Why I do what I do the way I do it

[Amy.G]

The point is that Tyndale was an extraordinarily brilliant man who wanted to enable the common man to become greater scholars of Scripture than the current corrupt clergy of his day.

Greater scholars? They weren't even bad scholars. They were ignorant of the scriptures because they had been denied them.

To argue that Tyndale did not see the value, indeed the necessity of an understanding of original languages, etc... is to argue nonsense.

I said no such thing.

Tyndale knew where the process must begin- with common people having the Scriptures. You have absolutely no support for this idea that Tyndale thought that that is where it should end- none.

I said no such thing.

I contend, based on the fact that he himself was VERY educated, that he saw the value in education.

Probably. But his desire was to get the scriptures in the hands of the common man. That is what God gifted him for and that is what he died for, not making people scholars.

 

[Luke2427]

You said we should not comment on things we have no knowledge of. Well, we all have some knowledge or we wouldnt' be able to comment at all. So, i guess it comes down to the degree of knowledge we have. And how do we determine that?

I assume that since you are the one complaining about us "ignorant" people that you are also the standard we must meet in order to intelligently converse.

Which in a nutshell means that if we are not as smart as you then we should keep our mouths shut.

John

I could not have been clearer in what I said ANYONE should do before they post on a public forum with authority on weighty matters which have the potential of influencing many people who could read what they post.

I said what they should do in no uncertain terms numerous times in this forum.

Nothing I said indicated that I was the measure. In fact I said several things to clearly indicate that I am not the measure. That is the VERY thing I am contending against. You and I are NOT THE MEASURE.

So we utilize the works of many brilliant God-gifted people who span a broad spectrum of church history to help us understand the glorious and wonderful deep things of God.

Arrogance is thinking you don't need them because GOD SPEAKS TO YOU.

That is what I condemn with every fiber of my being.

Arrogance is saying, "I'll post this even though I don't know if the Body of Christ has ever accepted such teaching, even though I do not know if the original languages even ALLOW for such an interpetation, even though what I post may contradict biblical theology of which I know NOTHING, even though hundreds could potentially read what I haphazardly post here and be lead astray- WHO CARES!!!!??? I'll post it ANYWAY!!!"

That is thinking that you are the measure.

What I am am contending is the dead level OPPOSITE of that.

 

[Luke2427]

Greater scholars? They weren't even bad scholars. They were ignorant of the scriptures because they had been denied them.


I said no such thing.


I said no such thing.


Probably. But his desire was to get the scriptures in the hands of the common man. That is what God gifted him for and that is what he died for, not making people scholars.

You don't know that. You don't know that. You don't know what his ultimate goal was. But you post this as if you do. Who cares if you are right or wrong.

I would contend that his ultimate goal WAS to make the common man a scholar of Scripture. The clergy were educated and he said in no uncertain terms that what he wanted was for the common man to be better versed in Scripture than they.

I think you are terribly mistaken in this line of argumentation.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Luke

I thought about what Amy said about the guy at the grocery store. Is it your contention that since I am mentally handicapped that I am ignorant? You keep calling me ignorant, and that is the reason i dislike you intensely.

I have times when I can study my Bible for days, and then I have times when I can't concentrate at all and don't absorb anything I read because of my disability.

Evidently it was God's will for me to be born with a mental disability. Do you think He will judge me for being "ignorant" the way you do?

FYI, when I was in my 20's I surrendered to preach, but it took me 4 years to finish 2 years of Biblical Studies in bible college. I still have my liscense to preach that my church ordained me with, but I couldn't finish Bible College, much less go to a seminary, so I wasnt able to be a preacher/pastor.

It was many years later before they diagnosed me with a genetic brain disorder that causes mental illness. I was born with it, and since there is no cure, I will die with it.

Even if you really are as smart as you think you are, you shouldn't criticise people that aren't. That pride will bring you down man. Besides, being proud of being smarter than me is pride wasted. Use it on someone that can really challenge you.

