Why I'm no longer a Calvinist:

[Osage Bluestem]

If a jew denies Christ, he is technically lost. There is no salvation but by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Race plays no part in justification.

I agree 100%

There is salvation in no other name but Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12 NIV
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

John 3:18,36 NIV
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Gabriel Elijah

You asked........

“Are you suggesting that Jews who die today without Christ—get some kind of 2nd chance after death & do not suffer God’s wrath—despite their rejection of Jesus?”

No, I am not saying that;(Nobody gets a second chance).

It’s just that God’s plan of salvation is by Grace(it has always been by grace), therefore 2000 years ago, when the Jew(God’s people), rejected Christ, this did not effect the eternal relationship they had with God, because of His Old Testament covenants with them.

As I have said, I am still learning here, but I believe the Bible....and that includes Romans 11:, and after much detailed study of this chapter(and the rest of Scripture), I see that God has a plan.
He can not send them to hell, because of His promise to them, therefore He blinded them, so that today’s Jews could not be held responsible for their rejection of Christ.

Now the Bible does talk about the elect Jews(the ones who get saved, becoming part of the Church), but then it says in V.7, “and the rest were blinded”; The rest being, the entire race of Jewish people, that God has made promises to.
--------------------------------------------------
Therefore today, a missionary in Israel, will be ministering and searching for “elect Jews”, who will get saved and become part of the Church.

And although the rest of them, will end up in heaven, they will not be part of the bride of Christ. They will be servants in heaven.

 

[Luke2427]

Because this is a Baptist Debate Forum where differences in theology is discussed and various views are defended and expounded. I'm representing a historically consistent position of what some might call "Arminianism" which has had and still does have numerous scholarly proponents. It is a discussion which has been going on for centuries and can be done in a civil and Christlike manner without resorting to personal attacks and accusations of malicious or ill intent. May I politely and kindly request that you either engage in the discussion by addressing the topics or refrain from posting. I appreciate it. Thank you.

I do not know if gl is guilty of this or not. That is beside the point of what I want to say here which is this:

I agree with this post.:applause:

 

[Skandelon]

Hi Skandelon, I think I know why you work so hard, is it not that you are doing your best as an ambassador of Christ to bring "a more excellent" gospel to the lost by improving the message we share.

I do not know if I can shed much light on the meaning of "remnant" but I do think it is important to draw a distinction between the "remnant" under the "Abrahamic Covenant" which seems to be folks that (1) were descendants of Abraham and (2) were believers who by faith followed God as "children of the promise." But even that does not quite capture the idea because non-blood line folks who married Jews and were follows of the Jew's God were grafted into the "remnant" such as Ruth.

Thank you Van for clarifying the issue, but I don't believe we share any disagreement, at least none I could discern from your post.

While certainly there were non-jewish believers who would have been reconciled according to their faith, I believe Paul typically uses the term (at least in the context of Romans 9-11) to refer to Jews, like himself, who were chosen from Israel for the "noble purpose" while the rest of Israel was chosen for more common means (hardened in their already rebellious condition). Out of the "same lump" (Israel) God molds different vessels:

Those like Paul: for a noble purpose such as apostleship

Other Pharisees: for remaining hardened in rebellion so as to crucify Christ, allow room for the Gentiles to be ingrafted and then to be provoked.

The third group is the Gentiles who are being grafted in (Rm 11) and are willing to hear (Acts 28:28).

Is that more clear about my view of the Remnant of Israel?

 

[Jarthur001]

Read what Paul wrote when speaking to Gentile believers in Romans 11, "25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you [Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [Israel] disobedience, 31 so they [Israel] too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you [Gentiles]. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Most scholars recognize the distinction between the active judicial hardening of God by which he blinds men from the truth temporarily to accomplish a purpose in their rebellion (i.e. Pharaoh/Israel); and self-Hardening by which men choose to rebel even in the clear face of the revealed truth and remain "without excuse." (i.e. Rom 1)

Hello Skandelon,

I understand you base your whole argument on Romans 11. What I would like for you do do is consider all of Gods word along with Romans 11.

