Why I believe in the Eternal Son (Eternal Sonship)

[Calminian]

Did God change?
In some way or another, did the Triune Godhead change at the incarnation?
Scripture says that God does not change.

That is why it matters if the Son was always the Son and the Father was always the Father. It raises the question "Did God change?" If God changed, was he less "perfect" before or after the change?

Yes, I get the argument. I would say the second person of the Trinity never changed in the God aspect of his nature. But I do believe he took on flesh.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. And I know he wasn't the God-man from all eternity. Taking on flesh was a change that happened at a moment in time.

That said, I believe we agree on that. Feel free to clarity.

 

[Calminian]

...
Son = second and inferior, but Christ was only inferior to the Father in his humanity:
my Father is greater than I (Jn.14:28)

Now this may be an argument that drives the opposition, and I can se why. I don't think the hierarchal relationship has ever changed in the Trinity and don't see evidence of this.

 

[Alan Gross]

A very none specific. Wisdom and Understand are sister spirits, Proverbs 7:4, ". . . Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman: . . ."

Proverbs 7:4 Commentaries: Say to wisdom, "You are my sister," And call understanding your intimate friend;

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister,.... = Intimately acquainted, greatly beloved, and highly delighted in: this may be understood both of the Gospel, the wisdom of God in a mystery, which men should be conversant with, be strongly affected to, and take delight and pleasure in; and of Christ, the essential Wisdom of God, and who stands in the relation of a brother to his people, and should be respected as such;

and call understanding thy kinswoman;

or "kinsman" (a); such Christ is in our nature, our "goel", our near kinsman, partaker of the same flesh and blood, and therefore is not ashamed to call us brethren, nor should we be ashamed to call him kinsman: moreover, his Word and Gospel, and the understanding of it, should be familiar to us; it should be well "known" (b) by us, as the word used signifies, and dwell richly in us.

(a) "cognatum", Piscator. (b) "Notam", Montanus, Michaelis.

...

The Election of Men, INCLUDES & RESPECTS
the ETERNAL GODHEAD’S Preparation & Choice
of the Human Nature of Jesus Christ,
AS ‘A MAN’, to BE GIVEN the GRACE of Union
with the Son of God.
***

God Prepared JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS GOD The ETERNAL SON,
a Body, or an Human Nature for ‘THE MAN’,
THE GOD-MAN JESUS.
***
GOD The FATHER CHOSE to PREPARE
Jesus Christ A HUMAN BODY
Within The GODHEAD’S Eternal Purposes
and Decrees, FROM ETERNITY PAST
as we may SEE REVEALED, in Hebrews 10:5;
***

“Wherefore when He ( Jesus ) Comes
into the world, He ( Jesus ) Says,
( to God The Father )

“Sacrifice and offering
You ( God The Father ) would not, but
a Body Have You ( God The Father )
Prepared Me ( Jesus )“
&
in Psalm 139:16;
***

“Your Eyes ( God The Father’s )
did See My ( Jesus’ ) Substance,
not yet being perfect”
( not yet ‘formed’ into it’s Designed Purpose )
…
The word for “substance” here,
signifies a “substance”, as if it is a bottom of yarn wound up,
or any rude or unformed lump;
…
Here, “Substance”
Designs that conglomerated mass of matter
separated in the womb, containing all the essentials
of the human frame,

but not yet distinguished
or reduced into any form or order;
***
Yet, even when in this State,
the Eyes of the Lord see It, or,
“My Substance”, Jesus’ Substance,
which was THE SUBSTANCE of HUMAN FLESH
FROM WHICH Jesus’ Body was FORMED.
***

Jesus Says God SAW ALL THE PARTS
of JESUS’ HUMAN BODY,
Distinctly.
***

“and in Your ( God’s ) Book
all My ( Jesus’ ) Members were Written,
which in Continuance were Fashioned,

when as yet there was none of them.”
***

MEANING: in the Book of God’s Eternal Mind,
and Designs,

CREATOR GOD ALMIGHTY’S PLAN
of the human body was Drawn,

All the parts of THE HUMAN BODY
were Described, and their Form, places,
and uses fixed,

Even when as yet not one HUMAN BODY
was in Actual Being;

