Why I'm thankful God convicted about Rock'nRoll

[hpman1611]

Eater Eggs and Christmas trees

Thanks Tim I appraciate the adivce, the whole point to anything and everything in our lives is God, and we should strive to make that a point.
I suppose one of the biggest things I have heard is that CCM mimmicks the world, and we are supposed to be seperate from the world. Paul spoke to timothy about not braiding har, if my facts are right, it wasn't braiding hair that was wrong, just in his area at that time women with braided hair generally had an extremely imoral lifestyle, thus he did not want Timothy's flock to be confused with anyone living in sin. I bought a wow music video DVD and took a look. What I found was, certain groups displayed rebellion, an in your face attitude, and women artist were often very sensual (men too I suppose, but being a guy I don't recognize that so quick!)
As a conservative i thought that all ccm was like that. WRONG! There were alot of groups that showed love joy peace meekness ect., the fruits of the spirit. So ye shall know them by their fruits. If music generates anythin other than Godly feelings, then yeah don't listen to it, but I think throwing CCM into one basket is wrong.
So anyways, back to braiding. Now most Christians don't see braiding their hair as sin. Paul did not say to refrain from this becuase it was wrong, but it was associated not just with modern living, but with sin. Rock music is no longer a sign of rebellion and drugs. It is just the style of our age in history (Irish jigs, classical, and even bluegrass)
Then they say, but the style came from the world and thus it is corrupted. Most Baptist (not all) know of the pagan history in the Christmas tree and Easter eggs, yet still have a tree, and still celebrate Easter with bright colors and chocolate rabbits (a sing of fertility to the druids) So if its a principle to use, follow it Amen?

 

[Rufus_1611]

When I played baseball, I was the backup catcher. That's also how a catcher signals "two outs" to the outfield.

Now Playing: Nick Lowe - "Impossible Bird"

I did it too as a shortstop. On occasion, I would bark at a visually challenged umpire while doing this and walking away from him, as I could typically speak my mind without getting run. I was a bit rebellious but of course this is not surprising in retrospect, as I was addicted to rebellious music. Regardless, I suspect that the rocker dudes who flash this sign toward the stage while banging their head, are not alerting the band that there are two outs.

 

[Rufus_1611]

So anyways, back to braiding. Now most Christians don't see braiding their hair as sin. Paul did not say to refrain from this becuase it was wrong, but it was associated not just with modern living, but with sin. Rock music is no longer a sign of rebellion and drugs. It is just the style of our age in history (Irish jigs, classical, and even bluegrass)

If rock and roll is no longer considered a sign of rebellion, then perhaps that is because the rebellion has been won (atleast temporarily).

Then they say, but the style came from the world and thus it is corrupted. Most Baptist (not all) know of the pagan history in the Christmas tree and Easter eggs, yet still have a tree, and still celebrate Easter with bright colors and chocolate rabbits (a sing of fertility to the druids) So if its a principle to use, follow it Amen?

Amen.

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them." - Jeremiah 10:2​

 

[tinytim]

If rock and roll is no longer considered a sign of rebellion, then perhaps that is because the rebellion has been won (atleast temporarily).

Amen.

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them." - Jeremiah 10:2​

I also don't think of it as rebellion, the way it was in the 60s.
Hence maybe the difference in the way we see it.
In the 60s, Rock was to "stick it to the man!"
But today, it is just another style.
The meaning behind it has changed for the teens listening to it.

Today's teens, for the most part, (I know there are exceptions) don't care about the rebellious part of rock...
Using music to rebel is soooo old fashioned, and a 60s thing.

It is just music to them.
That is what I am seeing.
That is what it is to me.
I think the jerks that rebelled in the 60s with music were idiots.

Now that said, I do realize there are bad CCM artists. Those that are in it for the fame, and the fact that they don't have the talent it takes to compete with the real rockers. So they settle for CCM to buy some time, so they can make it big.

But there are a few that are real. Like Casting Crowns.

 

[hpman1611]

Lanuguage

In a book by Frank Garlock and Kurt Woetzel titled Music in the Balance, they put music into the perspective that it is language of the emotions. I do agree with that fact. The perfect way to demonstrate this would be watching any movie. What scenes are generally shown with what types of music. This can be misleading however, for a harp and violin can be played during a sensual scene, and also during a godly It is well with my soul number. But I can't simply see music used in a strip club with its just so beats and tempos being able to be used for the glory of God. Unfortunately most music styles (even blue grass) have their roots in some type of sin or sin setting. So how do we sort this out. My church would neve rlet our teens ball room dance, however the music written and composed for these occasions are ok to listen to. This is all so confusing. It seems more and more to lean toward a relative sense of association and individual reaction.

 

[Bro Tony]

Could someone help me out here? How many beats per measure make it rock music and of the devil?

Bro Tony

 

[Pastor Larry]

The first step Tony, would be to get some good resources on culture and meaning, and begin there. Your post shows a great misunderstanding in thinking it's about beats per measure. However, it can be fixed if you are willing to do a little work.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

The first step Tony, would be to get some good resources on culture and meaning, and begin there. Your post shows a great misunderstanding in thinking it's about beats per measure. However, it can be fixed if you are willing to do a little work.