So back to Eph 4 before we look at other passages. Lets break this down.

Passage

Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Look at ....."Walk as the Gentiles do." Is this talking about the Old Testament or is addressing what you would call the church age.

 

[Jarthur001]

Most scholars recognize the distinction between the active judicial hardening of God by which he blinds men from the truth temporarily to accomplish a purpose in their rebellion (i.e. Pharaoh/Israel); and self-Hardening by which men choose to rebel even in the clear face of the revealed truth and remain "without excuse." (i.e. Rom 1)

BTW...you now agree that Romans 1 is all of mankind. right? We did spend a week on this.

Also if you will recall, I have shown you what hardening is. God harden Pharaohs heart, using Pharaoh's desire to be in control.

Exodus 7:3

• "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt."

Exodus 8:15

• "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."

God is under no obligation to restrain anyone from Sin, or lighten anyone that they might see. And if man's Obstinate heart might Glorify God, then God has the Sovereign right to use it to do so.



1st Samuel 6:6

• "Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians Hardened their hearts? When He had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?"

We see where God puts the blame for the Egyptians hardening their hearts. Right on them!


This is what Romans 9 is talking about when it says...

Romans 9:18

• "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
• Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth He yet find fault? for who hath resisteth His will?
• Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?
• Hath not the potter power over the clay; of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
• What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
• And that He might make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of Mercy, which He had afore prepared unto Glory."

 

[Skandelon]

They were apostles of Christ. Sent directly by him. They had the apostolic authority of being apostles of Christ and eyewitnesses. They had the gift of the prophetic word of the Holy Spirit (inspiration) to listen to them audibly was the same as listening to the bible (2 Peter 1) Today we can only hear authentic apostolic teaching from the New Testament. It is the New Testament that makes the church apostolic.

But, for Paul to refer to his being "set aside from birth," as an example, when defending his authority suggests that such a characteristic is unique to him and not common to all believers. So too with regard to his being individually picked and effectually drawn. To suggest these are common attributes for all believers would seem to diminish his authority in that the individual believers could rightly respond saying, "So what, Paul? We are all set aside from birth, individually selected and effectually called, what makes you think you are special? We all have similar testimonies. Who is to say what you think is any more authoritative than what we think?"

Total depravity is not utter depravity. It doesn't mean that man is as wicked as he can be all the time. There is grace given by God that restrains a man from being utterly depraved. As God's grace is removed from a man he gets closer to utter depravity. So to harden a man all God has to do is remove a level of restrainst from a man.

But in all the passages regarding the hardening of Israel (Mark 4; Matt. 13; Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41; Rom 9-11; etc) there is the CLEAR distinction between those who have "become hardened" as ones who cannot "see, hear, understand and repent," and even the distinction showing "otherwise they might have" done so. In fact, Paul in Acts 28:28 goes as far as to point out that the Gentiles, unlike the hardened Jews, "will listen." Total Depravity teaches these abilities aren't present from birth making such passages meaningless.

Because in God's economy of time that was the right thing to do. A plain representation of the gospel would have brought mockery and blasphemy from the lips of unregenerate man as it does today.

The problem with this answer is that it is NOT the reason given by the scripture. The reason the gospel truth is hidden in parables is "lest they see, hear and believe it so as to repent." God wants to keep them in the dark for a period of time and if born totally depraved this would be accomplished by simply not regenerating them.

Since the gospel is the "power of God unto Salvation" it had to remain hidden until the proper time. The time in which ALL MEN would be drawn to HIM. (John 12:32)

Because it is a tool which God has chosen to use to stimulate them to gospel exposure. God regenerates his elect during their exposure to the gospel.