But in Due Time ALL THE HUMAN BODIES
GOD ALMIGHTY DESIGNED in ETERNITY PAST,
WERE all exactly Formed and Fashioned
According to that HUMAN BEING’S Model
which had been Designed
in the Mind of THEIR CREATOR,
God.
***
AND IT IS ALMIGHTY ETERNAL
CREATOR GOD Who has as Perfect Knowledge
of EVERY HUMAN BEING Beforehand;
as if they were Written Down in a book before Him,

Or, as The BIBLE Says, “in Your Book
are Written all [of the human bodies],
what days they should be fashioned”;
***

THE ETERNAL GODHEAD is TELLING US
THAT not only each of the members
of the body were put down in this book,
but each of the days in which
they should be Formed
and Come into Being and Order:

When ? “when” as yet there was
“none of them”; none of those days,
before they took place, even before all Time.

In ETERNITY PAST.

1.2.1.2a: “Election” INCLUDES the Choice of the Human Nature of Jesus Christ to BE GIVEN the Grace of Union with the Son of God.

 

[Alan Gross]

1.2.1.2a: “Election” INCLUDES the Choice of the Human Nature of Jesus Christ to BE GIVEN the Grace of Union with the Son of God.

AND IT WAS THEN, In ETERNITY PAST that
among all the individuals of human nature,
to be Brought into Being by THE DESIGN
of ALMIGHTY GOD, which Rose Up
in the Divine CREATOR Mind, of THE ETERNAL GODHEAD,

FROM ETERNITY PAST, “This” ONE Individual
was Singled Out from among all the OTHER individuals
of human nature, to be Brought into Being
by ALMIGHTY GOD, and “This” Individual
HUMAN BEING WAS Appointed
to Be Placed into A Union with the Second Person
in the Godhead;
…

“This” Individual, JESUS,
was Sanctified, and Set Apart,
and Sent into the World.
…
“This” Individual, JESUS,
WAS SENT IN THIS WAY, SIMILAR
to what we see in The Illustration of Joseph;
as a type or symbol of JESUS Being Sent
into the World, when Joseph was separated
from his brethren.
***
So, this Human Nature of Jesus Christ
was Anointed with the Holy Ghost
Above His fellows,
***

and JESUS CHRIST, in HIS HUMAN BODY,
had the Gifts and Graces of the Spirit
WITHOUT MEASURE.
***
In Addition: JESUS CHRIST, The SON of GOD,
WHO IS GOD, was Raised to such Honor
and Dignity, as none of the Angels ever were,
or will be; seen in: Hebrews 1:13;
…

“But to which of the Angels
said He ( GOD ) at any time,
Sit on My Right Hand,
until I Make Your enemies
Your Footstool ?”
*****
The Human Nature of Jesus Christ
WAS ELECTED to BE GIVEN
the Grace Being United with the Son of God,
by ALMIGHTY GOD from ETERNITY PAST.
*****

ADAPTED FROM

THE GILL ARCHIVE

 

[Calminian]

Proverbs 7:4 Commentaries: Say to wisdom, "You are my sister," And call understanding your intimate friend;

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister,.... = Intimately acquainted, greatly beloved, and highly delighted in: this may be understood both of the Gospel, the wisdom of God in a mystery, which men should be conversant with, be strongly affected to, and take delight and pleasure in; and of Christ, the essential Wisdom of God, and who stands in the relation of a brother to his people, and should be respected as such;

and call understanding thy kinswoman; or "kinsman" (a); such Christ is in our nature, our "goel", our near kinsman, partaker of the same flesh and blood, and therefore is not ashamed to call us brethren, nor should we be ashamed to call him kinsman: moreover, his Word and Gospel, and the understanding of it, should be familiar to us; it should be well "known" (b) by us, as the word used signifies, and dwell richly in us.

(a) "cognatum", Piscator. (b) "Notam", Montanus, Michaelis.

If a JW comes to your door, he/she's going to eat your lunch over this. They also believe the personified wisdom in this passage is the pre-incarnate Christ. Problem is, they cite Proverbs 8 to show he was created.

12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORDa is to hate evil;
I hatec pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulersa issue decrees that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizonb on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.​

The problem for them, of course, is that wisdom in Proverbs is personified as a woman. It can't be a messianic reference. Their NWT Bible changes the female pronouns, but everyone knows their Bible is corrupt.

That said, I don't think you need these verses to argue your side.

 

[atpollard]

I really don't know where you get your "theology" from? Jesus Christ IS eternally God, Yahweh. But, the Bible is very clear that He DID change! He became the God-Man at His Incarnation, and has TWO "natures", the Divine and the Human. This is Bible FACT!

