why I am not a Calvinist

[37818]

1]Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit,

Sounds true to me.

Okay...I asked you three questions at the bottom of this post. Take some time,answer which one you think is correct, then explain how it manifests itself...what does it mean, what is it teaching

Do you think, it is every person ever born since Adam and EVE?

. . . I understand it to refer to the avaibility of the "grace of God that bringeth salvation to all men." Not that everyone will hear . . . .

Do you think it is every person since Israel was a nation?

. . . I understand it to refer to the avaibility of the "grace of God that bringeth salvation to all men." Not that everyone will hear . . . .

Do you think it is every person after the cross?

. . . I understand it to refer to the avaibility of the "grace of God that bringeth salvation to all men." Not that everyone will hear . . . .

Titus 1:2. Titus 2:11.

 

[37818]

What did you expect? Monochrome & brevity?

Brevity in order to give a concise objection, if that is to be the case. Blurring of meanings may not be helpful. There is what a text says and then there is how text is interpreted to mean. Either reading something into the text it does not say or dissallowing what it does say.

 

[JonC]

Brevity in order to give a concise objection, if that is to be the case. Blurring of meanings may not be helpful. There is what a text says and then there is how text is interpreted to mean. Either reading something into the text it does not say or dissallowing what it does say.

No text dictates either interpretation. The entire issue is one of systematic theology. So the answer rests in "reasoning together", not accepting or rejecting Scripture.

These are understandings we are discussing - not Scripture itself. I am a Calvinist because I believe the five points correct. It is not a view I would squander my breath defending, but I do think it can be explained.

All we can hope for is to better understand one another. Then we can evaluate our own positions.

 

[37818]

If it helps, "irresistible grace" does not mean that men do not resist. It means that God's plan for men will ultimately be accomplished.

The idea does not stand alone and it is very much dependent on philosophy (how one works through the philosophical aspect of theology).

Some do view this as God conquering men by force (typically these are not folk who affirm the idea).

Most of us who affirm the points believe, I think, that this grace is irristable in the sense men are persuaded by the work of God with the crux being that God's plan is going to come to fruition.

I am fine with a concept of irristable grace, in which God gives a changed mind to some and so some believe. And so can be deemed to be irristable to them. But again, in my understand of God's grace being available to all men, it is not universally irristable, therefore not irristable.

 

[JonC]

I am fine with a concept of irristable grace, in which God gives a changed mind to some and so some believe. And so can be deemed to be irristable to them. But again, in my understand of God's grace being available to all men, it is not universally irristable, therefore not irristable.

I believe grace is avaliable to all in the sense Christ is the Savior of all men. But I believe this grace is paticular in the sense Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe.

Again, this is very much philosophical. Ut depends on how the issues are framed and questions answered.

 

[37818]

I am a Calvinist because I believe the five points correct.

Ok. Will, disageements where and why, I think are important to understand. And not merely to agree to disagree, but where possible know and understand it. Inerpretations do read something into or disallow. Titus 2:11, "hath appeared," I understand, available, but not to be understood, all will hear. The into, "available to all." The disallowed, "all to hear."

 

[JonC]

Ok. Will, disageements where and why, I think are important to understand. And not merely to agree to disagree, but where possible know and understand it. Inerpretations do read something into or disallow. Titus 2:11, "hath appeared," I understand, available, but not to be understood, all will hear. The into, "available to all." The disallowed, "all to hear."

To illustrate, let's look at Edwardian Calvinism (let's use Edward's example of predestination).

If God is omniscient then God created men knowing their final states and God is not wrong in His belief. Our final states are, then, by definition predestined (note "decreed" is left at liberty).

If God is omniscient then God by the act of creation itself chose to create individuals who will be saved and individuals who will not be saved. Nothing can change this without God being less than omniscient.

Those whom God created to be saved are going to be saved. They are not going to prove God wrong.

 

[1689Dave]

I will make the time.

Using the TULIP as a guide.
T
I believe in the total deprivaty and inability of the unregenerate man to accept and correctly understand the gospel of grace without God's intervention. Romans 3:11. 2 Corinthians 4:3.

