Why I'm no longer a Calvinist:

[Skandelon]

God uses many means to bring elect into a situation to hear the gospel. Work it out in your own mind how envy can get a Jews to listen to a christian message.

But your system readily admits and teaches that men won't really HEAR anything unless first regenerated, what possible thing could envy accomplish for the elect that the effectual calling and the gospel presentation doesn't already accomplish?

I deleted the rest of the conversation as it is too long, I'm tired of replying to it, and I don't think you or anyone else really reads posts that long anyway. It's a wast of time and work.

Convenient for you.

The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.

 

[glfredrick]

That presumes the word itself is not a sufficient work of the Holy Spirit. I believe as Jesus that his words are "spirit and life." I believe as Paul, that the gospel is "the power of God unto salvation." And that "faith cometh by hearing." And that the gospel is God's appeal sent to the whole world to request reconciliation.

Static word? Is that what you call the gospel? Revealing. No wonder you have such a low view of its abilities.

Stop projecting onto me...

I'm the one who brought up the Holy Spirit, who makes the words on the page something other than "static."

I believe as Jesus that his words are "spirit and life."

Spirit and Life from God? How else is there Spirit and Life?

Are you actually ascribing life to mere words without the power of the Holy Spirit? Of course, you have to... Otherwise, as I said above, you are right back into the Calvinist camp and you would hate that, eh? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Skandelon]

Stop projecting onto me...

When you stop projecting on to me that I don't believe in a prior work of the Holy Spirit, then I'll stop correcting you.

I'm the one who brought up the Holy Spirit, who makes the words on the page something other than "static.

He wrote the words. Truth is anything but "static." God brings illumination by putting deep mysterious spiritual matters into our language so we can read or hear it and understand. To presume there must be some additional work of the Holy Spirit to help people understand basic language speaking the truth is simply unfounded.

Spirit and Life from God? How else is there Spirit and Life?

Jesus said the WORDS he spoke are "spirit and life." John 6.

Are you actually ascribing life to mere words without the power of the Holy Spirit?

1. I'm not ascribing life to anything, Jesus is. He said, "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."
2. And its NOT "without the power of the Holy Spirit," because its the Holy Spirit who wrought the words. Words brought life into existence, I think you underestimate the power of words wrought by our God.
3. In Arminianism the WORDS accomplish their desired purpose EVERYTIME, because their purpose is to appeal for man to be reconciled to God and the gospel gives man what is needed to respond freely. In Calvinism, the WORDS are powerless unless they meet ears that have been regenerated by some other power. One only needs to examine scripture to see that the power is in the WORD, not in some effectual, secret working never mentioned in scripture.

 

[glfredrick]

Before you get all up in arms, note that I am responding to your own post above. There, you mentioned the Word, but not the Holy Spirit, and I believe that effects your ultimate theology.

As long as you can believe that the Word can do something (with some un-named power that is not directly God) apart from the work of the Holy Spirit (Word is "spirit" and "truth" as is Christ, as is His Spirit) then you COULD arrive at an means to belief without the action of God in a direct fashion by the actions of a human reading a word in a book.

It is THAT concept that I am calling you on. God illuminates His Word through the power of the Holy Spirit, which you have since agreed with, but does that change your argument above? Seems to not...

 

[Aaron]

What specifically have I stated that presumes the question up for debate, since my entire post was a list of questions to be considered and discussed? Your accusation is unfounded.

Your premises are the very ones in question, yet you draw from them for evidence for the arguments you think Calvinists should answer.

 

[Skandelon]

Your premises are the very ones in question

My premises are being presented to be questioned and discussed. A premise presented with supporting references and the invitation of rebuttal is a far cry from the fallacy of question begging. Learn what the fallacy is before you start making accusation please.

 

[Skandelon]

Before you get all up in arms, note that I am responding to your own post above. There, you mentioned the Word, but not the Holy Spirit, and I believe that effects your ultimate theology.