Ok, then show me where scripture states that the Second Person of the Trinity Existed, Exists or Will Exist (past present or future, take your pick) without a God nature or without a human nature. Where in the Bible did He have only 1 "nature"?

We can't just assume it, scripture has to say it ... per YOUR rules.

How about HERE:

• [Gen 2:7 NASB] 7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
• Was it when God "formed" like scooping up and molding with his hands and "breathed" like placing his mouth over Adams nostrils and blowing?
• Which person of the Trinity has hands and a mouth? ... THE SON!

Or maybe it was HERE:

• [Gen 3:8 NASB] 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
• Was it when God "walked" and people heard it, like on legs?
• Which person of the Trinity has legs? ... THE SON!

 

[Alan Gross]

"...the distinction of Persons in the Deity,
depends on the Generation of the Son;

"...take away that, which would destroy the relation between the first and second Persons, and the distinction drops;

"...and that this distinction is natural and necessary, or by the necessity of nature, and not arbitrary, or of choice and will;

"...which, if it was, it might not have been at all, or have been otherwise than it is: those who place it to the economy of the Persons in the redemption of men, have been urged with this, that if it was so, he that is called the Father, might have been called the Son;

"...and he that is called the Son, might have been called the Father {2};

"...which has so pressed them, that they have been obliged to own, that so it might have been, if it had so seemed to God, and been agreeable to his will {3}.

"Moreover, those who are in this way of thinking, and explain away the generation of the Son, and make it no other than a communion of nature, and a co-existence with the first Person, though they profess there are three Persons in the Godhead, they are not able to prove it, nor to point out that which distinguishes one from another;

"...and besides, are not able to call them by any name, only say, the one is the first Person, the other the second, and the other the third;

"... and even the reason of this order they cannot account for; for if they have their names and distinction from the economy of man's salvation, and the part they take therein, these cannot be given them antecedent to the said economy; and yet they must exist, and be considered as existing previous to it: if the first Person has the name of a Father, from his constituting and appointing Christ to be the Mediator and Saviour;

"...and the second Person the name of a Son, from his constitution as such; though the reason of such names from hence does not appear;

"...and the third Person has the name of Spirit, from any office or work undertaken by him, to breathe into men in creation or regeneration;

"...these names cannot be given them antecedent to such economy, constitution, and agreement, taking place;

"... and yet they must be considered antecedent thereunto, in some view or another.

"To such straits are men reduced, when they leave the form of sound words, which to do is dangerous, and generally leads into one error or another.

"But all this will more manifestly appear, by considering each divine person particularly, his relative property, and name pertinent to it."

 

[atpollard]

Yes, I get the argument. I would say the second person of the Trinity never changed in the God aspect of his nature. But I do believe he took on flesh.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. And I know he wasn't the God-man from all eternity. Taking on flesh was a change that happened at a moment in time.

That said, I believe we agree on that. Feel free to clarity.

Did Jesus discard his flesh at his resurrection?
If being God-Man is part of the essence of who Jesus is as the Second Person of the Trinity from his Incarnation going forward for all eternity, why is it so inconceivable that his "glory" in eternity past did not include some sort of "pre-incarnate" humanity.

Does God really "foreknow" us from before we were born? If so then something of who we are pre-existed, even if only in the mind of God.

The book of Daniel and the Fiery Furnace: The pre-incarnate "Christophanies" tend to include a body. Why? Could it be because the Son always had a body ... glorified > flesh > glorified?

 

[Alan Gross]

If a JW comes to your door, he/she's going to eat your lunch over this. They also believe the personified wisdom in this passage is the pre-incarnate Christ. Problem is, they cite Proverbs 8 to show he was created.

If a JW comes to your door, he/she's going to eat your lunch over this. They also believe the personified wisdom in this passage is the pre-incarnate Christ. Problem is, they cite Proverbs 8 to show he was created.

12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORDa is to hate evil;
I hatec pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulersa issue decrees that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizonb on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.​

The problem for them, of course, is that wisdom in Proverbs is personified as a woman. It can't be a messianic reference. Their NWT Bible changes the female pronouns, but everyone knows their Bible is corrupt.

That said, I don't think you need these verses to argue your side.