Now the word of God is explicit. Faith precedes regeneration and salvation. Acts of the Apostles 16:31. Ephesians 2:8-9, ". . . through faith . . . ."

It is my understanding God intervenes with sancification of His Spirit through His truth by which faith can come. John 17:17. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. John 16:7-11. Romans 10:17.

God through His creation gives faith to all mankind, Romans 10:17-18. Psalms 19:4.

So there will be no excuse when men ultimately resist His Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

U
I believe God's election is conditional, not unconditional. The primary condtion is it is wholly unmerited on the part of those whom He has chosen. John 3:16. Faith in His Son is a condition without any merit on the part of those who believe. Romans 4:4-5. Titus 3:5.

L
I do not believe the provided atonement, propitiation, is limited. 1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. . . ." I do believe that this serves two purposes: First, to make our Lord Judge of all, and second to allow Him to be our Savior and secure salvation for His elect. And that making Him Lord of both the dead, the lost and the living, the saved. Romans 8:34. Romans 14:9-11.

I
I do not believe God grace is irrestable. I believe God's grace is there for all mankind, Titus 2:11. And that it is in evidence that men resist it, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

P
I do believe in the perseverance of God's elect. ". . . he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. . . ." -- Matthew 24:13. ". . . [Love] endureth all things. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 13:7. ". . . every one that loveth is born of God, . . ." -- 1 John 4:7. That it is God alone who does the saving, does the keeping, ". . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . ." -- John 10:28.

Please, if you have a disagreement, do only one point per post. Please keep your argument concise. Thank you.

You can read scripture two ways. "Whoever believes will be saved" = a trait those whom God saves share in common. Or, "Whoever chooses to believe will be saved" = a law people obey to earn salvation.

But, both Calvinists and Arminians turn the gospel into law which must be obeyed for salvation. The Calvinists says God makes us willing to obey through the Holy Spirit. The Arminian says we obey in the flesh to receive the Holy Spirit.

The truth is, God regenerates all those whom he saves so they naturally believe. And it is the nature of the New Birth to love holiness and hate sin.

So I think Calvinism brings us the closest to understanding sin and grace but scripture alone fine tunes it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok. Will, disageements where and why, I think are important to understand. And not merely to agree to disagree, but where possible know and understand it. Inerpretations do read something into or disallow. Titus 2:11, "hath appeared," I understand, available, but not to be understood, all will hear. The into, "available to all." The disallowed, "all to hear."

So, you are saying Titus 2:11 is important because it says salvation" has appeared", but you do not think it is important to understand it beyond that? So you do not feel any need to solve the puzzle?
Why then do you introduce this in discussing irrestible grace as it would be off topic?


The issue is there is grace that is resisted, and there is grace that is not ultimately resisted.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sounds true to me.
Titus 1:2. Titus 2:11.

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;


This sounds true because it is. God promised it to those He elected, he will save each and every one of them.

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Iconoclast]

I am fine with a concept of irristable grace, in which God gives a changed mind to some and so some believe. And so can be deemed to be irristable to them. But again, in my understand of God's grace being available to all men, it is not universally irristable, therefore not irristable.

Okay, so we agree on this point.

 

[Iconoclast]

37818,

T
I believe in the total deprivaty and inability of the unregenerate man to accept and correctly understand the gospel of grace without God's intervention. Romans 3:11. 2 Corinthians 4:3.[/QUOTE]

I have a theory that all true believers are Calvinists, some stronger, some not as strong on each of the 5 points.. This shows you agree on 2 of the 5 points so far.

Now the word of God is explicit. Faith precedes regeneration and salvation. Acts of the Apostles 16:31. Ephesians 2:8-9, ". . . through faith . . . ."

It is my understanding God intervenes with sancification of His Spirit through His truth by which faith can come. John 17:17. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. John 16:7-11. Romans 10:17.

Through faith...faith is the instrumentality by which a sinner lays hold of Jesus savingly. It is the gift of God that happens simultaneously at regeneration

God through His creation gives faith to all mankind, Romans 10:17-18. Psalms 19:4.

