Why Not More Doctrinal Unity Among Greek Students

[agedman]

Logos, I personally know people who doubt all versions of Scripture because of things that you have posted about mistakes and errors in the King James version. They rationalize that if there are mistakes in the King James version there are mistakes in every version, in fact, you have started that yourself, so therefore because of what you posted they doubt every single version of Scripture. I pray that you would come to realize that you have caused other Christians to doubt any and all versions of the Word of God! I would be fearful of that. To say I'm mistaken is ridiculous, since I personally have listened to people tell me that they doubt the word of God because of what you and others like you posted. So whether you want to believe that or not, you have done serious harm to the cause of Christ! Get over yourself! You are not "right" all the time as you seem to think.

Never, NOT ever in my life have I found any person who brings doubt to the validity of the Scriptures whose life is not compromised by sinful decision making or they have been misinformed.

For example, I have visited with a local pastor who esteems Gail Ruckman's writing, and yet is completely misinformed concerning her lack of authority and background. As a result, he is KJV only and as an ostrich unwilling to view the evidence that what he bases his thinking upon is without veracity.

More to the point, what truly doctrinal errors occur in the Berean version? The earlier NASB version?

This thread needs to work on answers to those questions rather than the sniping I have been reading.

 

[JD731]

There is an obvious problem with some of the positions taken in this thread.

There are those who esteem the KJV perhaps to the point of excluding other translation work as in some manner corrupt.

Yet, I have not read any real work to show that any other translation is to be esteemed less then the KJV. What doctrine do the others avoid and not present factually?

For the record, I DO NOT esteem all work of translations the same. I do not enjoy nor hold that the NIV nor the NLV are of the same sturdiness. Personally, I view them for those who have little desire for the meat and need something less formally intellectual. That is my personal view, and perhaps some may disagree, I really don't care.

However, there are a few translations in which I hold with as much esteem and find them of equal veracity. The KJV, NKJV, NASB pre-1999, Berean study Bible and the Berean Literal Bible, the ESV (though somewhat less out of preference in use).

Of all these, I am truly surprised at the Berean work. Unless I am mistaken, and I am always open for those who show greater understanding, the Berean may become my all time favorite.

So, those of you who hold to the KJV as "only," what great doctrine has the KJV (other than a calvinistic church of england slant) present that the others avoid?

Seriously!

There must be some great doctrine that the others do not present.

And the argument of "trusting the Scriptures" really isn't a truthful statement. I trust the Scriptures over any man's word, any day, anytime.

What I want to see in this thread is someone presenting something factual from the Scriptures that shows some severe doctrinal confusion or misleading will take place using the NASB (pre-1999), the NKJV, the KJV, and the Berean.

Thank you!

This logic is hard to follow. You said;

However, there are a few translations in which I hold with as much esteem and find them of equal veracity. The KJV, NKJV, NASB pre-1999, Berean study Bible and the Berean Literal Bible, the ESV (though somewhat less out of preference in use).

If they are "equal" why another one after the first one with veracity?

 

[agedman]

...
I could be wrong about all this but I don't think I am. I think the 3 Pauline prayers I quoted on this forum earlier concerning his desire for our enlightened minds and knowledge of the holy can be achieved in this era by a careful study of the KJV. The spiritual content of truth cannot be taught by men and the scriptures clearly says so. All these aids and new discoveries and new bibles must be measured by the true words of God, not the opposite way as you are teaching. If you can master the original languages and have the right texts you can probably test these things for truth as well, but it will not give you an advantage over me and my KJV.

I know that those in the Reformed movement will not like my post but I am just trying to tell what I believe to be true.

You are doing a good job at puffing, but have shown no real evidence concerning the doctrines of the faith.

Timothy was told to study, but there wasn't a KJV to study.
The anibaptist of France and Germany studied the Scriptures but did not use the KJV, but the Luther version (the Amish still do).
The Pilgrims and Puritans did not like the KJV and considered other translations of greater authority.

So, what do you bring?

You have made some mighty claims, but you have yet to present a single doctrine in which the other versions avoid or dismiss.

Upon what authority other than your own bluster do you present that the KJV is superior to any other?

Have you presented the texts of the translation in comparison to the texts used of others and by comparing and contrasting shown some weakness or doctrinal error?

If Timothy was told to study, where is your work in this matter being evidenced?

Again, I am not in any manner dismissing or discrediting the KJV, but neither am I going to bring such accusations against the Berean work or the NASB pre-1999 or the NKJV (even with the Scoffield notes).

 

[agedman]

This logic is hard to follow. You said;


If they are "equal" why another one after the first one with veracity?

Why Not?

When I read the Scriptures, I am not looking to accomplish a goal, but for meaning that God's work in me - His goal is accomplished.

