Why is there evil in the world?

[Winman]

Man is fully resonsible,yet his will is bound by his fallen dead sin nature

If man is absolutely enslaved to a sinful nature which God caused, then God is responsible for man's evil.

If I program a robot to do good, I am responsible for it's actions. If I program a robot to do evil, I am responsible for the robot's actions.

Nowhere do the scriptures ever teach that a man is absolutely compelled to do evil. There are hundreds of verses where God pleads with men to turn from evil and do good. This would be non-sensical if man is absolutely enslaved to always do evil, and God is NEVER non-sensical.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God says he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked and pleads with men to turn from evil. This would make no sense unless man has the ability to turn from sin.

Calvinism makes God to be a very confused person. According to Calvinism, God curses men with a sinful nature that completely enslaves him. Man has absolutely no power to do good. God knows this perfectly well, as he is the one who placed this curse on man. Nevertheless, God pleads with men to do good when he knows it is absolutely impossible for man to do so.

So Calvinism almost portrays God to be crazy.

You may think you honor God by making him responsible for every action that occurs, but you actually accuse him of evil, and of being a very mixed up and confused person as well.

The Jews sacrificed their children to Baal, and God said he never commanded or spoke it, or that it ever came into his heart or mind.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

God does not control every event as Calvinism falsely teaches. God never commanded the Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Baal, and it never came into his heart.

 

[Iconoclast]

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

17But thank God, though you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient with all your heart to the standard of teaching in which you were instructed and to which you were committed.

18And having been set free from sin, you have become the servants of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in thought, purpose, and action).

Winman
this kind of opinion and accuasation about God is evil speaking

If man is absolutely enslaved to a sinful nature which God caused, then God is responsible for man's evil.

Nowhere do the scriptures ever teach that a man is absolutely compelled to do evil.

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Calvinism makes God to be a very confused person.

This is a vile statement,please stop. If you cannot handle the accurate teaching then back out of it.

then you say this;

God does not control every event

Winman.....learn the lesson of Dan 4 before you continue to blaspheme God.

31 While the word was still in the king’s mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! 32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.”

33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.

Nebuchadnezzar Praises God


34 And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:

For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom is from generation to generation.
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done?” 36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.

 

[Winman]

You don't even realize the scripture you quoted to support your view actually refutes it.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Does this verse say that you are a slave to sin and must therefore obey it?

No, it says to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are.

This verse is not saying you must sin because you are a slave to sin, it is saying the exact opposite. It is saying that whoever you yield yourselves to obey, you become their servant.

You don't rob a bank because you were born a bank robber, you become a bank robber when you rob a bank. How could you be a bank robber if you never robbed a bank? It is the same with sin, how can you possibly be a slave to sin unless you first sin?

This is yet another case of Calvinism teaching exactly the opposite of what the scriptures truly say. You need to read more carefully with comprehension.

 

[Iconoclast]

You don't even realize the scripture you quoted to support your view actually refutes it.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Does this verse say that you are a slave to sin and must therefore obey it?

No, it says to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are.

This verse is not saying you must sin because you are a slave to sin, it is saying the exact opposite. It is saying that whoever you yield yourselves to obey, you become their servant.

You don't rob a bank because you were born a bank robber, you become a bank robber when you rob a bank.

This is yet another case of Calvinism teaching exactly the opposite of what the scriptures truly say. You need to read more carefully with comprehension.

Winman,
The context of Romans 6 is that of Spirit baptized persons 6:3-6
Jesus has set them free,they are now free from sins reign and able to obey, by the indwelling Spirit.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Winman]

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

This verse does not teach man is compelled to sin, it is simply saying that men were doing evil continually at that time. You add to this verse what it does not say.

 

[Winman]

Winman,
The context of Romans 6 is that of Spirit baptized persons 6:3-6
Jesus has set them free,they are now free from sins reign and able to obey, by the indwelling Spirit.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't know what you are saying here, I fully agree the wages of sin is death.

But Romans 6:16 does not teach that a person must sin because they are enslaved to sin, it teaches the opposite, that men are enslaved because they sin.