Must I mention the Holy Spirit every time I mention the word in order for you to understand that I believe the word IS a work of the Holy Spirit?

As long as you can believe that the Word can do something (with some un-named power that is not directly God)

Uh? Who ever said this? The word (gospel/good news) IS the power of God unto salvation. Why? BECAUSE HE WROTE IT! You clearly are not understanding my point of view. Please restate what it is you think I believe because things like this make me wonder if you are getting my perspective. I'm not asking for agreement, but it is nice to know you are being understood.

apart from the work of the Holy Spirit (Word is "spirit" and "truth" as is Christ, as is His Spirit) then you COULD arrive at an means to belief without the action of God in a direct fashion by the actions of a human reading a word in a book.

So now you've reduced the Holy Spirit inspired words of truth to merely "reading a word in a book?" It is GOD's book, and HIS words we are talking about here, remember? How can you not call that a "work of the Holy Spirit?" The Holy Spirit created the message and he indwells and inspires the messengers, but to you its still not a work of the Holy Spirit UNLESS he regenerates them first? Wrong. It is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT regardless of what you presume the Holy Spirit does in addition to the work of bringing and sending the gospel.

God illuminates His Word through the power of the Holy Spirit, which you have since agreed with, but does that change your argument above?

I might word that a bit differently. The Holy Spirit illuminates God's truth through the power of words. Face it, I can list dozens of scriptures which speak of the power of God's word and you can't list one which conclusively even acknowledges the existence and need for an additional effectual secret calling.

 

[glfredrick]

Must I mention the Holy Spirit every time I mention the word in order for you to understand that I believe the word IS a work of the Holy Spirit?

In the very picky level of theological attack that you bring to "prove" your own doctrines, yes...

I can only rebut what you actually write, not your intent. What you wrote above was incorrect, and from it, one could be led to false conclusions, as it missed an entire category of action by God in the process of salvation.

Uh? Who ever said this? The word (gospel/good news) IS the power of God unto salvation. Why? BECAUSE HE WROTE IT! You clearly are not understanding my point of view. Please restate what it is you think I believe because things like this make me wonder if you are getting my perspective. I'm not asking for agreement, but it is nice to know you are being understood.

That is indeed the implications of the original statement that I responded to. And, I certainly can grasp your point of view. I know as well as you do what the Scriptures say about the gospel and the power of the Word. But, you are (or were in a poorly written statement -- I'm giving you an out here) arguing for the power of the Word apart from God's direct interaction via the Holy Spirit. The words on paper are not Christian magic. God, Himself, in the form of the Holy Spirit makes the words of the Scriptures live. They are His words, alive because of Him, not because they are written.

So now you've reduced the Holy Spirit inspired words of truth to merely "reading a word in a book?" It is GOD's book, and HIS words we are talking about here, remember? How can you not call that a "work of the Holy Spirit?" The Holy Spirit created the message and he indwells and inspires the messengers, but to you its still not a work of the Holy Spirit UNLESS he regenerates them first? Wrong. It is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT regardless of what you presume the Holy Spirit does in addition to the work of bringing and sending the gospel.

Oh, stop it... Strawman and red herring all the way.

You got caught in a theological blunder above and now you are looking to fight your way out. Better to just capitulate and get it correct.

I might word that a bit differently. The Holy Spirit illuminates God's truth through the power of words. Face it, I can list dozens of scriptures which speak of the power of God's word and you can't list one which conclusively even acknowledges the existence and need for an additional effectual secret calling.

So, you are yet recanting... And, redirecting with another question. The subject you just brought up is but another dodge to get off the topic that is costing you this debate.

 

[Skandelon]

In the very picky level of theological attack that you bring to "prove" your own doctrines, yes...

I can only rebut what you actually write, not your intent. What you wrote above was incorrect, and from it, one could be led to false conclusions, as it missed an entire category of action by God in the process of salvation.

