Why I am not a Calvinist....

[anerlogios]

To some, they are content in only dealing with verses, usually out of its contextual meaning (like Acts 13:48), so that they can further push their own "theology", regardless of whether it contradicts the teaching of the Holy Bible!

How do you feel Acts 13:48 is being used out of context?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thats exactly my point! Reformed and Calvinistic theology is more concerned with their own understanding of the Bible, than what it really does say. Like their dealing with certain passages in the Bible, which they misrepresent to promote their warped "theology"!

What is warped about trying to be biblical? But truly this Calvinists vs Arminian is just foolishness. When I listen to Rogers I frankly was disheartened... he painted a picture of God but ignored certain scripture that would have caused his synario to have collapse... but all the while I was thinking that here is a man who surely knows scripture... he will get around to it, he will explain it to us, but no he never did. He was content to have them bask in his enterpitation without mention of anything that could contend. Frankly I found that disheartening.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

How do you feel Acts 13:48 is being used out of context?

The Reformed/Calvinistic view, is that it teaches "Predestination" of individuals to eternal life.

The context and Greek grammar is clearly against this.

Firstly, the Greek word rendered "ordained", is the verb, "τάσσω", which has nothing to do with any "preordaining" or "predetermined", or "pre" anything. It simply means, "appoint, form, array, marshal", with nothing "before" in the verb.

Secondly, for those who know some Greek grammar, like some on here, they should know, that Greek verbs that are passive and middle in "voice" (action), are not always easy to determine, as contextual usage is looked at to see what is meant. In verse 46 it is very clear, that the Jews heard the Gospel, and "they considered themselves (self action, middle voice) unworthy of eternal life", not something that God has predetermined through "election". Then Paul takes this same Message to the Gentiles, who were told "were pleased" to hear, and therefore "marshaled themselves", by their accepting this message, with the Lord. Where again the "middle voice" is understood. I was challenged by someone here on this, and produced some Greek scholars who have shown what I say to be correct!

Ones personal theology should have noting to do with our determining of any passage of Scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is it possible to come to any accurate interpretation of a verse without looking at the whole tenor of Scripture??

No... that’s pure deception on the part of the evil one in order to separate

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

What is warped about trying to be biblical? But truly this Calvinists vs Arminian is just foolishness. When I listen to Rogers I frankly was disheartened... he painted a picture of God but ignored certain scripture that would have caused his synario to have collapse... but all the while I was thinking that here is a man who surely knows scripture... he will get around to it, he will explain it to us, but no he never did. He was content to have them bask in his enterpitation without mention of anything that could contend. Frankly I found that disheartening.

For anyone who believes in the predestination of the elect to salvation, would have to also believe in the predestination of the non-elect to damnation. This is what Augustine taught, because he saw that you cannot have the one without the other.

 

[anerlogios]

For anyone who believes in the predestination of the elect to salvation, would have to also believe in the predestination of the non-elect to damnation. This is what Augustine taught, because he saw that you cannot have the one without the other.

I agree with you on that.

 

[anerlogios]

The Reformed/Calvinistic view, is that it teaches "Predestination" of individuals to eternal life.

The context and Greek grammar is clearly against this.

Firstly, the Greek word rendered "ordained", is the verb, "τάσσω", which has nothing to do with any "preordaining" or "predetermined", or "pre" anything. It simply means, "appoint, form, array, marshal", with nothing "before" in the verb.

Secondly, for those who know some Greek grammar, like some on here, they should know, that Greek verbs that are passive and middle in "voice" (action), are not always easy to determine, as contextual usage is looked at to see what is meant. In verse 46 it is very clear, that the Jews heard the Gospel, and "they considered themselves (self action, middle voice) unworthy of eternal life", not something that God has predetermined through "election". Then Paul takes this same Message to the Gentiles, who were told "were pleased" to hear, and therefore "marshaled themselves", by their accepting this message, with the Lord. Where again the "middle voice" is understood. I was challenged by someone here on this, and produced some Greek scholars who have shown what I say to be correct!

Ones personal theology should have noting to do with our determining of any passage of Scripture.

