why I am not a Calvinist

[37818]

I broke the statement into 17 fragments....
Answer one at a time ,that should work.

Maybe.

2]out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

God can only sanctify those who are open to truth. John 17:17. John 18:37.

 

[Dave G]

Jesus forgave a thief dangling on a cross, knowing full well the thief had converted out of plain fear.

I once thought that, many years ago.
I no longer see it that way, due to reading the Bible for along time now, and seeing God fill in the details behind how and why a person actually comes to Christ.
But back then, I assumed that it was out of mortal fear...which, by itself is not a trustworthy motivator.

In someone who fears ( not Biblical "fear", which is a profound respect and reverence for something or someone ), that "afraidness" can only go so far...take the object or emotion of fear away, and the person who was once afraid of punishment, goes right back to their old behavior.
I see it in society every day.

But impress upon a person the need to obey out of duty and especially love, and that person can now be trusted, at least mostly, not to go back to their old ways.

Another point:
In the underlined, can you think of any Scriptures that tell you that plain fear was the reason he believed on Christ, or is that a conlusion based on what seems to be?


I think it's worth investigating.

 

[Reformed1689]

I am a supporter of the bible broadcasting network and am also supporting a niece in going to Liberty University in Lynchburg, VA. I am also very active in the media ministry at work at have shared the gospel with many. I am Pentecostal, but not anti-Baptist either. One guy, after reading one of the books I gave him, wanted to get saved, but not in the Pentecostal Holiness church that I attend. He explained to me that he was brought up Baptist and would rather go to a Baptist church.

A guy I worked with is a Calvinistic Baptist by the name of Ray and I looked him up. Ray said they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and there I brought my friend. After the film he went tearfully up... But there was no altar! They took him to a room, in which I followed, and then proceeded to talk him out of it! I am like... He has tears running down his cheek! The man is ready to get saved! We then prayed the sinners prayer and my friend got saved.

That whole episode is why I am not Calvinist.

What does this have to do with Calvinism?

 

[Dave G]

That thief never studied the Bible, never attended synagogue or church and never made amends to those he wronged.

According to God's word, every Jew, at least those who were obedient to the Law, attended synagogue, as far as I know.
Being exposed to the Scriptures was a fact of life for them, at least for the most part.
Being under the Law of Moses, he would have been exposed to those principles...following them?

Perhaps not, at least inwardly.

He simply said "Jesus remember me" and Jesus promised, "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

I agree.
The question I have for you is, can you think of any Scriptural reason, without any provocation like external preaching, that he would have had a change of heart right there on his cross... about to die for a crime he committed, while the other thief didn't?

By the way, welcome to the Baptist Board forums.

 

[Dave G]

God can only sanctify those who are open to truth

To my way of thinking, He can sanctify ( purify ) anyone He wants.
But perhaps I misunderstand your statement...

Going by what you appear to be saying, I see that you are stating that a man being open to the truth, is the deciding factor in permitting God to sanctify him.
in other words, man permits God, and then God acts.

From my perspective and from what I understand from Scripture, is that the reason that I am open to the truth, is because God changed me on the inside...I am now a new creature in Christ.
He opened my heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), so that I would "attend" to the truth of my helplessness before Him.
That is one of the things that gets me labeled as a "Calvinist".


In addition and according to Scripture, I see the reason why people are not open to the truth, in a wholesale fashion:

" Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:46-47 )

 

[37818]

Going by what you appear to be saying, I see that you are stating that a man being open to the truth, is the deciding factor in permitting God t sanctify him.
in other words, man permits God, and then God acts.

Did you even understand Jesus' claim, ". . . Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. . . ."?

 

[Iconoclast]

In other words, you want me to figure out why I should change my mind to your view.

Or..in other words...I do not think you understand what you are objecting to, I do not think you understand the term irresistible grace.
I think we can clarify it for you even if you oppose yourself .
HOW about that.
I doubt your objection can hold up,the OP.

 

[Iconoclast]

Maybe.
God can only sanctify those who are open to truth. John 17:17. John 18:37.

That verse is spoken of believers...unbelievers do not become sanctified to be conformed to Jesus.
This does not address the issue.

 

[Iconoclast]

Maybe.
God can only sanctify those who are open to truth. John 17:17. John 18:37.

Respond to the statement..Does God call them out of a state of sin?

 

[37818]

Or..in other words...I do not think you understand what you are objecting to, I do not think you understand the term irresistible grace.
I think we can clarify it for you even if you oppose yourself .
HOW about that.
I doubt your objection can hold up,the OP.

Romans 2:1. Matthew 7:1-2.

 

[Reformed1689]

If this question is not pertinent to your discussion on Calvinism I apologize in advance.
Jesus forgave a thief dangling on a cross, knowing full well the thief had converted out of plain fear. That thief never studied the Bible, never attended synagogue or church and never made amends to those he wronged. He simply said "Jesus remember me" and Jesus promised, "Today you will be with me in Paradise".
My question is, was the thief one of the "elect" in the Calvinist's view?

Yes, why would he not be?

 

[37818]

That verse is spoken of believers...unbelievers do not become sanctified to be conformed to Jesus.
This does not address the issue.

We disagee. I hold the view point sanctification comes first. Prove otherwise.