Forgive me, Pastor, but I don't think any amount of "research" can "fix" this argument. It's a matter of the heart, and those willing to see that the worship of God exceeds musical style. Worship is more than a song.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am not sure what you mean Joshua. If someone thinks that the morality of music is a matter of the number of beats in a measure, that can be fixed.

As for the worship of God exceedign musical style, that is true. But worship in music cannot be less than including a discussion of musical style.

I was discipling a guy this morning. We have never talked about music in any of this. He is a former drug addict and alcoholic, done time in jail, etc. So he is well familiar with life on the streets. But he brought up Christian rap and said there was no way that Christian rap could fit the Word of God. He said, "The word of God is serious. I take it seriously. It just doesn't fit with rap."

Here's the point: Any one who thinks that music is amoral, not communicating anything, is seriously deficient any of knowledge of culture and meaning. We need not all arrive at the same conclusion. But it is impossible to understand God, culture, meaning, and music and say that music styles does not matter at all.

It is true that worship is a matter of the heart. But it is more. Our expressions reveal what is in our heart much more than our words, often.

So my suggestion is, If someone is interested, start studying.

 

[Bro Tony]

The first step Tony, would be to get some good resources on culture and meaning, and begin there. Your post shows a great misunderstanding in thinking it's about beats per measure. However, it can be fixed if you are willing to do a little work.

My post shows that it is ridiculous for those who continue to promote a specific beat makes music evil. I was attempting to be funny and show how silly this whole matter is. I am guessing you missed that, or you have been convinced that God only likes the music you and others say is godly. Funny, though, it always seems to be a western mindset and musical preference that God likes. Just as funny that we seem to reject anything that is ethnic, including that with a Jewish background and the instruments that would have been used in the Temple. I am convince they did not use too much dead white men's European music.

Secondly, I have done the research as you have suggested. Most are written by those who have and agenda. And many of their conclusion have an ethnic bias that borders on racism.

Bro Tony

 

[rbell]

Tony,

I just got through meeting with one of my student praise band leaders.

He wrote a song in 5/4.

THAT IS evil.




:laugh:

 

[Bro Tony]

Tony,

I just got through meeting with one of my student praise band leaders.

He wrote a song in 5/4.

THAT IS evil.




:laugh:

Rbell,

If I had any musical ability I might know what you mean. But I have to say that does sound evil. I am so inept musically the only thing I can play is the radio:laugh: :wavey:

Bro Tony

 

[rbell]

5/4...FIVE beats per measure instead of four.

So, if you're tapping your toe...instead of

1, 2, 3, 4 it's
1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Feels weird to us rhythmically challenged.

 

[Pastor Larry]

My post shows that it is ridiculous for those who continue to promote a specific beat makes music evil.

I agree that it is ridiculous to suggest a specific beat makes music evil. The nature of communication in music goes way past time signatures.

I was attempting to be funny and show how silly this whole matter is.

It didn't work. It wasn't funny and it didn't show that the discussion over the meaning in music is silly. I think all it showed it a gross simplification or perhaps a great misunderstanding of the nature of music.

I am guessing you missed that, or you have been convinced that God only likes the music you and others say is godly.

Well, yes, God only likes the music I and others say is godly. When you think about it, you are one of "the others." So that was kind of a silly statement as well you just made.

Just as funny that we seem to reject anything that is ethnic, including that with a Jewish background and the instruments that would have been used in the Temple. I am convince they did not use too much dead white men's European music.

I don't know who "we" is. Perhaps you speak for yourself but certainly not for me.

Secondly, I have done the research as you have suggested. Most are written by those who have and agenda. And many of their conclusion have an ethnic bias that borders on racism.

That's a cheap charge and totally unfounded. The nature of communication in music has nothing to do with race. It has to do with the way that music communicates. Racism is an easy thing to throw out because it sounds so sensitive and learned. But it isn't. It is a foolish argument. People can object to certain kinds of music in worship without having any racial bias whatsoever. I reject the music of Beethoven in worship. He's a white, European. I reject the music of Chopin in worship. He too is a white European. I could go on and on. You see, it has nothing to do with race.

Furtheremore, I don't know who you have studied, but you haven't done the research if you think the arguments are silly. You may disagree, but they are not silly arguments (unless you are biased). They come from people who have no agenda ... people like Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein, Allan Bloom, Richard Weaver, just to name a few. None of those have an agenda of Christian music. But they all recognize the way music communicates.

The truth is that God does care how we speak to him, and that includes our music as well as our words.

 

[Pastor Larry]

He wrote a song in 5/4.

THAT IS evil.

I agree. 5/4 is from the devil. 7/4 is worse I think.

 

[Bro Tony]

I agree that it is ridiculous to suggest a specific beat makes music evil. The nature of communication in music goes way past time signatures.