I wrote, "The gospel is the GRACIOUS means God has chosen to draw all men," and if from that you don't understand that I believe God (by the work of Holy Spirit) graciously chose the means of the gospel to appeal to mankind to be reconciled, I don't know that I can help you. How can I be more clear? Your view is the one that presume there must be some additional work of the Holy Spirit, not mine. Why do I need to mention some other work when there is nothing in the bible which suggest this work isn't sufficient?

That is indeed the implications of the original statement that I responded to. And, I certainly can grasp your point of view. I know as well as you do what the Scriptures say about the gospel and the power of the Word. But, you are (or were in a poorly written statement -- I'm giving you an out here) arguing for the power of the Word apart from God's direct interaction via the Holy Spirit.

No, I'm arguing, as I've clearly stated all along that the GOSPEL IS GOD'S DIRECT INTERACTION VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT. Understand?

The words on paper are not Christian magic.

Magic? No. Supernaturally wrought, divine truth that sets men free, yes. You can attempt to demean the word by calling it "magic" but that doesn't change the actual claims of scripture regarding its power.

You got caught in a theological blunder above and now you are looking to fight your way out. Better to just capitulate and get it correct.

Blunder? By stating what we believe instead of what you believe about what I believe? That is just strange.

So, you are yet recanting... And, redirecting with another question. The subject you just brought up is but another dodge to get off the topic that is costing you this debate.

:laugh:

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Convenient for you.

The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.

I'm certainly not stopping the conversation because of your arguments. I am stopping this thread because I am tired of it.

 

[Winman]

Must I mention the Holy Spirit every time I mention the word in order for you to understand that I believe the
word IS a work of the Holy
Spirit?
Uh? Who ever said this? The word (gospel/good news) IS the power of God unto salvation. Why? BECAUSE HE WROTE IT!
So now you've reduced the Holy Spirit inspired words of truth to merely "reading a word in a book?" It is GOD's book, and HIS words we are talking about here, remember? How can you not call that a "work of the Holy Spirit?" The Holy Spirit created the message and he indwells and inspires the messengers, but to you its still not a work of the Holy Spirit UNLESS he regenerates them first? Wrong. It is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT regardless of what you presume the Holy Spirit does in addition to the work of bringing and sending the gospel.
Face it, I can list dozens of scriptures which speak of the power of God's word and you can't list one which conclusively even acknowledges the existence and need for an additional effectual secret calling.

Yes Skan, God's words are not ordinary words. Jesus said his words are spirit (Holy Spirit) and life. Heb 4:12 says the word of God is quick (alive) and POWERFUL, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart.

Hearing God's word has a powerful affect on a man's heart and conscience. A man is convicted to the heart by God's word, his mind is illuminated to understand that Jesus paid his sin. A man is convinced and persuaded he can be saved by trusting Christ through God's word.

Anyone who thinks scripture are mere words has not understood God's word.

 

[stilllearning]

Yes Skan, God's words are not ordinary words. Jesus said his words are spirit (Holy Spirit) and life. Heb 4:12 says the word of God is quick (alive) and POWERFUL, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart.

Hearing God's word has a powerful affect on a man's heart and conscience. A man is convicted to the heart by God's word, his mind is illuminated to understand that Jesus paid his sin. A man is convinced and persuaded he can be saved by trusting Christ through God's word.

Anyone who thinks scripture are mere words has not understood God's word.

Amen............!

 

[Aaron]

My premises are being presented to be questioned and discussed. A premise presented with supporting references and the invitation of rebuttal is a far cry from the fallacy of question begging. Learn what the fallacy is before you start making accusation please.

A little integrity, please. You don't invite rebuttal concerning the the "Three types," "temporary hardening," etc. You presume them to be established facts and then ask Calvinists to reconcile their doctrines to them.

Of course, you will say, "Am not."