Therefore, I read from a variety, and even consult the languages.

What doctrine(s) do you find in the KJV that are not found in the other versions I mentioned?

 

[agedman]

@JD731 stated:

Some people makes a big deal about the will of God. What is the will of God for us concerning what his bible teaches? Do we know? Can we tell?

I know of three prayers that Paul, the apostle to gentiles prayed under inspiration of God. In all three he is desiring that we increase in the knowledge of God. The will of God is that we know him and he wrote his word in the infinite manner of God, which means it is a well without a bottom.and we can learn new things as long as we live and study it.​

He posted three prayers below only from the KJV.

So, I have again posted those prayers, however from the Berean Study Bible.

I ask, is there really any significant difference?

Anything doctrine unsoundly presented that would bring a lack of veracity to the Word?

Again, I am not discrediting the KJV, but questioning the presentations of this thread.

Eph1

15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him. 18I ask that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.​

Col 1

9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and may please Him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have full endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.​

Eph 3

12In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God’s presence with boldness and confidence. 13So I ask you not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory. 14... for this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I ask that out of the riches of His glory He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Then you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18will have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth 19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.​

 

[agedman]

The purpose of the thread was upon unity.

The question resolved around the concern that knowing and study of languages and the development of new translations has not resulted in greater unity of believers.

To that end, answers were given, and then the thread became (as many do) side tracked into exaltation of one version.

I have posted some responses concerning the exaltation, and my own thinking, while asking for more discussion.

This post is to respond to another issue brought up in the thread. It is concerning the reformed teaching on the atonement and in particular limited atonement.
A few things:

1) All schemes that deal with the doctrine of atonement present it limited in some manner - either by God or by humans - with the exception of one that is heretical.
2) Not everyone in the reformed camp hold to every point of the reformed camp's reputed thinking.
3) Not everyone in the not reformed camp hold to every point of the not reformed camp's reputed thinking.
4) There have been long and will be long threads concerning this matter and this thread wasn't about atonement.
​

I am reminded of reading about an early church writer recording the last days of the Apostle John.

He reported that John became so feeble that he would be carried into the assembly, and when taken to speak to the people would say, "My Children, dwell in love and unity." and then as we of a certain age do so often, kept repeating himself.

@JD731 had a very important and insightful point at the start of this thread.

Why is there not more unity.

Is it because there is a lack of love?

Doctrinal purity is important. This is one reason I cannot agree with some presentations by pastors, for the message does not stand the sifting of Scriptures.

Doing the work of the Word is important. But it matters little how much word and work one does if they have not love.

Perfect love casts out fear, and there is no common place for perfect love and fear.

Therefore, all readers beloved of the Lord, love one another, and although we may sharply disagree may we not neglect that first love and that love for the brethern (and sisters, .... I suppose).

 

[Logos1560]

To say I'm mistaken is ridiculous, since I personally have listened to people tell me that they doubt the word of God because of what you and others like you posted. So whether you want to believe that or not, you have done serious harm to the cause of Christ! Get over yourself! You are not "right" all the time as you seem to think.

I have nowhere claimed that I am "right" all the time.

You seem to think and assert that your allegations have to be right and true. Believers do not have to believe your allegations because you and others may reason incorrectly or may choose to jump to wrong conclusions.

It would not be at all ridiculous to maintain that truth does not conflict with biblical faith or that truth does not cause doubt concerning the Scriptures. The truth sets people free. God does not give people a spirit of fear of the truth. Some are not reasoning soundly and correctly if they supposedly think that truth causes doubt concerning the word of God. The truth does not enslave people to accept blindly non-scriptural opinions of men or false doctrine.

KJV-only teaching has done and is still doing serious harm to the cause of Christ. Exposing the problems with non-scriptural KJV-only teaching does not harm the cause of Christ.

Efforts to try to silence believers from stating or posting the facts or the truth does not promote the cause of Christ. Do you seek to keep the truth hidden? Do the Scriptures support people believing assertions that are true or assertions that are not true?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I never said they were losing their faith in Christ. I said they doubt the believability of any Scriptures, since these forums are filled with people like logos continually posting about how ALL Scriptures have errors. They rationalize that if you're not sure of certain passages, how can you be sure of any of it? < That is what you all have caused with your continued posts. Simple see that.

Hmmm. Rationalize? That seems to be describing an essentially emotional response, not a reasonable response.

If and when such are able to calm down and look at the matter rationally, then a good teacher can walk them through it.

People are imperfect. Copyists make errors. Translators make errors. Even printers make errors. And these people are making a huge error in judgment here.

However, if their faith is truly in Christ, then they will find the way through such difficulties.

 

[JD731]

@JD731 stated:

Some people makes a big deal about the will of God. What is the will of God for us concerning what his bible teaches? Do we know? Can we tell?