Being free from sin is speaking of the penalty of sin. It is not saying you must sin, it is saying you must die because you sinned (vs. 21). Now, in that respect we are enslaved to sin, if we sin we must die. But that is altogether different from saying we are absolutely compelled to sin as you falsely teach.

 

[Iconoclast]

One of us is teaching falsehood....I agree.:thumbs:

lets go from 14

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Paul thanks God.....not the sinner....that they were under sins dominion,its power, but Jesus set them free....they do not thank themselves for saving them self by a false philosophical free will
\

 

[Winman]

One of us is teaching falsehood....I agree.:thumbs:

lets go from 14

Paul thanks God.....not the sinner....that they were under sins dominion,its power, but Jesus set them free....they do not thank themselves for saving them self by a false philosophical free will
\

Sin does not have dominion over me since I accepted Christ. Before I accepted Christ I was under the dominion of sin and would have died forever and gone to hell. After receiving Christ I am no longer under sin's dominion and now I have everlasting life and will go to heaven.

I still sin though. And if you are honest you will admit you do too. If your intepretation is correct, then we should not be able to sin after receiving Christ. After all, now we are slaves or servants to God.

No, go back and read Romans 6:16 again. It does not teach that you sin because you are a slave of sin, it teaches the very opposite, you are a slave to sin when you choose (yield yourself) to sin.

You are not born a drug addict, you become a drug addict (a slave to drugs) when you choose to start taking drugs. This is what Rom 6:16 is saying of sin.

Calvinism turns much scripture around to say the very opposite of what it truly says.

 

[Amy.G]

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


What about Noah and his family? They were NOT evil. They were the only ones on the earth that believed God.


Now the reason man was so evil could be because of the fallen angels that procreated with women which produced a race of totally evil beings (Satan's attempt to stop the bloodline of the Messiah), and God had to destroy them. But that is another topic.

 

[Iconoclast]

23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Quote:
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually


This verse does not teach man is compelled to sin, it is simply saying that men were doing evil continually at that time. You add to this verse what it does not say.
Today 10:34 PM

every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually
it does not say...only at that time....it says only evil continually

Sin does not have dominion over me since I accepted Christ

the passage teaches that sins dominion is broken,over any sinner that
God draws to himself.

[QUOTEQUOTE]I still sin though. And if you are honest you will admit you do too.[/QUOTE]

yes thats why Paul wrote romans 7.....then 8...it is a complete salvation

If your intepretation is correct, then we should not be able to sin after receiving Christ.

false again.....the bondage to sin is broken, yet we are able to sin 1jn1:9

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Calvinism turns much scripture around to say the very opposite of what it truly says.

No....you turn the truth around with a man centered gospel,resisting the historic position of the church.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amy......good question,lets see if the bible gives a reason for Noah's belief in God.....

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Yes.....Moses was also a calvinist....he has to point out by the Spirit why noah believed.

and then this;

18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee

oh no.....covenant theology why can't it just stay simple?
Is God preserving the godly line by destroying the wicked?

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

The grace of God always causes faith and obedience.God is always mindful of His covenant.

 

[Iconoclast]

winman.....i missed this quote when you said this;
[QUOTEYou are not born a drug addict, you become a drug addict (a slave to drugs) when you choose to start taking drugs. This is what Rom 6:16 is saying of sin.][/QUOTE]

Why can you not see it this way?

QUOTEYou are not born a drug addict.......you are born a sinner dead in adam
rom5:12-19

you become a drug addict (a slave to drugs) when you choose to start taking drugs.....when your sin and rebellion leads you to drug s or alcohol....
you choose it because you are bound to a life in rebellion to God that desires wickedness......

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life

the word servant means willing bondslave......