 

[Jarthur001]

Those who have grown hardened are hardened, sure, but they are not being judicially hardened by God (i.e. sent a spirit of stupor, etc) as was the case with Israel in that day.

Self-hardening is when we choose to rebel of our own free will thus causing our hearts to grow calloused to the truth of God over a period of time (God permits this, but doesn't actively cause it or do it himself.) Judicial Hardening is the direct work of God by which he blinds an already rebellious person from the truth so as to seal them in their already rebellious state in order to accomplish good through their rebellion (i.e. Pharaoh/Israel).

So, Pharaoh was a self-hardened rebellious person prior to Moses ever showing up on the scene. He didn't want to let his slave labor go and he certainly didn't honor God. God did NOT have to MAKE him rebellious, he just chose to be. However, God wanted to display His power and make his name known and reveal truth through this rebellious man, so He blinded him in his rebellion in such a way that even convincing plagues would not convince him to change his mind. God actively HARDENED Pharaoh's heart to prevent him from seeing the obvious truth. He did this to ensure the Passover. This is a foreshadowing of what God does to Israel in Jesus' day in order to ensure the real Passover of the LAMB. The Jews were self-hardened and rebellious to a God holding out his hands to them (Rm 10:21) and desiring to save them but they were unwilling (Matt 23:37). When Jesus came, like Moses, to redeem the people, God hardened Israel and blinded them from the clear truth of the gospel in order to bring about the Passover.

See what I mean?

I can see I have failed to communicate the most damaging assault to your position in that this passage is clearly talking about all non believers. whither they be Jewish or Gentile. Allow me to point out again the universal statements.

Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, (AS THEY DO NOW.....THIS WAS IN THE NT) in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Notice that Paul does not say that some of the Gentiles are walking this way.
Notice Paul does not issue qualifying standards to the hardening other than this..THE GENTILES. In other words...ALL
Notice again that Paul has already told readers what this "WALKING AS THE GENTILES" involved in chapter 2.

This is from chapter 2.......
You Gentiles were dead in sin..
You Gentiles walked following the world.
You Gentiles followed the devil.
You Gentiles were disobedient
You Gentiles lived after the flesh.
You Gentiles were children of Gods wrath.

Paul is again addressing GENTILE believers telling what state they were saved from. Now, these now believers walked in this state of HARDNESS. These GENTILES again are in the NT.

NOW BIG POINT HERE....IN CHAPTER 4, PAUL IS SAYING DO NOT LIVE A LIFE AS THE GENTILES ARE LIVING RIGHT NOW.....THAT IS ALL OF THEM....ALL OF GENTILES IN THE NT THAT ARE NOT ELECT.

But you say…but this is not Judicial Hardening.

Again I point out the universal statement found in chapter 2 verse 3….."like the rest of mankind." All of mankind means both the Jews and the GENTILES.

So..whatever you wish to call this HARDENING it is in ALL OF MANKIND.

Also....When you read passages that tell how the hardening happens, this we can say happens to all people that are not elect.
********

Now may be a good time to bring in Romans 11. Paul is addressing the possible question that many may be asking at this point about the Jews. Verse 1 of chapter 11 starts like this..

Did God cast away His people?…..NO……God did not cast away His people….I left to Myself seven thousand men, who did not bow a knee to Baal.' ……..in the present time a remnant

How is this remnant kept?
Verse 5….according to the choice of grace.

CHOICE = Election

So you have
1) Jewish believers saved through election..

So what about the rest?

Verse 7 tells us…

7What then? What Israel doth seek after, this it did not obtain, and the chosen did obtain, and the rest were hardened,

So we have.
1) Jewish believers saved through election..
2) the REST…all the other Jewish people that were not elect….WERE HARDENED.

Notice the past tense. When did this happen?

This has ALWAYS been the case. It happened in the OT which Paul shows in this passage. It was happening then as Paul wrote this. It is happening NOW.