Tools typically are used to accomplish a specific purpose. What purpose does the tool of envy serve? You say it is to "stimulate them to gospel exposure," but what does that even mean? Only the work of effectual regeneration makes men capable of receiving the gospel, so what possible work is really being accomplish by the means of envy? Isn't it a provoker of man's will, so as to persuade and change their wills?

This is the same general theme question as why didn't God just create a perfect world with no suffering?

Actually they are quite different. A Calvinist would have a reasoned and logical answer for this question, but to my question regarding why God might choose to provoke the will to envy they resort to red herrings? Or say ambiguous things like, "it is used to stimulate them to gospel exposure."

No, because the people he spoke to were given promises of God's providence and their perseverence in the faith.

I'm not sure how that negates my point???

There is also the story of Jonah to consider regarding God bringing salvation to other groups than just Jews, God's compassion for the Ninevites was common knowledge

But, to the Jews of that day certainly you know of their destain for the idea that Gentiles were being invited to enter Covenant with "THEIR" God...the God of THEIR forefathers. Even the Jewish believers were trying to force the Gentile believer to convert to Judaism in order to be Christians. Plus, do a search on "mystery" in the NT and you will clearly see that this mystery has everything to do with God's choice to bring salvation to nations other than Israel. Surely, you don't deny this, do you?

 

[Skandelon]

Hello Skandelon,

I understand you base your whole argument on Romans 11. .

That is a false accusation clearly rebutted by a simple observation of my many posts and various scriptural references. Plus, dismissing a chapter of scripture and the answer it presents with regard to understanding Paul's intent in Ephesian 4 is not a sound argument. You must explain WHY Paul's response in Romans 11 is not related, if that is what you believe, or show how my argument based on Romans 11 (and other texts) isn't sound and for what reasons. Just to dismiss it as being the basis of my "whole argument" is not an argument itself, just a means to dismiss something you don't wish to answer.

So back to Eph 4 before we look at other passages. Lets break this down.

Passage


Look at ....."Walk as the Gentiles do." Is this talking about the Old Testament or is addressing what you would call the church age.

I've never denied the darkness and hardness of Gentiles, I've only attempted to demonstrate the difference in the historical context by which the Jews AT THIS TIME IN HISTORY have "experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in..." (Rom 11:25) Unlike the Gentiles who "will listen." (Acts 28:28) Yes, the Gentiles were ONCE bound over in their own darkness (not privy to God's prophets and scriptures), but now the Jews are being bound over to darkness (hardened hearts). WHY? So that ALL might be shown MERCY! (Rom 11:32)

 

[Osage Bluestem]

But, for Paul to refer to his being "set aside from birth," as an example, when defending his authority suggests that such a characteristic is unique to him and not common to all believers. So too with regard to his being individually picked and effectually drawn. To suggest these are common attributes for all believers would seem to diminish his authority in that the individual believers could rightly respond saying, "So what, Paul? We are all set aside from birth, individually selected and effectually called, what makes you think you are special? We all have similar testimonies. Who is to say what you think is any more authoritative than what we think?"

Paul was set apart to be a teacher and an apostle. However, The great commission is for everyone. Unless of course you believe the roman catholic interpretation that it is only for the apostles.

The bible teaches that we are a priesthood of believers.

But in all the passages regarding the hardening of Israel (Mark 4; Matt. 13; Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41; Rom 9-11; etc) there is the CLEAR distinction between those who have "become hardened" as ones who cannot "see, hear, understand and repent," and even the distinction showing "otherwise they might have" done so. In fact, Paul in Acts 28:28 goes as far as to point out that the Gentiles, unlike the hardened Jews, "will listen." Total Depravity teaches these abilities aren't present from birth making such passages meaningless.

There is a difference between intellectual belief and spiritual belief. Even Demons have intellectual belief. Spiritual belief is only possible after regeneration.

