Why is life in prison more "Christian" than the death penalty ?

[freeatlast]

It's an interesting question, Bro Curtis, though: as the Law commanded that the death penalty be exacted for adultery as much as for murder, surely if we are to execute murderers then we should equally execute adulterers. Calvin's Geneva wasn't squeamish about this; why are you?

This is the same kind of manure (so called logic) that so called homosexual Christians use to justify their lifestyle.

There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. Just those who claim to be Christians.

As to adulterers I have no question that God would support the death penalty today for adultery if applied in the same manner as in OT times. If you look at scripture the death penalty for murder was given to the world before the law and has never changed. The death penalty for the adulterer was given to a theocracy not the world. So if we applied the death penalty for adulterer today it should be applied to those in the church and not the world.

The problem is not with the punishment but the problem is that we as Christians have become like the world and separated ourselves so far from what God stands for that are shocked by just how He feels about certain things.

 

[sag38]

I did not say there were homosexual Christians. I said "so called" homosexual Christians.

Just as Matt has taken an extreme left position you have taken an extreme right position. One takes grace way too far while the other ignores grace. Both are wrong and pervert scripture.

 

[matt wade]

My history with you tells me to not engage you in these GOTCHA questions. I answered you, you just want to trip me up. You have been pretty nasty to me in the past. Why should I trust you ? I guess you will just have to accept that I don't.

There's no GOTCHA. You know exactly what response I will give depending on how you answer the question. If you say that we should execute adulterers, I'll commend you for being consistent. If you say we shouldn't, I'll say you are being inconsistent. Why should you have to trust someone else in order to answer a simple question about YOUR beliefs? You are just dodging the question for some reason. Like I said earlier, I thought you were a straight shooter. I guess I thought wrong.

Nope. The man being absent disqualifies the episode from that law. I won't add to the scripture. Minority schmynority.

You are adding to the scripture with this statement. We don't know what was going on with the man. Like I've said, neither of us knows and as such neither of us can 100% conclude what was going on. Is it really that hard for you to admit that you can't make a 100% decision either way as to what was happening?

 

[matt wade]

This is the same kind of manure (so called logic) that so called homosexual Christians use to justify their lifestyle.

The difference with homosexuals is that we have clear teaching in the NT against homosexuality. We also have no record of Jesus interacting with a homosexual or saying that their lifestyle choice was anything but sinful.

 

[freeatlast]

I did not say there were homosexual Christians. I said "so called" homosexual Christians.

Just as Matt has taken an extreme left position you have taken an extreme right position. One takes grace way too far while the other ignores grace. Both are wrong and pervert scripture.

Please explain what you mean by taking the right too far.

 

[Matt Black]

Enlighten us then old great one and rid us of our Biblical ignorance by quoting Voltaire. Please!!!

It means that the execution of eg: McVeigh should have discouraged others from committing murder. Clearly it doesn't.

 

[HankD]

Actually I don't believe the pharisees were indicating that they were about to stone the woman...

John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?​

They were asking His opinion.​

They also had a Roman edict hanging over them that no death penalty could be issued unless it was authorized by the ruling Roman Prefect (whose social promiscuity certainly thought the death penalty for adultery absurd, neither was it part of their formal law).​

I believe the important fact taught in this account is that yes, the rule of God for man was about to take a change (though God Himself does not change) to diminish the harshness of the law (which brought Christ) which clearly portrayed the justice and holiness of God and, contracted by this account and others, the fulness of time having come- to foreshadow and emphasize the agape characteristics of God - grace, mercy, truth compassion and longsuffering which would follow after and characterize the gospel of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ the Savior of the world for those who would come to Him.​

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.​

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.​

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.​

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

HankD​

 

[Matt Black]

It's an interesting question, Bro Curtis, though: as the Law commanded that the death penalty be exacted for adultery as much as for murder, surely if we are to execute murderers then we should equally execute adulterers. Calvin's Geneva wasn't squeamish about this; why are you?

This is the same kind of manure (so called logic) that so called homosexual Christians use to justify their lifestyle.

Apples and oranges.

 

[freeatlast]

It means that the execution of eg: McVeigh should have discouraged others from committing murder. Clearly it doesn't.

Matt you are partially right and partially wrong. The death sentence does discourage murder for many just like prison or other punishments for crime discourage some from their crime although not in an absolute way.

I would guess the proof is within yourself as well as most of us. As with many of us there has been times when we would like to have killed someone, but was discouraged because of getting caught and punished. Yes perhaps there are those who are so righteous that the thought never enters their mind but for most we are not. The same with theft and every other crime.