I know of three prayers that Paul, the apostle to gentiles prayed under inspiration of God. In all three he is desiring that we increase in the knowledge of God. The will of God is that we know him and he wrote his word in the infinite manner of God, which means it is a well without a bottom.and we can learn new things as long as we live and study it.​

He posted three prayers below only from the KJV.

So, I have again posted those prayers, however from the Berean Study Bible.

I ask, is there really any significant difference?

Anything doctrine unsoundly presented that would bring a lack of veracity to the Word?

Again, I am not discrediting the KJV, but questioning the presentations of this thread.

Eph1

15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him. 18I ask that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.​

Col 1

9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and may please Him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have full endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.​

Eph 3

12In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God’s presence with boldness and confidence. 13So I ask you not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory. 14... for this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I ask that out of the riches of His glory He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Then you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18will have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth 19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.​

Just one thought here.

I am so familiar with my KJV bible that reading a different translation is the same thing as comparing it with my KJV and when an error presents itself I am immediately stunned by it. Such is the case with reading the prayer in Col 1:9-21 in your bible. I saw that there was no blood in verse 14. Redemption without blood? my KJV says the following.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

It seems to me that the redemption through blood is key to the point Paul is making in the chapter, that Jesus is the firstborn over the regenerated creation. If principalities and powers and things in heaven and earth were created by him and for him and by him consist, they must be reconciled and that reconciliation is made by his own blood.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

There are key and subtle omissions in some translations that are not spiritually healthy.

 

[JD731]

The purpose of the thread was upon unity.

The question resolved around the concern that knowing and study of languages and the development of new translations has not resulted in greater unity of believers.

To that end, answers were given, and then the thread became (as many do) side tracked into exaltation of one version.

I have posted some responses concerning the exaltation, and my own thinking, while asking for more discussion.

This post is to respond to another issue brought up in the thread. It is concerning the reformed teaching on the atonement and in particular limited atonement.
A few things:

1) All schemes that deal with the doctrine of atonement present it limited in some manner - either by God or by humans - with the exception of one that is heretical.
2) Not everyone in the reformed camp hold to every point of the reformed camp's reputed thinking.
3) Not everyone in the not reformed camp hold to every point of the not reformed camp's reputed thinking.
4) There have been long and will be long threads concerning this matter and this thread wasn't about atonement.
​

I am reminded of reading about an early church writer recording the last days of the Apostle John.

He reported that John became so feeble that he would be carried into the assembly, and when taken to speak to the people would say, "My Children, dwell in love and unity." and then as we of a certain age do so often, kept repeating himself.

@JD731 had a very important and insightful point at the start of this thread.

Why is there not more unity.

Is it because there is a lack of love?

Doctrinal purity is important. This is one reason I cannot agree with some presentations by pastors, for the message does not stand the sifting of Scriptures.

Doing the work of the Word is important. But it matters little how much word and work one does if they have not love.

Perfect love casts out fear, and there is no common place for perfect love and fear.

Therefore, all readers beloved of the Lord, love one another, and although we may sharply disagree may we not neglect that first love and that love for the brethern (and sisters, .... I suppose).

Point #1 - It was not anyone who you would accuse of exalting the KJV, your charge against us, who changed the subject, it was logos1560, who knows no other argument.

Point #2 - the T.U.L.I.P, which all reformed believes, and includes limited atonement, and is defined by the system as God purposely not making a way for the vast majority of sinners on the earth, is not something that all Christians will accept as true.

Point #3 - The same God who says we are to love the brethren also warns about false teachers and tells us to mark them which cause division and offenses contrary to the doctrine we have learned and avoid them. So, sound doctrine is more important to God than tolerant fellowship.

 

[Logos1560]

Point #3 - The same God who says we are to love the brethren also warns about false teachers and tells us to mark them which cause division and offenses contrary to the doctrine we have learned and avoid them. So, sound doctrine is more important to God than tolerant fellowship.

KJV-only teaching causes divisions and offenses contrary to the New Testament doctrine taught by the apostles. KJV-onlyism has not been demonstrated to be sound Bible doctrine since it adds many non-scriptural opinions of men that are not taught in Scripture. KJV-only teaching is not a doctrine of God taught in Scripture. A sound understanding and just application of the Bible doctrines concerning inspiration and preservation of the Scriptures do not actually lead to modern KJV-onlyism. KJV-onlyism's acceptance of some scriptural truths inconsistently applied and its addition of non-scriptural opinions of men would make it false doctrine. KJV-only reasoning is dependent upon use of fallacies such as begging the question.

 

[agedman]

Just one thought here.