So how is this DONE?

Verse 8…..
God gave to them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear,' -- unto this very day,


Notice the words…..UNTO THIS VERY DAY.

This tells us the HARDENING that you call…"Judicial Hardening"….happened in the OT to Israel…and it was still happening as Paul wrote this. It is still happening today.

7What then? What Israel doth seek after, this it did not obtain, and the chosen did obtain, and the rest were hardened,

8according as it hath been written, `God gave to them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear,' -- unto this very day,

9and David saith, `Let their table become for a snare, and for a trap, and for a stumbling-block, and for a recompense to them;

10let their eyes be darkened -- not to behold, and their back do Thou always bow down.

'

 

[Skandelon]

I'm certainly not stopping the conversation because of your arguments. I am stopping this thread because I am tired of it.

It is easier to grow "tired" of a discussion when ones pat answers no longer suffice.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

It is easier to grow "tired" of a discussion when ones pat answers no longer suffice.

My answers suffice. I just don't want to be a part of this thread. I in no way left your thread because I was uncomfortable with your statements. As a matter of fact I find them lacking in depth and easy to refute. I left because I'm just tired of the thread. I post on other boards and chat rooms and I am currently involved in a lot of discussions about the same topic.

 

[Skandelon]

A little integrity, please.

Integrity is recognized by those who themselves obtain it.

You don't invite rebuttal concerning the the "Three types,"temporary hardening," etc

Oh, but in fact, I do invite it. The fact you'd rather pander in the mire of accusation and speculations as to my intent and my character only reveals either your lack of ability to answer the invitation or the lack of will, either of which should disqualify you from participation.

You presume them to be established facts and then ask Calvinists to reconcile their doctrines to them.

Actually, I presented the facts as I believe them to be supported by the text and invited rebuttal by the means of query. You say this as if Calvinists don't present their findings in such manner thus revealing your double standard and intent to divert the topic.

Of course, you will say, "Am not."

When you learn what the fallacy of question begging is come back and make a case, otherwise you only reveal your lack of knowledge on the subject.

 

[Skandelon]

As a matter of fact I find them lacking in depth and easy to refute.

An easy accusation for one to make as they take their leave. I might become self conscious of the possible weakness of my arguments if not for my extensive knowledge of the history of this debate and the content of much wiser scholars who have perviously made very similar statements as mine. Thus your accusation is known to be disingenuous in light of the scholarship surrounding this discussion.

I left because I'm just tired of the thread. I post on other boards and chat rooms and I am currently involved in a lot of discussions about the same topic.

So, "tiredness" is not the issue, because you continue posting elsewhere, but the content of my arguments is the issue, which you claim are easily refuted but yet go undone. Revealing.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

An easy accusation for one to make as they take their leave. I might become self conscious of the possible weakness of my arguments if not for my extensive knowledge of the history of this debate and the content of much wiser scholars who have perviously made very similar statements as mine. Thus your accusation is known to be disingenuous in light of the scholarship surrounding this discussion.


So, "tiredness" is not the issue, because you continue posting elsewhere, but the content of my arguments is the issue, ones you claim are easily refuted but yet go undone. Revealing.

You are being obnoxious and calling me a liar. I am telling you the truth. That's the last I'm going to say about it. You are free to abandon orthodoxy and choose whatever false system you want. No one is stopping you. We have freedom of religion in the US. However, you will be called to account by God for not rightly dividing the word of truth. I doubt that bothers you, but don't say you weren't warned.

 

[webdog]

You are being obnoxious and calling me a liar. I am telling you the truth. That's the last I'm going to say about it. You are free to abandon orthodoxy and choose whatever false system you want. No one is stopping you. We have freedom of religion in the US. However, you will be called to account by God for not rightly dividing the word of truth. I doubt that bothers you, but don't say you weren't warned.

Only calvinism is orthodox? You have just written off the majority of all believer with that statement, congrats!