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Why Not More Doctrinal Unity Among Greek Students
- Thread starter JD731
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We see that word of faith use [pretty much user the kjv, as do Mormons and JW, as well as baptists, do we all agree on doctrines then?
Some people makes a big deal about the will of God. What is the will of God for us concerning what his bible teaches? Do we know? Can we tell?
I know of three prayers that Paul, the apostle to gentiles prayed under inspiration of God. In all three he is desiring that we increase in the knowledge of God. The will of God is that we know him and he wrote his word in the infinite manner of God, which means it is a well without a bottom.and we can learn new things as long as we live and study it.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world (age), but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
same prayer is found in esv/Nas and Nkjv!
@JD731
When the KJV states without the slightest qualifiers that the will of man is not involved, then I am conformed to that statement. I don’t agree with those who present some diminishment to the Scripture statement made in John 1.
Those who puff up the original will as sufficient, in which to engage some old nature innate faith, do not understand that absolutely nothing of the old nature, (will, mind or strength and body) will ever enter into God’s presence.
This is why we are NEW creatures, a new creation, with a new will and spirit from God which (because we currently remain bound in the nature of the flesh) most certainly does war against the flesh and the desires (old will) of the flesh.
This is the teaching of the KJV which is strongly supported by the translators of that version who were highly esteemed Scholars and mostly Calvinistic thinkers.
Here is a topic yet to be resolved.
How did the same version produce those who follow some Methodist, Church of Christ, Assemblies, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Mormon, and a host of various Baptist groups?
If, as some have taught, the KJV is doctrinally as or more sound then even the original language manuscripts, why is there so much confusion?
The answer is contained in the acknowledgment of who is the author of confusion, and conformity to error?
When the KJV states without the slightest qualifiers that the will of man is not involved, then I am conformed to that statement. I don’t agree with those who present some diminishment to the Scripture statement made in John 1.
Those who puff up the original will as sufficient, in which to engage some old nature innate faith, do not understand that absolutely nothing of the old nature, (will, mind or strength and body) will ever enter into God’s presence.
This is why we are NEW creatures, a new creation, with a new will and spirit from God which (because we currently remain bound in the nature of the flesh) most certainly does war against the flesh and the desires (old will) of the flesh.
This is the teaching of the KJV which is strongly supported by the translators of that version who were highly esteemed Scholars and mostly Calvinistic thinkers.
Here is a topic yet to be resolved.
How did the same version produce those who follow some Methodist, Church of Christ, Assemblies, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Mormon, and a host of various Baptist groups?
If, as some have taught, the KJV is doctrinally as or more sound then even the original language manuscripts, why is there so much confusion?
The answer is contained in the acknowledgment of who is the author of confusion, and conformity to error?
You say it is. But one place it definitely is not found for me and that is in Hebrew and Greek because I cannot read those languages. Paul was praying for the common man in those three prayers I quoted to you and to people, gentiles, who had no history with God before 40 AD when God opened the door of faith to them with the keys he gave to Peter in Matt 16. Paul confirmed this is when the door of faith was opened in Acts 14 in Antioch.
Paul is not praying for any spooky magic. The epistles of the NT are written to explain the history of the beginning of the NT church that unfolded in the Acts as recorded by Luke. Gentiles knew nothing about God in the years of the OT except what they had observed by their interaction with Israel and Judah afar off. He is writing these 13 letters to gentiles and he is praying for a fruitful ministry among us because the gentiles have been made partakers of the spiritual blessings of Israel and the new covenant, which is forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost and the power to become the sons of God. We could not force God to make us gentiles partakers of his glorious salvation according to John 1:14, but he could include us in his blessings by his grace, and he did. Thanks and praise to God for that.
I am not guessing about this. I have it in plain words from the inspired pen of the apostle Paul, who is speaking to us in Christ's stead. Here.
Ro 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 ¶ I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22 ¶ For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.
23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;
24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your [company].
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.
29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
You fellows seem to be wanting to set up a sort of priesthood or hierarchy of some sort and make the Hebrew and Greek speakers the leaders of the church of Jesus Christ. Our Lord said he hated that. It is a temptation that is hard to resist but when I see people so dedicated to oppose simple people who believe they have a bible that gives us every word of God, I know it is because it is a threat to the status quo. It is not acceptable in this generation. Why else would you accept all these bibles and paraphrases?
Here is a guy on this very thread, that opposes the entire NT that is a promise of God that if sinners will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ he will give them forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and make them sons of God, saying that sinners do not have the capacity to believe the simple gospel of Christ and be saved. Nobody has a problem with this kind of theology but the independent Fundamental Baptists on here join with him to oppose someone who dares to think they have every word of God and believes what he says.