John

 

[Skandelon]

...This is because, when it comes to matters that have to do with the glory of God and the eternal souls of men, proclaiming things and arguing for things that you don't understand is EXTREMELY dangerous- to oneself and the ones who he might influence.

This is not a game. This is not something to be handled lightly. This is not an innocent exercise or a source of harmless fellowship. This is not a harmless pass time. People read this forum. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong and on many of the things we discuss there hang eternal consequences.

...If someone is promoting a view point that dims the glory of God, that endangers the souls of men,

Luke, I'm not pointing out these points to be contentious, but I honestly want to understand how a consistent Calvinist believes that those who post in ignorance may have "eternal consequences," "endanger the souls of men," and be "extremely dangerous?"

Is not the sovereign plan of God being fulfilled to not only save all He has appointed to salvation, but also every detail and intention of man? In other words, what is happening here that (1) God hasn't ordained to occur and (2) that could possibly negatively effect the eternal soul of any individual?

I ask this because you appear to be suggesting that someone's error on this forum could somehow affect whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell. It that what you are saying? If not, what do these quotes mean?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke

I thought about what Amy said about the guy at the grocery store. Is it your contention that since I am mentally handicapped that I am ignorant? You keep calling me ignorant, and that is the reason i dislike you intensely.

I do not know if you are ignorant overall or not. What I have said is on the particular subject that you spoke about you were clearly ignorant- on that subject- and you obviously had no business posting about it. Arminius himself was not settled on the matter of security but you contended that you could not possibly be an Arminian because you believe eternal security. So you were ignorant of that very pertinent fact. And I was right about that.

I am sorry for you that you are handicapped. But that should drive you to humility which in turn drives you to look for more help to interpret Scripture- certainly not less.

I have times when I can study my Bible for days, and then I have times when I can't concentrate at all and don't absorb anything I read because of my disability.

Evidently it was God's will for me to be born with a mental disability. Do you think He will judge me for being "ignorant" the way you do?

I think God will judge eveyone one of us for every idle word we speak so we'd better be sure that we know what we are talking about before we speak.

So in the OP I contend that there are NUMEROUS means we'd BETTER use to get the right interpretation before we speak concerning sacred Scripture.

That goes for all of us.

So, no, I do not think God will judge you for your handicap. But I think God will absolutely judge you for what you say and whether or not you should have said it and for what basis you have for what you have said.

FYI, when I was in my 20's I surrendered to preach, but it took me 4 years to finish 2 years of Biblical Studies in bible college. I still have my liscense to preach that my church ordained me with, but I couldn't finish Bible College, much less go to a seminary, so I wasnt able to be a preacher/pastor.

It was many years later before they diagnosed me with a genetic brain disorder that causes mental illness. I was born with it, and since there is no cure, I will die with it.

Even if you really are as smart as you think you are, you shouldn't criticise people that aren't. That pride will bring you down man. Besides, being proud of being smarter than me is pride wasted. Use it on someone that can really challenge you.

Pride is not knowing that I need help to properly interpret Scripture.
Pride is thinking you don't.

You are articulate enough for me to be persuaded that your handicap does not excuse that kind of pride.

 

[preacher4truth]

Luke

I thought about what Amy said about the guy at the grocery store. Is it your contention that since I am mentally handicapped that I am ignorant? You keep calling me ignorant, and that is the reason i dislike you intensely.

I have times when I can study my Bible for days, and then I have times when I can't concentrate at all and don't absorb anything I read because of my disability.

Evidently it was God's will for me to be born with a mental disability. Do you think He will judge me for being "ignorant" the way you do?

FYI, when I was in my 20's I surrendered to preach, but it took me 4 years to finish 2 years of Biblical Studies in bible college. I still have my liscense to preach that my church ordained me with, but I couldn't finish Bible College, much less go to a seminary, so I wasnt able to be a preacher/pastor.

It was many years later before they diagnosed me with a genetic brain disorder that causes mental illness. I was born with it, and since there is no cure, I will die with it.