12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORDa is to hate evil;
I hatec pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulersa issue decrees that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizonb on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.​

The problem for them, of course, is that wisdom in Proverbs is personified as a woman. It can't be a messianic reference. Their NWT Bible changes the female pronouns, but everyone knows their Bible is corrupt.

That said, I don't think you need these verses to argue your side.

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister,

Wisdom is Jesus and Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister, MAKES NO EXPRESSION REGARDING THE GENDER OF WISDOM BEING FEMININE.

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister is used in the sense = Intimately acquainted, greatly beloved, and highly delighted in:

Jesus is Just Alright with me.

The Gospel is our buddy.

The Mystery of God is closely related to us, like a sister...



this may be understood both of the Gospel, the wisdom of God in a mystery, which men should be conversant with, be strongly affected to, and take delight and pleasure in;

and of Christ, the essential Wisdom of God, and who stands in the relation of a brother to his people, and should be respected as such;

and call understanding thy kinswoman;

or "kinsman" (a); such Christ is in our nature, our "goel", our near kinsman, partaker of the same flesh and blood, and therefore is not ashamed to call us brethren, nor should we be ashamed to call him kinsman: moreover, his Word and Gospel, and the understanding of it, should be familiar to us; it should be well "known" (b) by us, as the word used signifies, and dwell richly in us.

(a) "cognatum", Piscator. (b) "Notam", Montanus, Michaelis.

...

Every JW I have talked to would say that, "yes, they will accept a donation for their little pamphlets and that money eventually goes to the top" (to extraordinary perverts), and somewhere after I say Jesus will Raise the dead from the bottom of the sea, TO JUDGE THEM...they turn red and pick up their pace, straight away from me.

Except you believe The Jesus is The Eternally generated Son, you Shall die in your sins.

Denying The Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ is denying everything regarding The Deity of The Godhead.

"...the distinction of Persons in the Deity,
depends on the Generation of the Son;

"...take away that, which would destroy the relation between the first and second Persons, and the distinction drops;

Proverbs 8 has Taught Jesus is The Eternal Son, for Thousands of years, before they or other heretics came along.

The entire Book of Proverbs speaks of Jesus as Wisdom and especially all of Chapter 8.

You act like if I don't deny Jesus is The Eternal Son of God that JW can just go to Hell, anyway.

 

[Calminian]

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister,

Wisdom is Jesus and Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister, MAKES NO EXPRESSION REGARDING THE GENDER OF WISDOM BEING FEMININE.

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister is used in the sense = Intimately acquainted, greatly beloved, and highly delighted in:

Jesus is Just Alright with me.

The Gospel is our buddy.

The Mystery of God is closely related to us, like a sister...



this may be understood both of the Gospel, the wisdom of God in a mystery, which men should be conversant with, be strongly affected to, and take delight and pleasure in;

and of Christ, the essential Wisdom of God, and who stands in the relation of a brother to his people, and should be respected as such;

and call understanding thy kinswoman;

or "kinsman" (a); such Christ is in our nature, our "goel", our near kinsman, partaker of the same flesh and blood, and therefore is not ashamed to call us brethren, nor should we be ashamed to call him kinsman: moreover, his Word and Gospel, and the understanding of it, should be familiar to us; it should be well "known" (b) by us, as the word used signifies, and dwell richly in us.

(a) "cognatum", Piscator. (b) "Notam", Montanus, Michaelis.

...

Every JW I have talked to would say that, "yes, they will accept a donation for their little pamphlets and that money eventually goes to the top" (to extraordinary perverts), and somewhere after I say Jesus will Raise the dead from the bottom of the sea, TO JUDGE THEM...they turn red and pick up their pace, straight away from me.

Except you believe The Jesus is The Eternally generated Son, you Shall die in your sins.

Denying The Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ is denying everything regarding The Deity of The Godhead.

"...the distinction of Persons in the Deity,
depends on the Generation of the Son;

"...take away that, which would destroy the relation between the first and second Persons, and the distinction drops;

Proverbs 8 has Taught Jesus is The Eternal Son, for Thousands of years, before they or other heretics came along.

The entire Book of Proverbs speaks of Jesus as Wisdom and especially all of Chapter 8.

You act like if I don't deny Jesus is The Eternal Son of God that JW can just go to Hell, anyway.

As Walter Martin used to say (God bless him), the average JW will twist the average Christian into a doctrinal pretzel, at least on these specific verses they've been trained (and mislead on). Proverbs 8 explicitly says personified Wisdom came into existence. The personification is female. It is not Jesus.

