]

1 John 2:2 says, "And He Himself is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the whole world."

where the Greek, "ἱλασμός", means "atonement, sin-offering" (Liddell and Scott Greek lexicon). The LXX uses "ἱλασμός" for the Hebrew "kippur" (atonement, Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon).

"the whole word" is not limited to the saved only, which is seen from the same phrase in chapter 5, verse 19, where the saved are contrasted to the wicked world. The conservative Bible commentary of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, says this on 1 John 2:2

"Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther)."

The problem here is that if you understand propitiation rightly, then you have universal salvation. Propitiation is a transaction between the Son and the Father and we can neither ratify nor nullify that transaction. So it must be that "whole world" means something other than everyone without exception.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

where in Scripture does it say that our wills are in bondage?

Jesus said that we are enslaved to slave, that ONLY those whom he set free are really free, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem here is that if you understand propitiation rightly, then you have universal salvation. Propitiation is a transaction between the Son and the Father and we can neither ratify nor nullify that transaction. So it must be that "whole world" means something other than everyone without exception.

The Archangel

Yes, would be restricted to meaning just to whom was the transaction actually intended to benefit?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This means that after a sinner is saved, that they are "free" from the Old Covenant under the "law", and made alive in Jesus Christ. A spiritual exchange takes place. It has nothing to do with the teaching like that of Luther on the "bondage of the will"