All mankind does not have saving faith or they would believe. Scripture says not all men have faith

So there will be no excuse when men ultimately resist His Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

Men are fully responsible with no excuse

 

[37818]

"Whoever chooses to believe will be saved" = a law people obey to earn salvation.

A false gospel. Romans 4:4-5. Romans 6:23. Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[37818]

the gospel into law which must be obeyed for salvation.

No, not into law. Not to be understood as a work. Grace is the Law that must be obeyed. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, ". . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel . . . ." It must be received as the gift it is in order to obey it. The religious and lost do not understand this, ". . . if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3.

 

[1689Dave]

No. Grace is the Law that must be obeyed. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, ". . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel . . . ." It must be received as the gift it is in order to obey it. The religious and lost do not understand this, ". . . if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3.

Grace is not law. It is the opposite. But those whom God saves will obey the gospel including non-resistance of evil.

 

[37818]

Grace is not law. It is the opposite. But those whom God saves will obey the gospel including non-resistance of evil.

There is a contrast between the Law and grace. John 1:17; Romans 4:15-16; 1 John 3:4; Romans 5:20; Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:4.

It is grace alone that must be obeyed. Galatians 2:21. Matthew 7:21-23. Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31.

 

[1689Dave]

There is a contrast between the Law and grace. John 1:17; Romans 4:15-16; 1 John 3:4; Romans 5:20; Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:4.

It is grace alone that must be obeyed. Galatians 2:21. Matthew 7:21-23. Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31.

It's more like this. You are in a coma starving to death. A kind soul comes in and pays for your hospital stay in which case they feed your intravenously. Some time later you awaken to find out what happened. And you are forever grateful to the kind soul who rescued you. And you go and do likewise.

God saves us when we can't believe or obey, turning us into obedient believers.

 

[Van]

I will make the time.

Using the TULIP as a guide.
T
I believe in the total depravity and inability of the unregenerate man to accept and correctly understand the gospel of grace without God's intervention. Romans 3:11. 2 Corinthians 4:3.

Now the word of God is explicit. Faith precedes regeneration and salvation. Acts of the Apostles 16:31. Ephesians 2:8-9, ". . . through faith . . . ."

It is my understanding God intervenes with sanctification of His Spirit through His truth by which faith can come. John 17:17. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. John 16:7-11. Romans 10:17.

God through His creation gives faith to all mankind, Romans 10:17-18. Psalms 19:4.

So there will be no excuse when men ultimately resist His Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

U
I believe God's election is conditional, not unconditional. The primary condtion is it is wholly unmerited on the part of those whom He has chosen. John 3:16. Faith in His Son is a condition without any merit on the part of those who believe. Romans 4:4-5. Titus 3:5.

L
I do not believe the provided atonement, propitiation, is limited. 1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. . . ." I do believe that this serves two purposes: First, to make our Lord Judge of all, and second to allow Him to be our Savior and secure salvation for His elect. And that making Him Lord of both the dead, the lost and the living, the saved. Romans 8:34. Romans 14:9-11.

I
I do not believe God grace is irrestable. I believe God's grace is there for all mankind, Titus 2:11. And that it is in evidence that men resist it, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

P
I do believe in the perseverance of God's elect. ". . . he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. . . ." -- Matthew 24:13. ". . . [Love] endureth all things. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 13:7. ". . . every one that loveth is born of God, . . ." -- 1 John 4:7. That it is God alone who does the saving, does the keeping, ". . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . ." -- John 10:28.

Please, if you have a disagreement, do only one point per post. Please keep your argument concise. Thank you.

Thanks for your clear (or almost clear) statement of beliefs. We agree on three points, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, God offers but does not compel salvation, and once saved, always saved. We disagree on the other two points

I believe unregenerate people can understand and respond to "spiritual milk," 1 Corinthians 3:1, and our individual election for salvation is through faith in the truth, as credited by God, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[37818]

God saves us when we can't believe or obey, . . .

Yeah, only if one actually dies as an actual child. Mark 10:14.

 

[1689Dave]

Yeah, only if one actually dies as an actual child. Mark 10:14.

Paul says we cannot discern spiritual truth (Christ) unless born again.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

= false Christ unless born again.