Why I am not a Calvinist....

[TCassidy]

You are referring to Acts 13:48. Where you will see both grammatically and contextually, that the verb, "τάσσω", can take the "middle voice", where the context demands it.

You are kidding, right? The word is τεταγμενοι which is a perfect, passive, participle.

 

[JonC]

You are kidding, right? The word is τεταγμενοι which is a perfect, passive, participle.

What???? You have to pick one...is it perfect, passive or participle? It can't be all three at once.

Not everyone can work with languages. Maybe you should leave the Greek to those of us with the Strongest Strong's.

 

[TCassidy]

What???? You have to pick one...is it perfect, passive or participle? It can't be all three at once.

We all know you are kidding, but there are some "Greek experts" on the forum who might think you are being sincere. Yes, they really are that ignorant.

Not everyone can work with languages. Maybe you should leave the Greek to those of us with the Strongest Strong's.

Yes. They spend $9 on a Strong's Concordance, with a really terrible lexicon attached to the end, and think that is better than 7 years of language study. Go figure.

 

[Iconoclast]

According to you. You make the assumption that you are right. He might be right. Calling someone like Rodgers "bogus" and "pathetic" demonstrates how far out of touch with mainstream Baptists you and other hardcore Calvinists are.

Most "mainstream" baptists are badly confused Reynolds. On that message Rogers was lame and responsible for misleading those willingly ignorant people.

 

[agedman]

You serious?

1. Peter was speaking of those Jews who were living in a foreign land which was not their own, as these were considered as "exiles", as the Greek has it.

Your going to have to do more than make assertions without historical or Scriptural proof. There is not anything that I know that supports your thinking that Peter was writing to the Jews.

Rather, the evidence is that he was writing to the church, and as the church the folks were alien in this world.

2. Where does it say here, that these were "chosen" to salvation? I doubt very much if ALL these Peter writes about here, were "the elect" of God. All he is here referring to, is that the Jews had a special relationship with God.

I quoted you Scriptures. It is truly sad that you have so little insight into the Scripture presented that you would discard it with words such as "I doubt" and "All he is here referring to." Especially, when you are mistaken.

Here is a link that will give you at least a tiny bit of insight:
An Introduction To The Book Of 1 Peter

3. The Greek preposition, "εἰς", here translated "to" obey, is also used as "because of", as in Jesus saying that the people of Nineveh repented "εἰς", because of, the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). also in Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for (εἰς, because of) the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.". No sinner is saved by water baptism, but because they had truly repented.

Either you are not taking is matter seriously, or you have difficulty carrying the topic through the passage.

What is presented in 1 Peter 1:3-5:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again ...​

It is the Father who extends "His great mercy" and CAUSED us to be born again. Peter supports election and irresistible grace.

...to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.​

The resurrection from the dead provided that inheritance and that inheritance is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fad away. To that end the believer has such an inheritance reserved in heaven, are protected by the power of God and that the salvation (ultimate reward for believers) is being readied to be revealed.

This is, as you agree, a presentation of perseverance and preservation of the saints.

Here is a companion passage from Ephesians 1. It is commonly used to also show the same areas in agreement with 1 Peter. It is not necessary for me to point out specifically that areas, but I will highlight some that you see the evidences of the Doctrines of Grace expressed in the writing of Paul, also:
Ephesians 1:

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.
​

Now, it is past time that I leave this thread for a bit.

I trust you will come to understand that the position of the Doctrines of Grace is not foreign to the Scriptures, but is by far that which represent the truth of the matter, far more then any other presentation.

 

[Reynolds]

Most "mainstream" baptists are badly confused Reynolds. On that message Rogers was lame and responsible for misleading those willingly ignorant people.

What message are you talking about?

 

[Iconoclast]

What message are you talking about?

My wife and I looked at three last week when I got home....we picked it apart....I let my wife pick out the falsehoods....then we listened to Dr. White, totally dismantle him.
Reynolds I believe on many areas he probably helped people. This message was horrendous....I will look up the links and post them for you....You listen and let me know after hearing it for yourself...give me a minute I just got online...

 

[BobRyan]

Same paul also taught to us that God had elected to himself a faithful remnant out from among unbelieving Israel, so just some, not all were saved, correct?

Paul said "God is not partial" Rom 2:11 not even toward the elect vs non-elect

 

[BobRyan]

Four-point "Calvinists"? No such animal.

To a 5 pointer.