A-1,Noun,1401,doulos>
an adjective, signifying "in bondage," Rom. 6:19 (neuter plural, agreeing with mele, "members"), is used as a noun, and as the most common and general word for "servant," frequently indicating subjection without the idea of bondage; it is used (a) of natural conditions, e.g., Matt. 8:9; 1 Cor. 7:21,22 (1st part); Eph. 6:5; Col. 4:1; 1 Tim. 6:1; frequently in the four Gospels; (b) metaphorically of spiritual, moral and ethical conditions: "servants" (1) of God, e.g., Acts 16:17; Titus 1:1; 1 Pet. 2:16; Rev. 7:3; 15:3; the perfect example being Christ Himself, Phil. 2:7; (2) of Christ, e.g., Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 7:22 (2nd part); Gal. 1:10; Eph. 6:6; Phil. 1:1; Col. 4:12; Jas. 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:1; Jude 1:1; (3) of sin, John 8:34 (RV, "bondservants"); Rom. 6:17,20; (4) of corruption, 2 Pet. 2:19 (RV, "bondservants"); cp. the verb douloo (see B). See BONDMAN.

"to enslave, to bring into bondage" (akin to A, No. 1), e.g., 1 Cor. 9:19, RV, "I brought (myself) under bondage (to all)," AV, "I made myself servant," denotes in the Passive Voice, "to be brought into bondage, to become a slave or servant," rendered "ye became servants (of righteousness)" in Rom. 6:18; "being ... become servants (to God)," Rom. 6:22. See BONDAGE, B, No. 2.

 

[psalms109:31]

Doctrine

1 Timothy 1:

Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
The Lord’s Grace to Paul
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:
16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

2 Timothy 4

1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

James 5:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

God isn't waiting on no one. We who believe God isn't depending on us to believe we are depending on God that His promise will save us. Who are we to question God and His sovereignty on how He decided to save mankind.

Can we really tell God He can't do what He is doing because of Him destroying His sovereignty? He is the one who said He is going to save those who believe in His Son, who gave us the right to judge God?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke wrote:



Agreed. God did know man would sin and provided a Saviour for all men. God also knew who would believe and elected them.

Sure he did. And he still designed the universe knowing that man would sin exactly as he did. What does that tell you about evil? It tells you he planned for it- he intended it. He could have made Adam so he would not have chosen evil, couldn't he? He could have made a world where no suffering would ever take place. Do you deny it?

he knew exactly every single outcome of the world he designed and yet he designed it just the way he did. He knew if he made the world a certain way and Adam a certain way and Lucifer a certain way and the Serpent a certain way and Eve a certain way that sin would come to pass. Yet he made them all exactly as he made them which means of necessity that he planned for evil to come to pass.

The Bible says as much doesn't it? God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. For of him and through Him and to him are ALL things.

Winman- God hates evil. He hates it. He despises it. But it serves a glorious purpose- that Christ might forever be praised for his grace and mercy and sacrifice at Calvary.

There is no praise for Calvary if there is no evil- period. So God built the universe in such a way that evil would come to pass so that God could commend (SHOW) his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!

God did not want a universe without a Calvary. He designed the universe for Calvary. Do you wish Calvary had never taken place? Do you wish that Jesus would go forever without a shred of praise for Calvary???

Then you must realize that Calvary was God's plan and EVIL WAS A NECESSARY PART OF THAT PLAN. No evil- no Calvary.

God planned evil. Period. There is nothing that he did not plan. He orchestrated the universe so that Calvary would take place. Calvary is the high point of the universe, the climax of the Scripture, the source or eternal praise to Christ Jesus for unspeakable mercy and grace upon sinners-

No evil- no Calvary.

Do you think that God did not ordain Calvary? Do you think that Calvary was not the primary purpose of Creation? Do you think Calvary is possible without evil?

I disagree for two reasons. If man could not sin, man would be perfectly holy and equal to God.

One day man will be in a state where he cannot sin. "Sin will be no more". Do you think that means that man will then be equal to God Almighty???

Do you think those angels which kept their first estate are equal to God???

This cannot be. God cannot sin.

Absolutely. I don't know of a single person who thinks God can sin.

Adam and Eve were good, but they had the ability to sin and did.

No kidding. Who doesn't believe this?

Adam and Eve (or any created being such as angels) cannot be equal to God.

how does never committing sin make one equal to God?? This is poor logic on your part isn't it? You need to abandon this line of argument, don't you?