Even if you really are as smart as you think you are, you shouldn't criticise people that aren't. That pride will bring you down man. Besides, being proud of being smarter than me is pride wasted. Use it on someone that can really challenge you.

John

You don't sound so ignorant to me, actually pretty smart, with some wisdom to boot. Stay in the Word.

- Peace

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, I'm not pointing out these points to be contentious, but I honestly want to understand how a consistent Calvinist believes that those who post in ignorance may have "eternal consequences," "endanger the souls of men," and be "extremely dangerous?"

Is not the sovereign plan of God being fulfilled to not only save all He has appointed to salvation, but also every detail and intention of man? In other words, what is happening here that (1) God hasn't ordained to occur and (2) that could possibly negatively effect the eternal soul of any individual?

I ask this because you appear to be suggesting that someone's error on this forum could somehow affect whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell. It that what you are saying? If not, what do these quotes mean?

And I honestly am not tryng to be contentious with this response. But if you don't understand how Calvinists see means and ends- then you were not ever really a real Calvinist.

 

[Don]

No. But it should not try to be the feet either.

Neither should the feet try to be the hands, etc...

If you are a scholar, a God-gifted teacher- speak like one.

If you are not- do not.

If the hands try to be the feet and hoist the body up on themselves and attempt to carry the body wherever it goes then they are destined to hurt themselves and the Body.

Ah, but you miss the point: Can the hands get the job done without the feet?

It's not one trying to do the work of the other; it's that one can't do all the work without the rest.

Do we bestow more honor upon the feet because they carry us to and fro? Or do we bestow more honor upon the hands because they do the work? Or do we bestow more honor upon the head because it has the brain?

Or did God set every member as it hath pleased Him?

Not everyone will have the same level of understanding. Not everyone will have the same level of learning ability. Not everyone will have the same opportunity for studying. They could be considered more "uncomely" than those who have studied, who have a greater learning ability, and have greater understanding.

Upon these, we should bestow more abundant honor, for the ones with greater learning ability have no need; but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked.

The third gift is "teaching."

Please pardon the paraphrasing, but I believe the principle applies to this discussion.

 

[Luke2427]

Ah, but you miss the point: Can the hands get the job done without the feet?

It's not one trying to do the work of the other; it's that one can't do all the work without the rest

.


That's exactly what am contending, Don.

We do not go it alone when we interpret Scripture. Knowledge that that is right is what drives us to pursue what the Body of Christ has historically believed concerning a passage or subject.

Arrogance is speaking out on a weighty theological matter with absolutely no concern whatsoever as to what the Body of Christ has historically believed about it.

I am contending that that kind of hyper independence is evil and the root of every single heresy we battle today.

Do we bestow more honor upon the feet because they carry us to and fro? Or do we bestow more honor upon the hands because they do the work? Or do we bestow more honor upon the head because it has the brain?

Or did God set every member as it hath pleased Him?

Not everyone will have the same level of understanding. Not everyone will have the same level of learning ability. Not everyone will have the same opportunity for studying. They could be considered more "uncomely" than those who have studied, who have a greater learning ability, and have greater understanding.

Upon these, we should bestow more abundant honor, for the ones with greater learning ability have no need; but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked

.

So long as those who do not yet have the training desire the sincere milk of the word and are willing to be baby fed by mature believers until they are themselves able to teach others also- I'm fine with it.

The problem, the MAJOR problem in our culture is that babes are arrogant. They want to handle meat and don't want anybody's help in processing it and they speak with the authority of a scholar and they claim that they do not need any stinking education because GOD SPEAKS TO THEM.

By education, I do not just mean seminary- I mean studying the works of educated men- Greek and Hebrew scholars, Theologians, Church Historians, etc...

 

[Skandelon]

And I honestly am not tryng to be contentious with this response. But if you don't understand how Calvinists see means and ends- then you were not ever really a real Calvinist.