Mr 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
The apostle Paul did not write the English words in the KJV. You are in effect guessing, supposing, or assuming that the English words in the KJV accurately translate the original-language words given by inspiration to the apostle Paul since the Scriptures do not state nor teach what you suppose concerning the KJV.
The KJV translators acknowledged that they added many words in English for which they had no original-language words of Scripture, and they also indicated that they provided no English renderings for some original-language words of Scripture.
You have not demonstrated from the Scriptures that the word of God is bound to the textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England priests in 1611.
You misunderstand or misrepresent those who disagree with non-scriptural KJV-only teaching.
It is human, non-scriptural KJV-only teaching that would set up a sort of priesthood or hierarchy of some sort and would in effect make the Church of England priests who made the KJV the leaders/popes of the English-speaking church of Jesus Christ.
The apostle Paul did not write the words of his epistles in the Greek either, except possibly the epistle to the Galatians.
Ro 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote [this] epistle, salute you in the Lord.
Ga 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
And what does that prove? The scriptures claim to be the word of God, not the words of Paul. God has editorial license. We see this in use in the quotations from the OT into the NT.
God's giving of the Scriptures by the miracle of inspiration to the prophets and apostles ended with the completion of the New Testament so what you call "God's editorial license" in translating quotations from the OT would have in effect also ended. Any translating in the New Testament of Old Testament quotations was part of the giving of the New Testament by inspiration of God to the apostles and NT prophets. After the completion of the New Testament, the Scriptures do not suggest that the giving of Scripture by the process of the miracle of inspiration of God continued.
The Scriptures do not teach that the textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England priests/critics in 1611 are directly the words of God given by the process of inspiration. The KJV translators did not have editorial license to add to the pure words of God, to omit from the pure words of God, and to change the pure words of God to renderings that favored Church of England doctrines such as episcopal church government, apostolic succession.
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You are putting words into the mouth of God that he did not say and are merely stating an opinion. If you would like to give chapter and verse for your theology I will be happy to read it and even agree with you.
I would like for people to understand something about you. In this whole conversation you have not quoted anything God has had to say whether in Hebrew, Greek, the Geneva 1560 bible, the KJV, or any modern version. You do not take your views from the scriptures. This is true on almost all threads where you participate and state your opinions. It is my view that your hatred is clouding your view.
This op did not mention the KJV. It merely asked the question why Greek language students and teachers do not have more doctrinal unity. No one that I know of has claimed that the KJV brings unity in doctrine. Most people who are KJV only believers are so because they believe it is the word of God. There is no magic in the KJV. You men are the ones who say that one must consult the Greek in order to have the authority but I notice when you do there is no doctrinal authority that changes any of you one whit. A hyper Calvinist who decides to study the original languages will remain a hyper Calvinist even after he becomes fluent in both languages of the bible.A Reformed Baptist will not change and become a Presbyterian hyper Calvinist. An independent fundamental Baptist will still be an independent fundamental Baptist after he becomes a Greek scholar and teacher.
The issue between some of these denominations is a division on how a sinner gets saved and who can be saved. There are some fundamental Christian doctrines that you can't be wrong about. One cannot believe in Jesus Christ and not believe what God the Father says about him. It is Jesus Christ, the Son of God who died for us and paid our sin debt because he loves sinners like me, and praise God for that, but it is God the Father, the judge of all the earth who justifies the sinner and gives him life.
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for
Ro 4:20 He (Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his believing God) was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father - see Gal 1:1) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
I learned this without the help of the Greek language. I have been reading my KJV. My motto has become "Believe the Words."
Ro 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time (the present age - post resurrection) his (God the Father's) righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Your statements and allegations are not true. I have quoted from the KJV in this thread and in many threads. KJV-only advocates do not accept what God had to say in Hebrew and in Greek as being greater in authority than how the KJV translators translated it. I do take my views from the Scriptures so your allegation would bear false witness.
Your improper tactic seems to be to attack the person making statements rather than address what they actually state.
You seem to assume that your interpretations are superior to those of all other believers. You seem to try to compare or measure other believers by you yourself.
2 Corinthians 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves, but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
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It seems the point of your thread served no purpose since you now admit that the KJV does not bring unity in doctrine. Your question was soundly addressed.
The problem might be as simple as having different definitions for the word "quote." Or, I could have missed some of your comments where your response included quotes that matched my definition. If so, I do apologize for that.