For the child of God holding to the death penalty or any penalty for any crime should never be because it is a deterrent but to exercise justice. We should not only hold to His values but His consequences for crime that He commands. Not to do so would be like someone claiming to be a Christian who accepts the teaching of heaven and rejects the teaching of hell. Those people are rejecting the God of the bible just like anyone who rejects the death penalty for murder.

The death penalty was not given as a deterrent by God other wise God failed in His effort because we still have murderers. The death penalty was given by God because it is the just thing to do to those who do murder and IF we claim to know and follow Him we must trust Him in His command to put them to death. Someone will say what about mercy. We do that also by telling them about how to escape eternal torment before they are executed. That way we have carried out the justice of God and His mercy as well but we never compromise one for the other if we are following the God of the bible.

That alone is why we should have the death penalty today. Not for getting back at someone or trying to give a deterrent, but because God calls for it and as it has never been receded.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It's an interesting question, Bro Curtis, though: as the Law commanded that the death penalty be exacted for adultery as much as for murder, surely if we are to execute murderers then we should equally execute adulterers. Calvin's Geneva wasn't squeamish about this; why are you?

Because whether I support it or not, it is Biblical. God does not need my stamp of approval.

Sorry if you don't like that answer, but it's the best yer gonna get from me. Deal with it.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Don't be dramatic.

Don't be so un-Christian.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It's an interesting question, Bro Curtis, though: as the Law commanded that the death penalty be exacted for adultery as much as for murder, surely if we are to execute murderers then we should equally execute adulterers. Calvin's Geneva wasn't squeamish about this; why are you?

This is the same kind of manure (so called logic) that so called homosexual Christians use to justify their lifestyle.

That is exactly correct.

 

[jaigner]

Don't be so un-Christian.

Just how, may I ask, am I being un-christian?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Sorry, J, but I'm not going to derail this thread with a disgusting abortion topic just thrown in. If you can't address the subject, then start another thread.

 

[Matt Black]

Because whether I support it or not, it is Biblical.

The same can be said of the death penalty for adultery.

Sorry if you don't like that answer, but it's the best yer gonna get from me. Deal with it.

I have...and I have reached a different conclusion based on the same Bible and same Holy Spirit.

 

[Matt Black]

That is exactly correct.

Inexactly incorrect. As I said earlier, apples and oranges: we are not talking about whether murder, adultery or homosexual behaviour are wrong or sinful - clearly we all agree that they are. We are discussing the appropriate punishment for such sins. Now, in the OT the punishment was the same for all these sins: death. However, Jesus made it clear with His treatment of the woman taken in adultery in Jn 8 that the death penalty for adultery was no longer appropriate as far as He was concerned and, unlike Calvin's Geneva, we don't execute adulterers or homosexuals, nor do I hear much clamour from DP-supporting Christians to do so. I therefore conclude, on Biblical grounds that the death penalty is inappropriate for murder likewise.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I would also add to Sag38's post that the attitude prevails over a LOT of scripture, like the banning of women preachers, for instance. If you doubt the word of God, and look to wiggle around what it says, you can almost make yer own version of Christianity.

The Holy Spirit doesn't convict people to doubt the word of God. Sorry. It started in the garden...."yea, hath God said..."

We know who tempts people to lean to their own understanding. It ain't the Holy Spirit.

 

[Matt Black]

And how do you know that your conclusion isn't based in part at least on your own understanding. Are you perfect? Are you claiming some kind of secret knowledge or inspiration of the Holy Spirit that other Christians don't have?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Because I don't add the ABSENT man to the story. Your OPINION is based on somehow the man being there, but not mentioned.

Did the Holy Spirit tell you the man involed was there ?

No, he didn't. You have to pretend he was there, and then base your OPINION on that. If anyone is claiming extra-biblical inspiration, it's the guy who keeps dragging the ABSENT man into the story.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Actually I don't believe the pharisees were indicating that they were about to stone the woman...

John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?​

They were asking His opinion.​

They also had a Roman edict hanging over them that no death penalty could be issued unless it was authorized by the ruling Roman Prefect (whose social promiscuity certainly thought the death penalty for adultery absurd, neither was it part of their formal law).​

I believe the important fact taught in this account is that yes, the rule of God for man was about to take a change (though God Himself does not change) to diminish the harshness of the law (which brought Christ) which clearly portrayed the justice and holiness of God and, contracted by this account and others, the fulness of time having come- to foreshadow and emphasize the agape characteristics of God - grace, mercy, truth compassion and longsuffering which would follow after and characterize the gospel of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ the Savior of the world for those who would come to Him.​

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.​

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.​

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.​

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

HankD​

Excellent post. Thank you.

Off to work.