It didn't work. It wasn't funny and it didn't show that the discussion over the meaning in music is silly. I think all it showed it a gross simplification or perhaps a great misunderstanding of the nature of music.

Well, yes, God only likes the music I and others say is godly. When you think about it, you are one of "the others." So that was kind of a silly statement as well you just made.

I don't know who "we" is. Perhaps you speak for yourself but certainly not for me.

That's a cheap charge and totally unfounded. The nature of communication in music has nothing to do with race. It has to do with the way that music communicates. Racism is an easy thing to throw out because it sounds so sensitive and learned. But it isn't. It is a foolish argument. People can object to certain kinds of music in worship without having any racial bias whatsoever. I reject the music of Beethoven in worship. He's a white, European. I reject the music of Chopin in worship. He too is a white European. I could go on and on. You see, it has nothing to do with race.

Furtheremore, I don't know who you have studied, but you haven't done the research if you think the arguments are silly. You may disagree, but they are not silly arguments (unless you are biased). They come from people who have no agenda ... people like Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein, Allan Bloom, Richard Weaver, just to name a few. None of those have an agenda of Christian music. But they all recognize the way music communicates.

The truth is that God does care how we speak to him, and that includes our music as well as our words.

Let me be the first to thank you for straightening me out. That you might not agree or think humor is appropriate is beside the point, you are not the final authority. But, you go on thinking your opinion is the only one that matters, and your approach is the only one that is appropriate, and that which you read is the only thing authoritative. It will not change what really is. And I wont lose too much sleep over the fact that we disagree. Have a day brother and enjoy your own little box of existence that you have placed God in. :godisgood:

Bro Tony

 

[Pastor Larry]

you might not agree or think humor is appropriate is beside the point, you are not the final authority.

Actually, it wasn't a matter of appropriateness, but failure. It simply wasn't funny.

But, you go on thinking your opinion is the only one that matters, and your approach is the only one that is appropriate, and that which you read is the only thing authoritative.

Actually, I think none of these things.

It will not change what really is.

This is true. But think about it: The fact that you think music is amoral and all is acceptable to God does not change what really is. In others, the problem you attribute to me is one you too must face.

Have a day brother and enjoy your own little box of existence that you have placed God in.

I haven't placed God in any box, so I am not sure what this means.

I can't help but notice you didn't interact with the substance of the argument. This is pretty typical in these types of discussions, but it is also revealing.

Do you really believe that God doesn't care how we speak to him?

 

[Bro Tony]

Actually, it wasn't a matter of appropriateness, but failure. It simply wasn't funny.
Your opinion, to which you're entitled.
Actually, I think none of these things.
Sorry if I misunderstood your responses. I guess in your case if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck its a cow.
This is true. But think about it: The fact that you think music is amoral and all is acceptable to God does not change what really is. In others, the problem you attribute to me is one you too must face.
Where have I stated that music is amoral. That I don't agree with your standards as to what is appropriate is not claiming that music is amoral. I just don't believe you are the final authority.
I haven't placed God in any box, so I am not sure what this means.
Fine.
I can't help but notice you didn't interact with the substance of the argument. This is pretty typical in these types of discussions, but it is also revealing. Substance? Would that be how you initially responded to me? I again wasn't aware that you set the perameters of how people had to respond on any particular subject. I will try to remember in the future to get your approval before responding to make sure you feel it is substantial and appropriate

Do you really believe that God doesn't care how we speak to him? Did I say that? Could you show me where I did? Again, that I don't consider you my authority or the Holy Spirit in my life and walk with the Lord, does not equate to your inane statement.[/quote]

Bro Tony

 

[DHK]

Forgive me, Pastor, but I don't think any amount of "research" can "fix" this argument. It's a matter of the heart, and those willing to see that the worship of God exceeds musical style. Worship is more than a song.

A quick glance through any hymn book will reveal that the time beat varies greatly from hymn to hymn. They are not all 4/4. Your rock bottom argument that you fall back on every time this subject comes up is not flawless, but rather an excuse: "it is a matter of the heart." You see, one could say, "It is a matter of the heart concerning my smoking weed. I can glorify the Lord, after all the Lord told gave Adam ALL the herbs to eat thereof." It is a matter of the heart, and my heart tells me it is right. To say it is a matter of the heart is just justification for sin. If you are depending on your "heart" you are in trouble. It is not the heart that is our basis for right and wrong; it is the Word of God. It is not subjectivity; but objectivity. Are there standards in the Word of God written that a person can follow to find out whether or not his music does indeed glorify the Lord? I believe there are.

I believe there is a great difference between the genre of music that aided the Israelites in their worship of the golden calf as the danced naked around it, compared to the music that David played that aided in the casting out of the demon from Saul.
There are examples and principles in the Word of God which we can go by. The NT also gives much instruction in this area.

 

[rbell]

I believe there is a great difference between the genre of music that aided the Israelites in their worship of the golden calf as the danced naked around it, compared to the music that David played that aided in the casting out of the demon from Saul.

I highlighted the first two words of my quote of DHK. Maybe he's right. Maybe not. We have no scripture telling us either way.