Why is it worth fighting over?

[The Archangel]

I'm interested in why you think Christ would require of him to sell all that he had in order to be 'saved'. Those with Christ had done so, you know. "Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee."

Is that a requirement to be born again from above? To sell all, to leave all, and follow Him?

AH... No, it isn't.

The point of Jesus' exchange with the so-called "Rich Young Ruler" is idolatry.

He had kept the man-ward commands of the Ten Commandments, but Jesus tests him on the first commandment...and he fails miserably. In short, the man worshiped his money and possessions.

The point is this: Nothing can come between you and God. If it does, you're not worshiping God...

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[kyredneck]

That's not my take of the record at all. He ran to Christ, kneeled before Him, and saluted Him with language intended for the divine. Christ loved him and did not dispute his claim of doing no ill towards his neighbor. The evidence points to this young man being circumcised in heart. Where he messed up is when he asked, "What lack I yet"? And Christ says, 'if you would be perfect sell all and follow me'. Christ actually put it forth to him to become His disciple, and he balked. I agree with Edersheim on this, 'saved' here is not in reference to the eternal salvation of the soul but of entering into the benefits of the kingdom, i.e., new covenant.

Also remember, this is just a photo snap shot of this young man at this moment in time, just as with Nicodemus in Jn 3. Who knows that he did not indeed later on join with the saints in Jerusalem who sold all and held everything in common.

I choose not to judge him harshly.

 

[steaver]

Well, Dr. J has met with Jesus face to face and I suppose he knows by now that he was wrong about TULIP's version of Election. :tongue3:

 

[The Archangel]

That's not my take of the record at all. He ran to Christ, kneeled before Him, and saluted Him with language intended for the divine. Christ loved him and did not dispute his claim of doing no ill towards his neighbor. The evidence points to this young man being circumcised in heart. Where he messed up is when he asked, "What lack I yet"? And Christ says, 'if you would be perfect sell all and follow me'. Christ actually put it forth to him to become His disciple, and he balked. I agree with Edersheim on this, 'saved' here is not in reference to the eternal salvation of the soul but of entering into the benefits of the kingdom, i.e., new covenant.

Also remember, this is just a photo snap shot of this young man at this moment in time, just as with Nicodemus in Jn 3. Who knows that he did not indeed later on join with the saints in Jerusalem who sold all and held everything in common.

I choose not to judge him harshly.

I honestly don't know how you can get what you've posted here from that passage. I do not wish to de-rail this thread, however. So, if you'd like, start a new thread and we can discuss this there.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

I said nothing of the sort. I agreed that 1 Corinthians 15 said that if Christ is not raised our faith is in vein. That's all.

You flatter yourself.

The Archangel

You agreed with me that if Jesus did not die for you, your faith would be in vain.

Here is the statement I made;

A promise must have a foundation behind it.

Paul shows this in 1 Corinthians 15;

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Paul shows here that if Jesus did not rise from the dead in reality, then preaching the gospel will not save anybody. And if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then your faith will not save you, your faith is vain and you will die in your sins.

Likewise, if Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith will not save you. Your faith is vain and you will die in your sins.

And here is your response to this statement I made;

I have no disagreement with the above statement.

Here is the very post;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2119351&postcount=7

I said that if Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith will not save you, your faith is vain and you will die in your sins, and you said you have no disagreement with this statement I made.

If Limited Atonement is true, and Jesus died for only some men, only those whom Jesus actually died for in reality can be saved. If a man believes Jesus died for him, but Jesus did not in reality die for him, that man's faith is vain and he will die in his sins.

And you most certainly agreed with me.

 

[kyredneck]

I honestly don't know how you can get what you've posted here from that passage. I do not wish to de-rail this thread...

I don't know how you determine he was non-elect when the initial evidence actually points to him being regenerate. Pink somewhat agrees with me:

"Concerning the rich young ruler of whom it is said Christ "loved him" (Mark 10:21), we fully believe that he was one of God's elect and was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord. . . . It is written, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," and this man certainly did "come" to Him." A.W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God

Perhaps you believe the elect could never fall into idolatry?

....and no, I don't want to derail the thread or start another one, getting prepared to leave town for several days.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Citations Are From The NIV

When you speak of election to non cals you need to remember that non cals do not define it they way cals do. Acting like we have a common understanding of election means we just end up talking past one another.

Why does it have to be that way. You affirm the authority and God-breathed nature of the Bible. Believers in the Lord should not have widely differing views of plain texts such as:

Romans 8:33,34 :"Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died --more than that, who was raised to life --is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

All through the "more than conquerors" section of verses 31-39 it speaks of "us." The "Us" refers to the elect --His chosen ones.