The problem with this answer is that it is NOT the reason given by the scripture. The reason the gospel truth is hidden in parables is "lest they see, hear and believe it so as to repent." God wants to keep them in the dark for a period of time and if born totally depraved this would be accomplished by simply not regenerating them.

Some would se and hear abd believe and their repentence would only be a dead blasphemous work not born of faith. Faith is only possible in a regenerate person. FOr an unregenerate person intellectual belief is possible religion is possible, but salvation is not because they can only believe ina spiritual sense if they are born again and it is this spiritual belief where a man knows there is nothing he can do to earn his salvation only trust in Christ alone that is saving faith.

Since the gospel is the "power of God unto Salvation" it had to remain hidden until the proper time. The time in which ALL MEN would be drawn to HIM. (John 12:32)

God regenerates his elect when they are exposed to the gospel. All men means people from all over the world. If all men were drawn to him then all men would have heard the gospel AND believed it. Neither of those conditions have ever been met.

Tools typically are used to accomplish a specific purpose. What purpose does the tool of envy serve? You say it is to "stimulate them to gospel exposure," but what does that even mean? Only the work of effectual regeneration makes men capable of receiving the gospel, so what possible work is really being accomplish by the means of envy? Isn't it a provoker of man's will, so as to persuade and change their wills?

It is a tool to bring about their exposure to the gospel of Christ that is all. When people are exposed to the gospel they will be regenerated if they are elect.

But, to the Jews of that day certainly you know of their destain for the idea that Gentiles were being invited to enter Covenant with "THEIR" God...the God of THEIR forefathers. Even the Jewish believers were trying to force the Gentile believer to convert to Judaism in order to be Christians. Plus, do a search on "mystery" in the NT and you will clearly see that this mystery has everything to do with God's choice to bring salvation to nations other than Israel. Surely, you don't deny this, do you?

Indeed the Jews are God's chosen people, but there were conversions to Judaism from outside before Christ. It wasn't unheard of at all. It is a big deal that the gospel is going global, however the promises of it are only to those who believe and only those who are elect will ever believe savingly.

 

[Jarthur001]

That is a false accusation clearly rebutted by a simple observation of my many posts and various scriptural references. Plus, dismissing a chapter of scripture and the answer it presents with regard to understanding Paul's intent in Ephesian 4 is not a sound argument. You must explain WHY Paul's response in Romans 11 is not related, if that is what you believe, or show how my argument based on Romans 11 (and other texts) isn't sound and for what reasons. Just to dismiss it as being the basis of my "whole argument" is not an argument itself, just a means to dismiss something you don't wish to answer.

No one is asking you to do away with Romans 11. I will in fact address this in its context. What I asked about was eph 4.

I've never denied the darkness and hardness of Gentiles, I've only attempted to demonstrate the difference in the historical context by which the Jews AT THIS TIME IN HISTORY

Yes I understand. This is why I asked if Eph 4 is the church age

Is Eph 4 the church age??

(Rom 11:25) Unlike the Gentiles who "will listen." (Acts 28:28) Yes, the Gentiles were ONCE bound over in their own darkness (not privy to God's prophets and scriptures), but now the Jews are being bound over to darkness (hardened hearts). WHY? So that ALL might be shown MERCY! (Rom 11:32)

Based om Romans 11.

I will address Romans 11. I have asked about Eph 4.

Any ideas?

 

[Skandelon]

No one is asking you to do away with Romans 11. I will in fact address this in its context.

Look forward to that.

What I asked about was eph 4.

I know, and as I explained I believe Paul's quote answered your question regarding Eph. 4.

Yes I understand. This is why I asked if Eph 4 is the church age

Is Eph 4 the church age??