I do agree with τάσσω meaning appointed. So would you say “all who had been appointed to eternal life believed” is an accurate translation of that verse?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

For anyone who believes in the predestination of the elect to salvation, would have to also believe in the predestination of the non-elect to damnation. This is what Augustine taught, because he saw that you cannot have the one without the other.

I don’t even profess to agree with his logic. If God has graced me with his love then that love will carry me forth in spite of myself... see since he first love me that grace he gave me has turned the lights on... I see him for what he is and love him and that is why he is my Lord and Savior. There is a reason why the other guy doesn’t see it known only to God and I am content with that. After all He is God, he is the creator, He is Sovereign.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I do agree with τάσσω meaning appointed. So would you say “all who had been appointed to eternal life believed” is an accurate translation of that verse?

I have no problem with appointed. The issue here is who does the appointing, and does the word ever have the meaning "pre"? The context, verses 46 and 48 taken together, where the rejection of the Gospel by the Jews, was a "self act"; corresponding to this, is the action of the Gentiles, which also must be a "self act", by their accepting.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I don’t even profess to agree with his logic. If God has graced me with his love then that love will carry me forth in spite of myself... see since he first love me that grace he gave me has turned the lights on... I see him for what he is and love him and that is why he is my Lord and Savior. There is a reason why the other guy doesn’t see it known only to God and I am content with that. After all He is God, he is the creator, He is Sovereign.

You saying that God created the greater majority of His own creation, to be damned forever? Then on what basis does He save any? Bear in mind that the nation of Israel were also "elect", and yet they were cast aside because of their unbelief, as Hebrews and Romans tell us. Paul's reasoning in both places shows that also the Gentiles can be thrust out if they follow the example of Israel.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You saying that God created the greater majority of His own creation, to be damned forever? Then on what basis does He save any? Bear in mind that the nation of Israel were also "elect", and yet they were cast aside because of their unbelief, as Hebrews and Romans tell us. Paul's reasoning in both places shows that also the Gentiles can be thrust out if they follow the example of Israel.

I’m not saying at all... I’m saying he is sovereign and I can’t fathom His ways and I don’t even try anymore. Sure I plum for answers through the Bible but I’m human... I can’t completely understand His mind.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

May I say further my trust is put in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit so I’m humbled that He has given me the Grace that leads me into belief...one that is humbled

 

[Iconoclast]

This is odd. This board has repeatedly been plagued by cage stage Calvinists who slash and burn a swath through fellow Christians who disagree with them and refuse to show them Christian compassion and who extend their wrath beyond soteriology to every minute detail of doctrine and, indeed, practice.

There is a different dynamic on a message board than a local assembly.
Message boards attract cage stage persons as there is no shortage of protagonists .
No one is quite accountable to others as in a local assembly where private face to face interaction can happen.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You saying that God created the greater majority of His own creation, to be damned forever?

According to Revelation 7:9, there is 'a great multitude which no one could number.......standing before the throne and before the Lamb.' May I ask
1. Why are you presuming to number them when the text says no one can number them?
2. How the number gets either bigger or smaller whether Calvinism or Arminianism is true?

Then on what basis does He save any?

'What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Romans 9:14-16

Bear in mind that the nation of Israel were also "elect", and yet they were cast aside because of their unbelief, as Hebrews and Romans tell us. Paul's reasoning in both places shows that also the Gentiles can be thrust out if they follow the example of Israel.

'For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people......for all shall know Me from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more' (Hebrews 8:10-12). God's New Covenant people have His law written on their hearts.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is a different dynamic on a message board than a local assembly.
Message boards attract cage stage persons as there is no shortage of protagonists .
No one is quite accountable to others as in a local assembly where private face to face interaction can happen.

True

 

[rockytopva]

I am in my mid-50's and never married. I met a girl at work who I thought was right for me. Come to find out she is Baptist... Well, not that big of problem! But... The more that woman talked! Come to find out she sees nothing wrong with mixing the party and sex life with Christianity. On confronting her over this she looks at me and says....

"Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Apparently she knows enough about OSAS doctrine to think that she is eternally secure and immune from any kind of punishment.