And as I said, most (if not all) on your side, do not use personified Wisdom to make their case. They know better. You're being unnecessarily stubborn over this.

 

[Alan Gross]

"...he must be a very illiterate man indeed who does not know that to "beget" and "generate" are the same;

'I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Psalm 2:7;

I cannot see there is any reason to object to the use of the phrase "eternal generation", as applied to the sonship of Christ, since one divine person is said to "beget", #Ps 2:7

and therefore must be a Father; and another divine person is said to be "begotten", #Joh 1:14,18

and elsewhere, and therefore must be a Son;

( "Something" didn't come into Being when Jesus was Born,
other than the Body God The Father Had Prepared for Him)


and if a begotten Son, as he is often said to be, then he must be a Son by generation: for he must be a very illiterate man indeed who does not know that to "beget" and "generate" are the same;

and that also to be "begotten" and "generated" are the same;

and therefore generation, with great propriety, may be used of the divine persons; and if used of the divine persons as in the divine nature, as if of the Father in the divine nature, then of the Son in the divine nature;

and there being nothing in the divine nature but what is Eternal, then this generation must be "eternal generation";

there are no persons in the Divine Nature but who are Eternal, the Eternal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Eternal Spirit;

nor is there anything in it but what is Eternal;

every attribute in it is Eternal, as Eternal Power, Eternal Wisdom, &c. every Will, Decree, and Purpose in it is Eternal, the Eternal Birth of the Eternal Minds {6};

why not then the Son of God, the Word and Wisdom of God?

and indeed Wisdom, or Christ, is expressly said to be "brought forth", ytllwx, a word expressive of generation, twice used in #Pr 8:24,25

and there, in some ancient versions, rendered "begotten", as Nwma "brought up", #Pr 8:30 is in some later versions rendered carried in the bosom, as a son in the bosom of the Father; all which is spoken of as done in Eternity:

now if Christ was Begotten from Everlasting,
or ever the earth was,
before there were any fountains of water,
or mountains and hills,

and was as early as a Son in the Bosom of His Father,

one would think there can be no difficulty
in admitting His Eternal Generation.

 

[Calminian]

"...he must be a very illiterate man indeed who does not know that to "beget" and "generate" are the same;

'I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Psalm 2:7;

I cannot see there is any reason to object to the use of the phrase "eternal generation", as applied to the sonship of Christ, since one divine person is said to "beget", #Ps 2:7

and therefore must be a Father; and another divine person is said to be "begotten", #Joh 1:14,18

and elsewhere, and therefore must be a Son;

( "Something" didn't come into Being when Jesus was Born,
other than the Body God The Father Had Prepared for Him)


and if a begotten Son, as he is often said to be, then he must be a Son by generation: for he must be a very illiterate man indeed who does not know that to "beget" and "generate" are the same;

and that also to be "begotten" and "generated" are the same;

and therefore generation, with great propriety, may be used of the divine persons; and if used of the divine persons as in the divine nature, as if of the Father in the divine nature, then of the Son in the divine nature;

and there being nothing in the divine nature but what is Eternal, then this generation must be "eternal generation";

there are no persons in the Divine Nature but who are Eternal, the Eternal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Eternal Spirit;

nor is there anything in it but what is Eternal;

every attribute in it is Eternal, as Eternal Power, Eternal Wisdom, &c. every Will, Decree, and Purpose in it is Eternal, the Eternal Birth of the Eternal Minds {6};

why not then the Son of God, the Word and Wisdom of God?

and indeed Wisdom, or Christ, is expressly said to be "brought forth", ytllwx, a word expressive of generation, twice used in #Pr 8:24,25

and there, in some ancient versions, rendered "begotten", as Nwma "brought up", #Pr 8:30 is in some later versions rendered carried in the bosom, as a son in the bosom of the Father; all which is spoken of as done in Eternity:

now if Christ was Begotten from Everlasting,
or ever the earth was,
before there were any fountains of water,
or mountains and hills,

and was as early as a Son in the Bosom of His Father,

one would think there can be no difficulty
in admitting His Eternal Generation.

The irony here is, it is Jesus (God) who brought Wisdom into existence. I think your best course of action is to let this one go (it's not essential to your argument). Much easer than debating just about every Bible translation available.