I don't typically use that terminology. In the OT the Gentiles were privy to what you might call "common grace" by which the nature of God is revealed through nature and conscience (i.e. Rom 1), while Jews were privy to more "special revelation" in the revelation of prophets and scriptures, etc. Neither Jew or Gentiles were righteous according to the law..."no one was righteous, no not one." "All have sinned and fallen short." But now a RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THE LAW is being revealed to which the law and prophets testified...a righteousness which comes by grace through faith. And according to this righteousness there are some who have been credited as "righteous" due to their faith. Jews, like Abraham, and non-Jews such as Rahab were declared righteousness, not by the measure keeping the law, but by faith.

BOTH groups were bound over to disobedience (both fell short of keeping the law) so that God might show mercy to them all (by righteousness of Grace through faith). AT this time in history, Israel is being blinded from the special revelation of the apostles (the gospel), while it is being taken to the Gentiles. That is the point Paul is making in Romans 11 and the other passages I've pointed out.

Based om Romans 11.

Did you not see Acts 28 that I also referenced in that same quote? How about Mark 4, Matt 13, & John 12 that I referenced in others posts?

 

[Skandelon]

Paul was set apart to be a teacher and an apostle.

Agreed, so for a Calvinist to refer to the uniqueness of his being set apart in such a manner as proof that all men are thusly set apart is unfounded. In other words, proof that God effectually calls and individually appoints his messenger doesn't prove that he effectually calls and individually appoints their audiences. For example, proving Jonah was effectually made to preach in Nineveh is not proof that individuals in Nineveh were effectually made to believe his message.

However, The great commission is for everyone. Unless of course you believe the roman catholic interpretation that it is only for the apostles.

The bible teaches that we are a priesthood of believers.

My argument has nothing to do with either of those points. There is a big difference in God commanding all believers to spread the good news, and God individually selecting and effectually calling his inspired apostles.

There is a difference between intellectual belief and spiritual belief. Even Demons have intellectual belief. Spiritual belief is only possible after regeneration.

So when the scripture says, "For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' You take Paul to mean that they might have only intellectual believed like the demons do? If that is the case why does he say, "and I would heal them?" Surely he wouldn't heal someone who is doing what you call a "dead blasphemous work." Can you explain that?

If all men were drawn to him then all men would have heard the gospel AND believed it

That begs the question because it presumes a point up for debate... a point you might know as, "irresistible grace." The gospel is the GRACIOUS means God has chosen to draw all men, but men can resist or decline its appeal to be reconciled to God, thus it would NOT necessarily make all men believe it.

It is a tool to bring about their exposure to the gospel of Christ that is all.

Explain what that means. Give an example of how that works. How does envy expose the gospel? Doesn't preaching or reading the scripture "expose" the gospel? What role does envy play in that process if not to provoke man's will?

Doesn't it make more sense to understand this as what it obviously means, which is that the Jews will see how Christ changes the lives of the Gentiles and they will see how much better they live life and the joy they have and grow envious of what they have, thus causing them to reexamine their own lives and possibly change their minds?

Indeed the Jews are God's chosen people, but there were conversions to Judaism from outside before Christ. It wasn't unheard of at all.

Did you do a search on the "mystery" of the gospel? What is that mystery?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Way too much to comment on since I cam in late, but I did want to comment on this:

It’s just that God’s plan of salvation is by Grace(it has always been by grace), therefore 2000 years ago, when the Jew(God’s people), rejected Christ, this did not effect the eternal relationship they had with God, because of His Old Testament covenants with them.

From my reading in Romans 9 and on, Paul's argument that God has kept His promise in demonstrated not to Israel according to the flesh, but to those who have believed in Christ. Paul exhibits himself as a Jew according to the flesh as demonstration that God has not utterly cast off His people.

But the promise is to the promised seed, which is according to Christ. All the promises are yes and amen in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jarthur001]

time in history,[/B] Israel is being blinded from the special revelation of the apostles (the gospel), while it is being taken to the Gentiles. That is the point Paul is making in Romans 11 and the other passages I've pointed out.

So even when Paul says in Eph 4 that gentiles hearts are hardened, you don't think Gentiles hearts are hardened today?

Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Notice too, that Paul is talking to Gentile believers....chap 2..

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

In the same chapter he shows more of this contrast..

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

You Gentiles were dead in sin..
YouGentiles walked following the world.
YouGentiles followed the devil.
You Gentiles were disobedient
You Gentiles lived after the flesh.
You Gentiles were children of Gods wrath.

4But, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

But God saved you Gentiles

In the same chapter verse 13 through 22...
You Gentiles were once ALIENATED are now PART of the Kingdom.
You Gentiles were far off are now brought near.
you Gentiles were once strangers and aliens, are now fellow citizens and saints

So, I would say that the Gentiles were being SAVED at this point...

But in chapter 4, Paul say do not >>> as the Gentiles do, >>>>>> darkened in their understanding, .................alienated from the life of God >>>>>>>> due to their hardness of heart.

So maybe the Gentiles hearts are still hardened???

Notice also that Paul makes this statement as universal
​

Eph 2...
3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

In Eph 4 Paul is saying do not walk as those GENTILES with HARD HEARTS..as in the actions seen in Chapter 2 and chapter 4.

It seems clear that ALL of MANKIND both Jew and Gentile have HARDNESS.

 

[Aaron]

Generally speaking the New Testament refers to three groups of people. The Remnant of Israel, the Hardened Jew, and the Gentile. Keeping that in mind I want to define each of these groups and have the Calvinists on this board answer a few questions:

(1) The Remnant of Israel were Jews from God’s elect nation. In Salvation, these were, “holy firstfruits” (Rom. 11:16) “set apart from birth;” the first fruits of grace; the first to be called by Christ; the first and only to be appointed as Apostles through a divine calling. These were the unique messengers who were authorized by the Sovereign decree of God to usher in the gospel of Grace through faith in Christ.

Questions for Calvinists to consider: What sets Paul and the other apostle apart from you, me and every other believer? Are verses that speak of his being “set apart from birth” and “effectually compelled” to preach common to all believers? If so, why does Paul refer to these unique attributes as authoritative signs of apostleship? Do we undermine apostolic authority by claiming that God has sovereignly elected and called us in the same manner as he did Paul, the divinely inspired apostle? Is proof that God sovereignly elects and calls divinely inspired messengers also proof that he elects and calls their audiences in that same manner?

(2) The Hardened Jew: The rest of the Jews were temporarily hardened (Rom. 11:25). In Salvation, these are hardened for the purpose of grafting in the Gentiles and in turn arousing “envy” within them so that they too might believe (Rom. 11:11-14). If they believe in the message they can be grafted back in, if not they suffer the under the wrath of God just as the unbelieving Gentiles. So, salvation comes to these through faith in Christ IF God has “enabled” them to be grafted back in. (Rom. 11:23) The word “enabled” in John 6:65 then referrers to God’s removing His judicial hardening and not God’s overcoming their inborn nature of total depravity as Calvinists interpret it.

Questions for Calvinists to consider: How does the biblical teaching of hardening fit with Total Depravity? Why would God hardened men who are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the things of God already? Why does the Jesus speak of hiding the gospel in parables if indeed those he is hiding it from were born Total Depraved rendering them unable to believe it anyway?

(3) The Gentiles were not hardened, as Calvinists seem to assert in their teachings of Total Depravity (in that they are not born deaf, blind and unable to respond to God's truth). “They will listen!” (Acts 28:28) They are the “foolish” ones that the scripture speaks of that will “accept what Israel rejects.” Gentile’s belief and acceptance of the gospel through faith provokes envy in the hearts of the Jews. “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” (Deut. 32:21/Rom.10:19). During this time Paul and the other apostles were trying to convince the church that Gentiles were chosen of God and that this mystery was apart of God's plan from the beginning of time. Thus, Paul thanks God continually for their being chosen. (1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13)

Questions for Calvinists to consider: What would envy or jealousy have to do with bringing someone to saving grace if indeed man’s will is not a factor? Jealousy is a motivator of man’s will. Why would it be needed if men our brought to salvation by an effectual calling? Isn't it possible that when Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, speaks of his audiences being chosen that it's in reference to the major debate of that day which dealt with God's choice to ingraft the Gentile nation by allowing them entrance into His covenant, a place traditionally thought to be reserved only for Jews?