 

[Reynolds]

We all know you are kidding, but there are some "Greek experts" on the forum who might think you are being sincere. Yes, they really are that ignorant.

Yes. The spend $9 on a Strong's Concordance, with a really terrible lexicon attached to the end, and think that is better than 7 years of language study. Go figure.

I know nothing about Greek language. What amazes me is how drastically true experts disagree on its interpretation.

 

[agedman]

Four-point "Calvinists"? No such animal.

Really, what do you call a 3 or 4 pointer?

 

[Reynolds]

Really, what do you call a 3 or 4 pointer?

A non-cal.

 

[rsr]

Hello Reynolds,
I was just looking at anti cal speakers....everyone of them is bogus
this clown, adrian rogers ...

I was not a particular fan of Adrian Rogers, but I do not think he was a clown. It is possible for someone to have a different view of soteriology than I have and yet for them to be honest, dedicated servants of Christ.

 

[rsr]

Really, what do you call a 3 or 4 pointer?

A Calvinist or an Arminian, maybe.

TULIP does not encompass the entire range of Augustinian-Calvinist theology, much less of Reformed theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are referring to Acts 13:48. Where you will see both grammatically and contextually, that the verb, "τάσσω", can take the "middle voice", where the context demands it. you will notice in verse 46, the Jews regarded themselves as not worthy of eternal life (NOT God), which is the "middle voice", by contrast, the Gentiles gladly accepted this same Message (middle voice), and thereby "enrolled themselves" on God's side by their acceptance. There is no objection in the Greek grammar in the passage as a whole, to what I have said here. If there is, I would like to see it.

From the potters freedom;pg188,189
The term appointed here is found in what is called a periphrastic construction.

Luke uses the imperfect form of eimi together with the perfect passive participle. The result is the phrase must be translated as a "pluperfect".
A pluperfect sense speaks of a completed action in the past, but unlike the perfect tense, the pluperfect does not contain the idea of a continuation of a past action into the present time.
Therefore, the meaning of "appointed" refers to a past action.
The only reason people suggest that the term be taken in such an unusual manneris because they do not wish to accept the teaching of the passage

TC explained this to you
Translation of Acts 13:48
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Reading Acts 13:48, the greek text reads:

ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

With implicit commas (according to the Interlinear Bible I am referencing) this reads:

ἀκούοντα δὲ, τὰ ἔθνη ἐδόξαζον, καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ Κυρίου, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

For the purposes of this question, I am focusing on the last sentence fragment:

καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Various translations translate this verse thusly:

...and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed. - NET

...and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers. - NRSV

...and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. - NIV

...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. - KJV

...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. - NASB

My understanding is that "τεταγμένοι" (translated in the above as ordained, appointed or destined) is a military term which means to arrange or to set in order.

Assuming this is correct, why do all of the various translations render this in the above manner and not something along the lines of a rough translation of:

and the many believers were put in order and organized for eternal life.

Which could result in:

When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and the many believers were put in order and organized for eternal life.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was not a particular fan of Adrian Rogers, but I do not think he was a clown. It is possible for someone to have a different view of soteriology than I have and yet for them to be honest, dedicated servants of Christ.

I am not his judge RSR....however it looks like he was helpful to many on various topics....when he turned to his anti cal mode his teaching was horrible. To be in a significant position and teach such shallow ideas is foul.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was not a particular fan of Adrian Rogers, but I do not think he was a clown. It is possible for someone to have a different view of soteriology than I have and yet for them to be honest, dedicated servants of Christ.

JC Ryle and others had differing views on these things, but never erected false caricatures like these current men do.

 

[TCassidy]

I know nothing about Greek language. What amazes me is how drastically true experts disagree on its interpretation.

There is no disagreement on the meaning of τεταγμενοι nor that it is a perfect, passive, participle.

 

[rsr]

JC Ryle and others had differing views on these things, but never erected false caricatures like these current men do.

Erection of false caricatures is not limited to either "side." Simplistic "Calvinism" has made plenty of ludicrous attacks on Arminians, for example. And some Arminians have made erroneous and silly charges against Calvinists.

 

[Iconoclast]

Erection of false caricatures is not limited to either "side." Simplistic "Calvinism" has made plenty of ludicrous attacks on Arminians, for example. And some Arminians have made erroneous and silly charges against Calvinists.

That has not been my experience. A new cal can be over zealous but the others will quickly move to correct such excess. I think that rarely happens in these other places.If you read the comments on the connect 316 website...it gives an indication of what is going on.