Actually, the opposite is usually true. As churches and denominations become more and more liberal, they tend to move away from teaching and learning the Hebrew and Greek. I have a friend who is a former United Methodist pastor, now turned independent Baptist after retirement. The United Methodist seminary he went to for an M.Div. did not even teach Hebrew and Greek.
KJVO believers and liberals thus have this in common: they do not wish to know what the Bible says in the original languages, because they are satisfied with their ignorance. Liberals don't want to obey the Bible, which they think is full of myths and errors. KJVO folk do not want to know the Hebrew and Greek because they are self-satisfied with the English, and learning Hebrew and Greek is a lot of work, and who wants to work to study the Bible, anyhow?
Many of my Greek students in both Japan and the US are now out in the ministry, pastoring and being missionaries. Not one single student of mine--NOT ONE--has left Biblical Christianity. All are faithful to the Lord. That's what knowing the Hebrew and Greek does for you--gives you a greater appreciation and understanding of the Lord our God.
Well, I have never been compared to a liberal, but okay. I am not offended.
From your comments I can conclude that you do not agree with what I have been told for a long time. That good translations are true to the original languages and that they are accurate and believers can know anything about God that original language students can, and if not, expect a new one to solve that problem..
So far you are the only person who has attempted to answer the question of my op. Thank you. Now I know you think that you have an advantage and people who know nothing but what they get from an English translation, especially the KJV and whatever translations the Methodists use, are ignorant.
You're twisting my words. I never said you or anyone else is ignorant of the Bible, and I don't believe that to be true. You are simply ignorant of Greek and Hebrew, but many great Christians have not known the Hebrew and Greek: Billy Sunday, D. L. Moody, my mother, my wife's home church pastor, and many others.
I do believe that the original languages can give added insight into many passages. I mentioned the two Greek words for "burden" in Gal. 6. I personally was very much helped when I learned the meanings there. Otherwise, it appeared to be a contradiction to me.
You really should ask questions about what I believe rather than assume you know me. I have not tried to put anything in your mouth, but simply interacted with your posts.
Have a wonderful Christmas.
I am now getting back into the Greek text and studies now once again, and have found that the Greek so far does not give me a "big wow factor", but does help me to understand a bit of the more nuanced meanings at times hard to see in the English translations!
Well Amen. I have said over and over that I am not opposed to anyone who learns the Greek and Hebrew language. That has never been my position. I consult the lexicons all the time in my studies. I think I even gave you an example from 1 Cor 13 how doing that opened my eyes to the perfect thing in that chapter and helped me to understand why charity was the greatest principle of the three that were mentioned in that chapter. I am not in the camp that believes there is no benefit to consulting those languages to the extent that my training and intelligence will allow me but that does not keep me from believing God has preserved his words in English. I am glad I now know what the word Kartegeo means,in the Greek, and it was helpful but I can do that with any passage without learning the language. Dead sure I am not going to replace the English word with the Greek word.
I quoted 3 prayers of the apostle Paul in a previous post where he prayed for us gentiles. In his prayer a truth was confirmed in my mind that there is a certain amount of revelation that is involved for us to be able to grasp the deep things of God. Since there are no visions now, or voices, or thundering, or dreams, the revelation comes through the words of scripture. And isn't that what 1 Cor 2:12-13 says? "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
If we are not careful we will make an out of context application to the following verse, which says this:
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
While this saying is true in any application it is speaking of these Corinthians particularly in this passage, contrasting them to their former position without the Spirit to teach them the deep things of God that he has mentioned above. Their present advantage, denoted by the word "now" in verse 12, demonstrates to them their ability to know these things because of the teacher who lives inside them. The Spirit resides in both God and us believers at the same time and if he is not in us we cannot know the mind of God. The last verse in this chapter says we have the mind of Christ.
Now, words are the vehicle of thoughts from God to man while we live in this weak body. Maybe it will not be that way when we get our glorified bodies, the scripture says we will know even as we are known, but for now we must have the words in which God is thinking. Our Lord Jesus said in John 6:63 that the words he speaks are spirit and they are life, after he said it is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing. We must have the Spirit first, then the words and then we can increase in the knowledge of God. I have concluded that when God thinks in English it is in the words of the KJV. I have tested them and studied them over a number of years and have found them to be true. When I meditate upon the word of God it is in the words of the KJV.
I know this,I have interacted with many people who knows Greek and/or Hebrew on these forums and it is like we are reading different accounts of God and Jesus Christ. Some are so far removed from the the texts and the contexts that I have concluded they are being led and taught by a different spirit. Thankfully this is not true of all G & H scholars.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
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