The second reason is love requires choice. In order to truly love someone you must have the choice and option of not loving them.

Can Jesus Christ NOT love the Father? Is it possible for Jesus to NOT love the Father??

Of course not. Are you saying then that Jesus' love is to the Father is not true??

Is it possible for God to stop loving you? No. Are you saying them that God's love for you is not true??

If anything love BEST manifests itself when it is so great that the ability NOT to love has vanished.

Even Elvis knew this when he sung "I can't HELP falling in love with you" didn't he? That's when love is at it's greatest.

Oh what glorious security!! God can't help but love me!!!

Oh what infinite love has existed in eternity past and exists throughout eternity still between the Trinity!! The Holy Spirit cannot help but love Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ cannot help but LOVE the Father!!

This, Winman, this love without the ability to choose otherwise, this is REAL love.

Not so, God showed great grace and love to Adam and Eve. He created them good and without sin, he placed them in a magnificant garden and provided everything they would ever need to live.

Grace is unmerited favor. For grace to be most clear it must be MOST undeserved. Who deserves Grace the least? Adam before his fallen state or you and I who are totally wicked. God loving you and I manifests the glorious heights and depths of his grace. "Where sin did abound grace did much MORE abound!"

His grace could shine forth to some degree without sin but never like it can when it saves wicked sinners. The power of it could exist but not be displayed and fully appreciated had it not been for Calvary.

And how does Christ receive praise for mercy without sin. There are no sinners to be infinitely merciful unto if there is no sin, is there?

Well, strictly speaking, yes, mercy cannot be shown unless God provides forgiveness for sin. However, God did show love and kindness to man without sin.

Then you would have him never receive an ounce of praise for mercy. At the very least you would have the praises he WILL receive for mercy throughout eternity as not part of his ordained plan and will.

Saying sin was necessary for sinners to exist is circular reasoning.

That's not true. not at all. No more than saying fire is necessary for heat is circular reasoning. That's silly Winman. It is not circular reasoning.


You still owe us a retraction- see post 131 in the "What can unregenerate man do?" thread.


And when are you going to respond to post 128 in that same thread????????? I've asked you several times now.

 

[Luke2427]

You are wrong. You have been corrected. :tongue3:
I'm not stumped, just tired of repeating myself. There comes a time for my own sake and the sake of others that I need to back off.


I have answered repeatedly. See above.

No you haven't. Post 56 is just one of numerous examples I can site. I looked at your public profile and followed your posts and it is clear that you are avoiding nearly all the pertinent arguments put to you on this thread.

 

[psalms109:31]

Created man

God created with a free will even Calvinist believe this about Adam and Eve, why because God isn't going to force one to love Him and He wouldn't created man this way that is what you what us to think, but we do not. He should of done something to avoid this, but God would not create man that way, by the fact that He didn't and He could.

Those who don't love Him do it by their own evil desire, not God's. God is only going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the Lord and they will persevere to the end.

A Creator create that is what He does, if they are evil it is not God's desire, but their own evil desire.

They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God created with a free will even Calvinist believe this about Adam and Eve, why because God isn't going to force one to love Him and He wouldn't created man this way that is what you what us to think, but we do not. He should of done something to avoid this, but God would not create man that way, by the fact that He didn't and He could.

Those who don't love Him do it by their own evil desire, not God's. God is only going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the Lord and they will persevere to the end.

A Creator create that is what He does, if they are evil it is not God's desire, but their own evil desire.

They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

How do you interpret Romans 9:6-18 then?

 

[Jim1999]

The only thing we equate with Adam is original sin. Our free will falls under the permissive will of God, a subtitle under absolute sovereignty. Man has the free will to sin, and he is dead in his sins.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[psalms109:31]

Will of God

How do you interpret Romans 9:6-18 then?

The children Abraham are those who believed God. It isn't by natural decent or by human choice.

It is God choice to save them, and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on, and there is nothing you can do about it.

God can do what He want to to those who have not trusted in His name.

 

[psalms109:31]

Promise

God can hate Esua and love Jacob on this earth, but when it comes to the judgement seat of Christ there will be no favoritism.