The death of Christ is given as the reason for no charge being laid against the elect on the last day. But if Christ died for each and every person, past,present and future -- His death does not give any comfort or security against such a charge. Does Romans 8 teach that the security of the elect is founded on the death of Christ, or what what people do by believing on Him?

Consider wisely.
________________________________________________________________
1 Peter 1:1,2:"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles, scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia,Cappadocia,Asia and Bithynia,who have been chosen according to foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work pf the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance."

Doesn't this teach that God has His elect ones scattered throughout the world? Throw in Rev. 5:9;7:9;14:4 and other passages for support.
_________________________________________________________________
1 Peter 2:9,10 :"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession,that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

How can you deny that Christians are the called out ones --God's special possession --the ones who have received mercy in contradistinction to the rest?

Can you possibly have a different take on these passages? Or do they teach what is the undeniable truth of God's elect?

 

[Rippon]

I don't know how you determine he was non-elect when the initial evidence actually points to him being regenerate.

What initial evidence?

Pink somewhat agrees with me:

"Concerning the rich young ruler of whom it is said Christ "loved him" (Mark 10:21), we fully believe that he was one of God's elect and was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord. . . . It is written, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," and this man certainly did "come" to Him." A.W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God

AWP said the above because the Lord loved him as verse 21 tells us. AWP was under the impression that only the elect could be loved of God. So that's why he surmised that at a later time the young man had to have had a conversion.

 

[kyredneck]

What initial evidence?

I guess you missed this:

.....He ran to Christ, kneeled before Him, and saluted Him with language intended for the divine. Christ loved him and did not dispute his claim of doing no ill towards his neighbor. The evidence points to this young man being circumcised in heart.....

AWP said the above because the Lord loved him as verse 21 tells us. AWP was under the impression that only the elect could be loved of God. So that's why he surmised that at a later time the young man had to have had a conversion.

I guess you missed this:

..."Concerning the rich young ruler of whom it is said Christ "loved him" (Mark 10:21), we fully believe that he was one of God's elect and was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord. . . . It is written, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," and this man certainly did "come" to Him." A.W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God

I guess you're not making the connection between....:

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. Mk 10

....and:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

Christ and Paul both are actually reiterating the summary of the law contained within the Rabbinism of the day:

“…Rabbinism is never weary of quoting as one of the characteristic sayings of its greatest teacher, Hillel (who, of course, lived before this time), that he had summed up the Law, in briefest compass, in these words: ‘What is hateful to thee, that do not to another. This is the whole Law; the rest is only its explanation…..” Life & Times - Edersheim

IF this young man did indeed have this law fulfilling agape in his heart, it was not flesh and blood that put it there.

Does it 'stove you all up' to think he could have been a 'doer of the law' and yet wrongly trust in riches at the same time?

 

[The Archangel]

You agreed with me that if Jesus did not die for you, your faith would be in vain.


And you most certainly agreed with me.

Are you seriously going to presume to tell me what I meant? SERIOUSLY?!

You must have missed the part where I said: "Those who hold to Limited Atonement believe that Jesus did die for the elect--so he did die personally for some."

Again, you flatter yourself.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Are you seriously going to presume to tell me what I meant? SERIOUSLY?!

You must have missed the part where I said: "Those who hold to Limited Atonement believe that Jesus did die for the elect--so he did die personally for some."

Again, you flatter yourself.

The Archangel

Those who believe in Limited Atonement have no idea who the elect are. Ask any Calvinist why they preach if God has ordained who will be saved, and they will all tell you the same thing, God has chosen preaching as the means to save men, and that they do not know who the elect are.

And if you do not know if others are elect, you cannot know you are elect either. It's not like there is a list of names written somewhere with your name on it.

The best a Calvinist can do is work to prove to himself he is saved and hope he can endure and persevere to the end. He cannot know he is truly saved until he dies, and it is too late then.

So, your belief and confidence proves nothing if Limited Atonement is true. If Jesus did not in reality die for you personally, your faith is vain and you will perish in your sins.

You guys just don't get it.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm interested in why you think Christ would require of him to sell all that he had in order to be 'saved'. Those with Christ had done so, you know. "Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee."

Is that a requirement to be born again from above? To sell all, to leave all, and follow Him?

ONLY requirement God gave to us as sinners was to believe in the name of His Son jesus, and have eternal life in his name!

the Gosepl of John makes it so clear to us, that ONLY those who have received jesus thru faith are redeemed/saved/have eternal life, not hell bound!