As a Calvinist I understood the idea of end/means in regard to the need for evangelism within the Calvinistic system, because that was where that concept was typically brought up. But here we are talking about the potential of false teaching affecting the souls of man and eternity. How does that apply in this case?

Are you saying God may ordain the means of me typing an error on this forum to condemn an individual to an eternal hell? I'm a practical theologian as my degree was in 'applied theology,' so forgive me for trying to see how theoretical concepts actually play out in the real world. Please expound. Thanks

 

[Martin Marprelate]

'....But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition' (2Tim 2:23-25).

Luke, I really don't believe that you help your cause by your belligerent attitude. You make it very difficult for some of us who are your natural allies to support you. You will find that you trap more bears with honey than you do with vinegar. :flower:

Steve

 

[Amy.G]

I think God will judge eveyone one of us for every idle word we speak so we'd better be sure that we know what we are talking about before we speak.

You have spoken enough idle words on this forum to nearly get yourself banned. What do you think the readers of this forum think about all the unkind words you have spoken here? Do you think your words and attitudes may hinder someone who is seeking God? I say they are far more likely to than one's lack of education.

But I think God will absolutely judge you for what you say and whether or not you should have said it and for what basis you have for what you have said.

As He will you.

 

[Luke2427]

'....But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition' (2Tim 2:23-25).

Luke, I really don't believe that you help your cause by your belligerent attitude. You make it very difficult for some of us who are your natural allies to support you. You will find that you trap more bears with honey than you do with vinegar. :flower:

Steve

I understand Martin that you believe that. And I do count you as an ally.

But part of what I am contending here is that you yourself and all Christians ought to firmly, and bluntly condemn the arrogance, irreverence and ignorance that drives so many people in our culture to care less about proper hermeneutics.

I am contending that it is WRONG for you to handle such arrogance, irreverence and ignorance with kid gloves.

I am not trying to catch bears, Brother. That is not our goal. Our goal is to "demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." II Corinthians 10:5

Our goal is to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

 

[12strings]

But part of what I am contending here is that you ought to condemn the arrogance, irreverence and ignorance that drives so many people in our culture to care less about proper hermeneutics.

I am contending that it is WRONG for you to handle such arrogance, irreverence and ignorance with kid gloves.

Luke, Our brother Martin is right on here, In both content, and in the gentle manner in which he has given his rebuke.

You simply must understand that the vast majority of people who you target on this forum are at worst, simply untaught in certain areas of bible study and history; and at best, well-studied and simply disagree with you. Yes, many people who argue against calvinism mis-represent what it is, either from ignorance or malice.

But you have mis-represented the motives of many on this forum WITHOUT TAKING THE TIME TO RESEARCH AND STUDY THE PERSON SO AS TO MAKE A MORE INFORMED POST.

Either way, I agree with martin that while I would probably agree with you theologically on most points, I find it more necessary to combat personal attacks and general meanness than I do to combat arminianism.

I am not trying to catch bears, Brother. That is not our goal. Our goal is to "demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." II Corinthians 10:5

Our goal is to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

Our goal: "we make it our aim, whether at home or abroad [or on the net] to please him."

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, Our brother Martin is right on here, In both content, and in the gentle manner in which he has given his rebuke.

You simply must understand that the vast majority of people who you target on this forum are at worst, simply untaught in certain areas of bible study and history; and at best, well-studied and simply disagree with you. Yes, many people who argue against calvinism mis-represent what it is, either from ignorance or malice.

But you have mis-represented the motives of many on this forum WITHOUT TAKING THE TIME TO RESEARCH AND STUDY THE PERSON SO AS TO MAKE A MORE INFORMED POST.

Either way, I agree with martin that while I would probably agree with you theologically on most points, I find it more necessary to combat personal attacks and general meanness than I do to combat arminianism.



Our goal: "we make it our aim, whether at home or abroad [or on the net] to please him."

I am not for personal attacks either. I am for demolishing arguments that exalt thmesleves against hte knowledge of God and reproving darkness, etc...

