Why I am not a Calvinist....

[agedman]

Are you saying that God cannot have the Gospel Message taken to the elect only, Who He knows will respond and be saved? Why all the sham in telling the whole world that they can, if they want to, be saved, knowing full well that this is nothing but a downright LIE?

I would be very careful to not present the commission God gave as presenting a lie.

Was Moses sent to a God hardened pharaoh with the appeal to let the people go?

Was it all a lie?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Either God has ordained a certain salvation for some, his elect, or else God will to save all keeps being jammed up by our free will!

You are blinded by your "Calvinism" and therefore cannot see or accept that "ordination to salvation" is NOT taught in the Bible. tell me something, IF, as you guys think, that God has ordained only the elect to salvation, then why does He say that "He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that they should repent and turn from their evil ways and live"? Why waste any time on those whom God KNOWS will and can never come to Him, because He has by design chosen to save only the elect?

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you saying that God cannot have the Gospel Message taken to the elect only, Who He knows will respond and be saved? Why all the sham in telling the whole world that they can, if they want to, be saved, knowing full well that this is nothing but a downright LIE?

God knows just who will be saved by that message, but none of us know that, so all are given the message.
Those who reject Jesus and the good news are being given their "free will" by God!
Seems that you would like that!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Frankly, I do not know that I have read or heard a sermon that limited the appeal of the gospel to only a select few.

The Calvinistic thinking have no indication of who the elect are, so all are presented the gospel.

God knows all those who are His elect, right? So, why does He not simply take the Gospel Message to these only, that they can be saved? Why tell the WHOLE world about salvation in Jesus Christ, if the WHOLE world can never be saved?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are blinded by your "Calvinism" and therefore cannot see or accept that "ordination to salvation" is NOT taught in the Bible. tell me something, IF, as you guys think, that God has ordained only the elect to salvation, then why does He say that "He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that they should repent and turn from their evil ways and live"? Why waste any time on those whom God KNOWS will and can never come to Him, because He has by design chosen to save only the elect?

Think Paul addresses this in Romans, as he does go into great detail regarding the lost and saved, based upon the Election of God in Christ!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I would be very careful to not present the commission God gave as presenting a lie.

Was Moses sent to a God hardened pharaoh with the appeal to let the people go?

Was it all a lie?

You forget that pharaoh also hardened his own heart. God did get His way in the end. No, it is warped Calvinistic theology that presents the Gospel that is to be preached to ALL without exception, as a lie.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Think Paul addresses this in Romans, as he does go into great detail regarding the lost and saved, based upon the Election of God in Christ!

Show me where in Romans? Chapter 9 theology is much abused by Calvinists!

 

[agedman]

You are blinded by your "Calvinism" and therefore cannot see or accept that "ordination to salvation" is NOT taught in the Bible. tell me something, IF, as you guys think, that God has ordained only the elect to salvation, then why does He say that "He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that they should repent and turn from their evil ways and live"? Why waste any time on those whom God KNOWS will and can never come to Him, because He has by design chosen to save only the elect?

Do you not know that Peter expresses that consistency of the Doctrines of Grace?

1 Peter:

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which isimperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
​

If you look carefully, you can find at least 4 of the basic 5 points of Calvinistic thinking in just that short passage.

 

[Yeshua1]

You forget that pharaoh also hardened his own heart. God did get His way in the end. No, it is warped Calvinistic theology that presents the Gospel that is to be preached to ALL without exception, as a lie.

Why is it warped, is that because you do not see God has being fair and honest than if done in that way?

 

[Yeshua1]

Show me where in Romans? Chapter 9 theology is much abused by Calvinists!

How about chapter 11, or 8?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Do you not know that Peter expresses that consistency of the Doctrines of Grace?

1 Peter:

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which isimperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
​

If you look carefully, you can find at least 4 of the basic 5 points of Calvinistic thinking in just that short passage.

show me them

 

[agedman]

God knows all those who are His elect, right? So, why does He not simply take the Gospel Message to these only, that they can be saved? Why tell the WHOLE world about salvation in Jesus Christ, if the WHOLE world can never be saved?

.
Certainly God knows. He knows the hear, that which not even that person will acknowledge out of self preservation God knows.