 

[Yeshua1]

That's not my take of the record at all. He ran to Christ, kneeled before Him, and saluted Him with language intended for the divine. Christ loved him and did not dispute his claim of doing no ill towards his neighbor. The evidence points to this young man being circumcised in heart. Where he messed up is when he asked, "What lack I yet"? And Christ says, 'if you would be perfect sell all and follow me'. Christ actually put it forth to him to become His disciple, and he balked. I agree with Edersheim on this, 'saved' here is not in reference to the eternal salvation of the soul but of entering into the benefits of the kingdom, i.e., new covenant.

Also remember, this is just a photo snap shot of this young man at this moment in time, just as with Nicodemus in Jn 3. Who knows that he did not indeed later on join with the saints in Jerusalem who sold all and held everything in common.

I choose not to judge him harshly.

He was a sinner, who thought that he could buy eternal life thru money, and when faced with making a chose between earthly rewards and eternal ones...

Went away still lost in his sins!

Contrast that with his Apostles, who chose to follow Him, and gave up earthly treasure for heavenly ones!

NO amount of good works has EVER made one merit favor in sight of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know how you determine he was non-elect when the initial evidence actually points to him being regenerate. Pink somewhat agrees with me:

"Concerning the rich young ruler of whom it is said Christ "loved him" (Mark 10:21), we fully believe that he was one of God's elect and was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord. . . . It is written, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," and this man certainly did "come" to Him." A.W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God

Perhaps you believe the elect could never fall into idolatry?

....and no, I don't want to derail the thread or start another one, getting prepared to leave town for several days.

Well, MANY came to follow jesus, as he was healing and doing miracles, but once his teaching of what it meant to get saved hit them, they all left him!

save for His own Apostles, as they were hearing him teach spiritual truths, others just physical !

 

[Yeshua1]

Those who believe in Limited Atonement have no idea who the elect are. Ask any Calvinist why they preach if God has ordained who will be saved, and they will all tell you the same thing, God has chosen preaching as the means to save men, and that they do not know who the elect are.

And if you do not know if others are elect, you cannot know you are elect either. It's not like there is a list of names written somewhere with your name on it.

The best a Calvinist can do is work to prove to himself he is saved and hope he can endure and persevere to the end. He cannot know he is truly saved until he dies, and it is too late then.

So, your belief and confidence proves nothing if Limited Atonement is true. If Jesus did not in reality die for you personally, your faith is vain and you will perish in your sins.

You guys just don't get it.

NONE can call upon Jesus as their Lord, apart from the working of the Holy Spirit, so if any sinner has called upon Him to get saved, that proved they were one of His elect!

 

[Winman]

NONE can call upon Jesus as their Lord, apart from the working of the Holy Spirit, so if any sinner has called upon Him to get saved, that proved they were one of His elect!

Right.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not every one that calls Jesus "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, MANY will call him "Lord, Lord" and boast of how obedient they were to prophesy in Jesus's name, to cast out devils, and do many wonderful works in Jesus's name, but Jesus will tell them he NEVER knew them and to depart from him.

You better find a more sure way to know you are saved, just because you call Jesus "Lord" is no guarantee you are one of the elect.

 

[Yeshua1]

Right.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not every one that calls Jesus "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, MANY will call him "Lord, Lord" and boast of how obedient they were to prophesy in Jesus's name, to cast out devils, and do many wonderful works in Jesus's name, but Jesus will tell them he NEVER knew them and to depart from him.

You better find a more sure way to know you are saved, just because you call Jesus "Lord" is no guarantee you are one of the elect.

I know Jesus voice, i am one of his sheep, part of his flock, as the Spirit bears witness to me of that fact, and I love the Lord, His word, his people, and desire to live for jesus...

Those are ALL evidences the Bible stated his own have...

Do you question my salvation, or others here then?

 

[Winman]

I know Jesus voice, i am one of his sheep, part of his flock, as the Spirit bears witness to me of that fact, and I love the Lord, His word, his people, and desire to live for jesus...

Those are ALL evidences the Bible stated his own have...

Do you question my salvation, or others here then?

You can read, Jesus said that "many" will call him "Lord, Lord" and boast of their service to Jesus, and he will tell them he never knew them.

He then tells the story of a wise man who built his house on a rock, and a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

When the storm blew and beat on the house of the foolish man, his house built on sand collapsed.

Do you know what this means?

 

[Yeshua1]

You can read, Jesus said that "many" will call him "Lord, Lord" and boast of their service to Jesus, and he will tell them he never knew them.

He then tells the story of a wise man who built his house on a rock, and a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

When the storm blew and beat on the house of the foolish man, his house built on sand collapsed.

Do you know what this means?

I know that once I was lost in sins, a sinner, but now thru His grace, He found and saved me!

 

[steaver]

I know that once I was lost in sins, a sinner, but now thru His grace, He found and saved me!

Didn't He always know where you were?