And you are supposed to be for that too, regardless of how popular it may or may not be.

It is not more Christian to be less emphatic, blunt and condemnatory than Christ and his Apostles and heroes of the faith throughout Church History. It simply is not.

I am telling you that you guys are wrong here for the reasons above.

If you wish to convince me otherwise then make some good exegetical arguments to the contrary, answer the argument above, explain why you think it is OK to coddle irreverence, ignorance and arrogance that the Bible and Bible characters and heroes of the faith throughout history have so vociferously condemned.

Do that and you might persuade me. But just saying that you don't like the way I do things and just saying that MArtin is right is no argument. It is nothing more at this point than an unwarranted claim.

 

[Luke2427]

As a Calvinist I understood the idea of end/means in regard to the need for evangelism within the Calvinistic system, because that was where that concept was typically brought up. But here we are talking about the potential of false teaching affecting the souls of man and eternity. How does that apply in this case?

Are you saying God may ordain the means of me typing an error on this forum to condemn an individual to an eternal hell? I'm a practical theologian as my degree was in 'applied theology,' so forgive me for trying to see how theoretical concepts actually play out in the real world. Please expound. Thanks

Start another thread along these lines and I'll be gald to meet you there.

 

[Don]

That's exactly what am contending, Don.

We do not go it alone when we interpret Scripture. Knowledge that that is right is what drives us to pursue what the Body of Christ has historically believed concerning a passage or subject.

Arrogance is speaking out on a weighty theological matter with absolutely no concern whatsoever as to what the Body of Christ has historically believed about it.

I am contending that that kind of hyper independence is evil and the root of every single heresy we battle today.

So long as those who do not yet have the training desire the sincere milk of the word and are willing to be baby fed by mature believers until they are themselves able to teach others also- I'm fine with it.

The problem, the MAJOR problem in our culture is that babes are arrogant. They want to handle meat and don't want anybody's help in processing it and they speak with the authority of a scholar and they claim that they do not need any stinking education because GOD SPEAKS TO THEM.

By education, I do not just mean seminary- I mean studying the works of educated men- Greek and Hebrew scholars, Theologians, Church Historians, etc...

Luke, you've completely missed the point.

Your post indicates you expect all believers to be the same, have the same desires, have the same abilities...when scripture itself says that we don't, and we shouldn't.

In reality, I believe you're addressing a small number of people on this message board. So address them. Stop using a broadbrush. Be specific in who you're talking about, and you'll have a lot less people arguing with you and requiring you to explain yourself further.

And if I'm incorrect, and you actually do mean to address a large number of people, then I encourage you to go back and meditate upon why God would tell us, in His word, why we are to honor the uncomely more than the comely...and then ask yourself if you're honestly doing that.

 

[Skandelon]

Our goal is to "demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." II Corinthians 10:5

I think the way Paul begins that chapter may shed some light on a problem that is quite evident: "1 By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you--I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away!"

It appears that it may be easier to be "bold" with the written word than when one sits down face to face. I suspect if Luke and I had coffee someday we'd get along swimmingly. If not, I'm 6'4, 250lbs and have my CHL, so either way I think I'm covered.... :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, you've completely missed the point.

Your post indicates you expect all believers to be the same, have the same desires, have the same abilities...when scripture itself says that we don't, and we shouldn't

No, it does not. There are MANY, MANY things that God expects of all of us REGARDLESS of what member of the body we may be.

Among those is a sense of reverence for the way we handle the Word of God, a humility that drives us to seek help from many God gifted teachers of the Word of God and a willingness to be silent when we don't know what we are talking about.

That is what I am contending ALL OF US should do- whether hand or foot or arm or leg or eye or ear.

In reality, I believe you're addressing a small number of people on this message board. So address them. Stop using a broadbrush. Be specific in who you're talking about, and you'll have a lot less people arguing with you and requiring you to explain yourself further

I have named them before. I don't mind doing it again. But I don't mind explaining myself.