 

[Alan Gross]

As Walter Martin used to say (God bless him), the average JW will twist the average Christian into a doctrinal pretzel, at least on these specific verses they've been trained (and mislead on). Proverbs 8 explicitly says personified Wisdom came into existence. It is not Jesus.

And as I said, most (if not all) on your side, do not use personified Wisdom to make their case. They know better. You're being unnecessarily stubborn over this.

You, nor a JW can hold hands and deny Wisdom is Jesus,
from any goofy* heresies, inability to see it, reason.

*re: "specific verses they've been trained (and mislead on). Proverbs 8 explicitly says personified Wisdom came into existence. It is not Jesus."

I have edited and modified much of Walter Martin's material, for clarity to the modern reader, and referenced the rest, and paid out of my pocket to send it out to the World via the internet.

If he denies:
"...the distinction of Persons in the Deity, which
depends on the Generation of the Son; I will find it and make note of his error.

I have 620 followers, who ask that my blog posts be emailed to them. ( 1.0.2.5) ANOTHER GOSPEL ( invented: 1879 ): HAVE NO OTHER “gods” BEFORE ME : The ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE of “JEHOVAH’S ( INFINITELY FALSE ) WITNESSES”. – Aware of The Godhead





The ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE of “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”, under RUSSELLISM-RUTHERFORDISM, Part 1.

The ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE of “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”, under RUSSELLISM-RUTHERFORDISM, Part 2.

The ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE of “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”, under RUSSELLISM-RUTHERFORDISM, Part 3.

“REASON” vs “MY THOUGHTS ARE HIGHER THAN YOUR THOUGHTS”. The ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE of “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”, Part # 4.

“REASON” PART 2. The ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE of “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”,
Part # 5.

“REASON & THE MYTH”, which is The BASIS for The WHOLE SYSTEM & ETERNALLY FATAL MISTAKE of “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”, Part # 6.

CONSIDER JESUS # 2: How to Use the Back of a Napkin to Prove to a Jehovah’s Witness That Jesus Is God.

 

[Alan Gross]

The irony here is, it is Jesus (God) who brought Wisdom into existence. I think your best course of action is to let this one go (it's not essential to your argument). Much easer than debating just about every Bible translation available.

"...the distinction of Persons in the Deity,
depends on the Generation of the Son;"

 

[Calminian]

You, nor a JW can hold hands and deny Wisdom is Jesus,
from any goofy* heresies, inability to see it, reason....

You're very confused. JWs agree with you, that personified Wisdom is Jesus. It's you that's holding hands with JWs in their false doctrine.

I'm telling you, it is not Jesus. Jesus created wisdom. So sad you can't see this, and you're willing to argue with all Bible translations to affirm it (except the NWT).

 

[Yeshua1]

John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Genesis 12:7, "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ."
Genesis 17:1, ". . . the LORD appeared to Abram, . . . ."
Genesis 18:1, "And the LORD appeared unto him . . . ."
John 8:56, ". . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

Isaiah 6:5, ". . . Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. . . ."
John 12:41, ". . . Esaias, . . . he saw his glory, and spake of him. . . ."

Do you affirm then the reading of jesus being only begotten of the father, as that would be his eternal sonship described!

 

[JonC]

so where in any of these verses that you quote, do we read of "the eternal sonship"?

John 1:1 (In the beginning was the Word) speaks of "the eternal sonship" in that the Word was never "not the Word". "Sonship" and λόγος are the same in regards to the doctrine of "eternal sonship" (as opposed to the Incarnation or the Resurrection, the latter being the reference of "today I have begotten you" as Christ became the Firstborn as stated in Acts 13:33).

 

[Yeshua1]

No it does not! Jesus Christ is called malakh YHWH (The Messenger/Angel of the Lord) in the OT in many places. There are one or two references to "Son", which can be viewed as Prophecy.

There was NO Jesus before His birth, as he was before that time "Just God"

 

[Yeshua1]

John 1:1 (In the beginning was the Word) speaks of "the eternal sonship" in that the Word was never "not the Word". "Sonship" and λόγος are the same in regards to the doctrine of "eternal sonship" (as opposed to the Incarnation or the Resurrection, the latter being the reference of "today I have begotten you" as Christ became the Firstborn as stated in Acts 13:33).

The Word does not automatically mean the Son....

 

[Yeshua1]

That is Gill's theology!

was he right or wrong, as he also saw Jesus as Michael!