But witnesses of The Way do not know people’s hearts, and therefore the presentation is indiscriminate.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

How about chapter 11, or 8?

sure, give me chapter and verse. What do you make of Paul's prayer in chapter 10, verse 1? "Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.". Where he is speaking of his desire to see "them", ALL the Jews of his day, saved. He must have believed that God, in Christ, was "reconciling the world", including ALL of these Jews, to Himself, through the Gospel. ALL does not mean SOME!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

.
Certainly God knows. He knows the hear, that which not even that person will acknowledge out of self preservation God knows.

But witnesses of The Way do not know people’s hearts, and therefore the presentation is indiscriminate.

makes no sense whatsoever! Let me illustrate. I have a 100 jobs, and tell the WHOLE WORLD that ANY can apply for them. Then, when ALL do come for the jobs, I say to them, sorry, I know I said ALL, but I only meant a FEW! This is deception.

 

[Iconoclast]

Saved-By-Grace,

I don't. But here is the real problem of Calvinism. The Gospel Message is to be preached to the entire human race,

You are concerned with things that are not our concern.
Our concern is to preach to all men we have opportunity to reach...all men.
The fact of God's elective purpose...does not change the proclamation that God saves sinners In Christ.

but, by design, the whole human race can never be saved,

God did not have to save anyone...that is why it is spoken of as mercy.
God never intended to save the whole human race.

because Jesus Christ did not make provision for the whole human race when He died.

The application of the Covenant death is a full atonement that actually saves everyone it was intended to save. It will save ALL the Father gave to the Son. not one more not one less.
It is an actual salvation....not a potential salvation.

His death is deemed as "particular", for the sins of the "elect" only. How then is there any Good News for the non-elect?

The good news is that God loves sinners In Christ.....to remain apart from Christ is to remain apart from His love.
Those who love their sin , remain in Adam and go into second death...
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

are we to tell them, by the way, I have some very Good News for you, Jesus Christ did not "provide" for you in His death and therefore you cannot be saved, and you are damned to eternal hell.

You make it sound like you can know who is non elect????
We know all men are sinners.
We know Jesus came to save sinners.
Why not just preach that truth...that every believing sinner will be saved???

You simply cannot have it both ways

.

How about we have it the biblical way with biblical language???

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death;

and to the other the savour of life unto life.


And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

The preaching of the Good News to the whole human race, can only be sincere, if God made provision for ALL their sins in the death of Jesus Christ.

That is not the biblical message. God does not make .....provision.....He actually accomplishes redemption...

 

[JonC]

There you have it folks... all scripture that refutes Calvinism is "spam".

I love the circular logic in that post.

It's filler....a way of connecting the important facts while keeping the flow of the narrative moving...not spam.

 

[agedman]

show me them

Ok, here is the opening remarks of 1 Peter, broken down to “show” you.

Depravity of unregenerate
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens (note: the aliens were believers, no longer citizens of this world)


Election:

, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Irresistible Grace

by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


Both election and irresistible grace:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

preservation and perseverance of the saints:
4to obtain an inheritance which isimperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[agedman]

makes no sense whatsoever! Let me illustrate. I have a 100 jobs, and tell the WHOLE WORLD that ANY can apply for them. Then, when ALL do come for the jobs, I say to them, sorry, I know I said ALL, but I only meant a FEW! This is deception.

Did you not have a criterion for who to select for the jobs?

Such a criterion is not obligated to be published.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Saved-By-Grace,

You are blinded by your "Calvinism" and therefore cannot see or accept that "ordination to salvation" is NOT taught in the Bible. tell me something, IF, as you guys think, that God has ordained only the elect to salvation,

ooopps....except maybe for this;
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Ok

Depravity of unregenerate
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens (note: the aliens were believers, no longer citizens of this world)


Election:

, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Irresistible Grace

by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


Both election and irresistible grace:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

preservation and perseverance of the saints:
4to obtain an inheritance which isimperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Oh, but I won’t count on the Scriptures bringing you not awareness of the truth, for one such as yourself is typically biasedly blinded.

You serious?

1. Peter was speaking of those Jews who were living in a foreign land which was not their own, as these were considered as "exiles", as the Greek has it.

2. Where does it say here, that these were "chosen" to salvation? I doubt very much if ALL these Peter writes about here, were "the elect" of God. All he is here referring to, is that the Jews had a special relationship with God.

3. The Greek preposition, "εἰς", here translated "to" obey, is also used as "because of", as in Jesus saying that the people of Nineveh repented "εἰς", because of, the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). also in Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for (εἰς, because of) the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.". No sinner is saved by water baptism, but because they had truly repented.

4. I agree