John Calvin... I wish the Catholics would have done him in while he was in France!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

According to Revelation 7:9, there is 'a great multitude which no one could number.......standing before the throne and before the Lamb.' May I ask
1. Why are you presuming to number them when the text says no one can number them?
2. How the number gets either bigger or smaller whether Calvinism or Arminianism is true?

'What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Romans 9:14-16

'For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people......for all shall know Me from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more' (Hebrews 8:10-12). God's New Covenant people have His law written on their hearts.

you forgot Romans 11:32, "For God hath shut up ALL unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon ALL."

 

[rockytopva]

am in my mid-50's and never married. I met a girl at work who I thought was right for me. Come to find out she is Baptist... Well, not that big of problem! But... The more that woman talked! Come to find out she sees nothing wrong with mixing the party and sex life with Christianity. On confronting her over this she looks at me and says....

"Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Apparently she knows enough about OSAS doctrine to think that she is eternally secure and immune from any kind of punishment.

John Calvin... I wish the Catholics would have done him in while he was in France!

I was brought up Baptist and into a very large youth group, in which everyone thought were saved. Come to find out they were a very party hardy bunch! One day they invited a young lady named Theresa to one of their parties. Theresa, who had no family in the church, was shocked to find them partying and smoking dope. Theresa told the leadership on them. They then fired a good pastor and that church has not done well since.

My opinion on OSAS is that it gives people a false sense of security. The bible says over and over again that this is a race to be run, and that he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

 

[thatbrian]

Is it possible to come to any accurate interpretation of a verse without looking at the whole tenor of Scripture??

Ultimately, I think not. There are some texts which are apparently simple, such as John 3:16, but how well do we understand that verse if we don't understand the Fall? How well do we understand it if we do not understand Federal Headship or the Law?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Reformed/Calvinistic view, is that it [Acts 13:48] teaches "Predestination" of individuals to eternal life.

The context and Greek grammar is clearly against this.

Firstly, the Greek word rendered "ordained", is the verb, "τάσσω", which has nothing to do with any "preordaining" or "predetermined", or "pre" anything. It simply means, "appoint, form, array, marshal", with nothing "before" in the verb.

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed' (NKJV).

Secondly, for those who know some Greek grammar, like some on here, they should know, that Greek verbs that are passive and middle in "voice" (action), are not always easy to determine, as contextual usage is looked at to see what is meant. In verse 46 it is very clear, that the Jews heard the Gospel, and "they considered themselves (self action, middle voice) unworthy of eternal life", not something that God has predetermined through "election". Then Paul takes this same Message to the Gentiles, who were told "were pleased" to hear, and therefore "marshaled themselves", by their accepting this message, with the Lord. Where again the "middle voice" is understood. I was challenged by someone here on this, and produced some Greek scholars who have shown what I say to be correct!

The Greek word tetagmenoi is the Perfect Passive Participle of tasso. Perfect because it refers to a once-for-all event; passive because the appointing happened to these Gentiles. It is ridiculous to suppose that anyone can appoint himself once-for-all to eternal life. 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb' (Revelation 7:10).

'The violent attempts which have been made to eliminate the doctrine of election or predestination from this verse, by rendering the last verb, disposed, arrayed etc., or by violent constructions, such as that of Socinius (as many as believed were ordained to eternal life!) can never change the simple fact that wherever this verb occurs elsewhere, it invariably expresses the exertion of power or authority, divine or human, and being in the passive voice, cannot denote mere disposition, much less self-determination...' [J.A. Alexander: The Acts of the Apostles]

One's personal theology should have noting to do with our determining of any passage of Scripture.

Amen!

 

[thatbrian]

I am in my mid-50's and never married. I met a girl at work who I thought was right for me. Come to find out she is Baptist... Well, not that big of problem! But... The more that woman talked! Come to find out she sees nothing wrong with mixing the party and sex life with Christianity. On confronting her over this she looks at me and says....

"Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Apparently she knows enough about OSAS doctrine to think that she is eternally secure and immune from any kind of punishment.

John Calvin... I wish the Catholics would have done him in while he was in France!

Is she a Calvinist? Not likely. She sounds like the product of Pelagian/Semi-Pelagian-decisional-walk-the-aisle "Christianity.