I know this is a lot to go through, but it was these issues that pulled me away from the Calvinistic doctrine. I'm interested to know how you might deal with them.

Talk of begging the question!

 

[Skandelon]

Talk of begging the question!

What specifically have I stated that presumes the question up for debate, since my entire post was a list of questions to be considered and discussed? Your accusation is unfounded.

 

[Skandelon]

So even when Paul says in Eph 4 that gentiles hearts are hardened, you don't think Gentiles hearts are hardened today?

Those who have grown hardened are hardened, sure, but they are not being judicially hardened by God (i.e. sent a spirit of stupor, etc) as was the case with Israel in that day.

Self-hardening is when we choose to rebel of our own free will thus causing our hearts to grow calloused to the truth of God over a period of time (God permits this, but doesn't actively cause it or do it himself.) Judicial Hardening is the direct work of God by which he blinds an already rebellious person from the truth so as to seal them in their already rebellious state in order to accomplish good through their rebellion (i.e. Pharaoh/Israel).

So, Pharaoh was a self-hardened rebellious person prior to Moses ever showing up on the scene. He didn't want to let his slave labor go and he certainly didn't honor God. God did NOT have to MAKE him rebellious, he just chose to be. However, God wanted to display His power and make his name known and reveal truth through this rebellious man, so He blinded him in his rebellion in such a way that even convincing plagues would not convince him to change his mind. God actively HARDENED Pharaoh's heart to prevent him from seeing the obvious truth. He did this to ensure the Passover. This is a foreshadowing of what God does to Israel in Jesus' day in order to ensure the real Passover of the LAMB. The Jews were self-hardened and rebellious to a God holding out his hands to them (Rm 10:21) and desiring to save them but they were unwilling (Matt 23:37). When Jesus came, like Moses, to redeem the people, God hardened Israel and blinded them from the clear truth of the gospel in order to bring about the Passover.

See what I mean?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Explain what that means. Give an example of how that works. How does envy expose the gospel? Doesn't preaching or reading the scripture "expose" the gospel? What role does envy play in that process if not to provoke man's will?

God uses many means to bring elect into a situation to hear the gospel. Work it out in your own mind how envy can get a Jews to listen to a christian message.

I deleted the rest of the conversation as it is too long, I'm tired of replying to it, and I don't think you or anyone else really reads posts that long anyway. It's a wast of time and work.

 

[glfredrick]

That begs the question because it presumes a point up for debate... a point you might know as, "irresistible grace." The gospel is the GRACIOUS means God has chosen to draw all men, but men can resist or decline its appeal to be reconciled to God, thus it would NOT necessarily make all men believe it.

I note that you neglected to add in the work of the Holy Spirit, who makes the Word live. I suspect that is intentional, for once we bring the actions of the Holy Spirit into the fray we find God alone doing the drawing, not the will of men reading a static word.

 

[Skandelon]

I note that you neglected to add in the work of the Holy Spirit, who makes the Word live.

That presumes the word itself is not a sufficient work of the Holy Spirit. I believe as Jesus that his words are "spirit and life." I believe as Paul, that the gospel is "the power of God unto salvation." And that "faith cometh by hearing." And that the gospel is God's appeal sent to the whole world to request reconciliation.

I suspect that is intentional, for once we bring the actions of the Holy Spirit into the fray we find God alone doing the drawing, not the will of men reading a static word.

Static word? Is that what you call the gospel? Revealing. No wonder you have such a low view of its abilities.