 

[Reformed1689]

We disagee. I hold the view point sanctification comes first. Prove otherwise.

Considering the verse is talking about those who are already believers, this would prove otherwise. Where do you get that sanctification comes before salvation?

 

[Iconoclast]

We disagee. I hold the view point sanctification comes first. Prove otherwise.

You suggested that sanctification comes first. Now if you're talkin about before the foundation of the earth God elected the Sinners who he was going to save and Sanctified I could agree that sanctification comes first is that what you're talkin about are you talkin about that God has set aside these centers that he's elected to become holy is that what you mean if not you might have to give more than one sentence or two sentences to explain how you see how this takes place

 

[Yeshua1]

I will make the time.

Using the TULIP as a guide.
T
I believe in the total deprivaty and inability of the unregenerate man to accept and correctly understand the gospel of grace without God's intervention. Romans 3:11. 2 Corinthians 4:3.

Now the word of God is explicit. Faith precedes regeneration and salvation. Acts of the Apostles 16:31. Ephesians 2:8-9, ". . . through faith . . . ."

It is my understanding God intervenes with sancification of His Spirit through His truth by which faith can come. John 17:17. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. John 16:7-11. Romans 10:17.

God through His creation gives faith to all mankind, Romans 10:17-18. Psalms 19:4.

So there will be no excuse when men ultimately resist His Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

U
I believe God's election is conditional, not unconditional. The primary condtion is it is wholly unmerited on the part of those whom He has chosen. John 3:16. Faith in His Son is a condition without any merit on the part of those who believe. Romans 4:4-5. Titus 3:5.

L
I do not believe the provided atonement, propitiation, is limited. 1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. . . ." I do believe that this serves two purposes: First, to make our Lord Judge of all, and second to allow Him to be our Savior and secure salvation for His elect. And that making Him Lord of both the dead, the lost and the living, the saved. Romans 8:34. Romans 14:9-11.

I
I do not believe God grace is irrestable. I believe God's grace is there for all mankind, Titus 2:11. And that it is in evidence that men resist it, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

P
I do believe in the perseverance of God's elect. ". . . he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. . . ." -- Matthew 24:13. ". . . [Love] endureth all things. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 13:7. ". . . every one that loveth is born of God, . . ." -- 1 John 4:7. That it is God alone who does the saving, does the keeping, ". . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . ." -- John 10:28.

Please, if you have a disagreement, do only one point per post. Please keep your argument concise. Thank you.

All sinners deserve eternal Hell, so the grace of God does not have to be applied by Him towards all lost sinners in order to be "fair", correct?

 

[37818]

You suggested that sanctification comes first. Now if you're talkin about before the foundation of the earth God elected the Sinners who he was going to save and Sanctified I could agree that sanctification comes first is that what you're talkin about are you talkin about that God has set aside these centers that he's elected to become holy is that what you mean if not you might have to give more than one sentence or two sentences to explain how you see how this takes place

From, not before, ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. Note: the sanctification precedes belief.

 

[37818]

All sinners deserve eternal Hell, so the grace of God does not have to be applied by Him towards all lost sinners in order to be "fair", correct?

I do not understand what you are asking. Since it is my understanding that God's grace precedes faith and faith precedes salvation.

 

[Dave G]

Did you even understand Jesus' claim, ". . . Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. . . ."?

Yes, I did.
I'll list the passage that I believe that you are referring to:

"Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." ( John 18:37 ).


The way I see this stating, Jesus is telling Pilate that He was sent to bear witness of "the truth"... Himself ( John 5:31, John 8:14 ).
Pilate asks Him in the very next verse, " Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?" ( John 18:38 )
The Lord does not reply, because, to me, He already has said what He wanted to say for the benefit of the reader ( John 20:30-31 ), His sheep, knowing that it would be inspired of the Holy Ghost for John to write down.

I see the Lord speaking, once again, spiritually ( please see John 6:63 ), not carnally...
Not according to the "natural" man's understanding, but according to the "spiritual" man's.
The born-again reader of His spiritual words.

Purposefully not giving Pilate answers that he would understand, is fully within His right to answer or not to answer, as He is God and is beholden to no man's examining of Him... or us even asking, "what doest thou?" ( Romans 9:19-20, Daniel 4:35 ).

In addition, I see the Lord "being evasive" and speaking spiritual things in the parables to others...
Why?
Because they are "without".

" And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:" ( Mark 4:11 )
To them that are "without" ( outside the body of Christ ), all things are done in parables to conceal the truth from them.

Pontius Pilate was, "without".
Christ then chose to speak to him in this way.
Why?
Again, because it is God's prerogative to hide or reveal Himself to whosoever He wishes ( Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22 ), to be gracious and merciful to whomsoever He wishes ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-16 ).


Having established that, I see this:
He is telling Pilate that everyone who is "of God"/ "of the truth" ( "of Christ", of His body ), "hears" His voice...and they do ( John 10:27 ).
That is why I made the connection with John 8:47.

"He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."


God's blessings to you.

 

[Iconoclast]

From, not before, ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. Note: the sanctification precedes belief.

This verse has nothing to do with irresistible grace.
It is a good verse however that we can get to.

 

[Iconoclast]

From, not before, ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. Note: the sanctification precedes belief.

God from the beginning...the beginning of what?

Has chosen you to salvation.....who was chosen?