I am so familiar with my KJV bible that reading a different translation is the same thing as comparing it with my KJV and when an error presents itself I am immediately stunned by it. Such is the case with reading the prayer in Col 1:9-21 in your bible. I saw that there was no blood in verse 14. Redemption without blood? my KJV says the following.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

It seems to me that the redemption through blood is key to the point Paul is making in the chapter, that Jesus is the firstborn over the regenerated creation. If principalities and powers and things in heaven and earth were created by him and for him and by him consist, they must be reconciled and that reconciliation is made by his own blood.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

There are key and subtle omissions in some translations that are not spiritually healthy.

Yes, the TR has that in the Greek.

The TR originated by Erasmus trying to beat the Spanish in printing the Greek, and grabbed whatever manuscripts he could, compiled them with out thorough review put in some marginal notes, and sent them to be printed all in less than six weeks.

The TR had to undergo many revisions as it was so poorly compiled and unreliable.

Unfortunately, not all the errors were corrected by 1633. Tyndale used the TR and so did Luther (the second edition).

By the end of the 1600’s, enough manuscripts were found to show more problems with the TR.

Now, do NOT think I am being critical of the TR, but showing, how as the translators of the KJV wrote in the preface, that further updating, revisions, and editing would be necessary as more information was gathered. It is unfortunate that some do not understand what those good translators were presenting.

For your own information and to gain understanding, here is a link that presents factually the various aspects pertaining to manuscripts and the impact on translators.
Differences Between the Majority Text and the Textus Receptus

In no manner am I exalting any translation, and as nearly every reputable scholar agrees, there are no significant doctrine brought into dispute in any of the discovered manuscripts, but greater validation that God’s hand certainly preserved the Scriptures and has caused a growing body of manuscripts to be explored and proper rendering made.

Just as the KJV translators pointedly knew and stated needed to be done. They knew their work was just a start, as good as it is, it is still a start.

 

[Conan]

Just one thought here.

I am so familiar with my KJV bible that reading a different translation is the same thing as comparing it with my KJV and when an error presents itself I am immediately stunned by it. Such is the case with reading the prayer in Col 1:9-21 in your bible. I saw that there was no blood in verse 14. Redemption without blood? my KJV says the following.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

It seems to me that the redemption through blood is key to the point Paul is making in the chapter, that Jesus is the firstborn over the regenerated creation. If principalities and powers and things in heaven and earth were created by him and for him and by him consist, they must be reconciled and that reconciliation is made by his own blood.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

There are key and subtle omissions in some translations that are not spiritually healthy.

I think the words were added from Ephesians , where the words are genuine. Here in Colossians the words are missing in the Majority Text.

Colossians 1:14 M-text and NU both lack “through His blood".

 

[agedman]

Point #1 - It was not anyone who you would accuse of exalting the KJV, your charge against us, who changed the subject, it was logos1560, who knows no other argument.

I apologize for not including logos I my responses, I got side tracked, it should have returned.

Point #2 - the T.U.L.I.P, which all reformed believes, and includes limited atonement, and is defined by the system as God purposely not making a way for the vast majority of sinners on the earth, is not something that all Christians will accept as true.

I agree that the reform folks as well as most Baptists consider the PSA theory as statements of fact. I do not.

However, there are reformed who teach prevenient Grace, also. I do not.

All systems have a limited atonement, be it by God or by human rejection, universal atonement is heretical teaching.

That all are already condemned and few are redeemed is up to God, for He gives the increase and gets the glory. Our work to to sow the seed, indiscriminately

Point #3 - The same God who says we are to love the brethren also warns about false teachers and tells us to mark them which cause division and offenses contrary to the doctrine we have learned and avoid them. So, sound doctrine is more important to God than tolerant fellowship.

I would agree in part.

What some in the fundamental independent non-affiliated Baptist might consider sound doctrine, others in the liberal Southern Baptist churches might consider non-essential.

Near the turn of the last century, meetings and agreements were produced concerning the primary fundamental doctrines in which folks could gather in fellowship.

It is in those specific areas in which a disagreement obliges separating.

What doctrine would you consider essential enough to add to what those good men put together?

For the readers, here is an article giving the background of the fundamentals in a very brief form. The Fundamentals - Wikipedia

 

[Baptist4life]

KJV-only teaching causes divisions and offenses ...........

And I submit that YOUR posts cause divisions and offenses.........Just WHERE are all these "divisions" you speak of? I have several aquaintances who are KJVO, attend KJVO churches, and yet I am able to attend their churches, use whatever Bible I want and no one is upset by it. No arguments, no divisions, nothing. I'm highly skeptical of all the claims on here, and elsewhere, that being KJVO causes all the problems you say. I haven't seen it at all. I daresay, all these forums that you post endlessly on, day after day, are causing more un-Christlike behavior, bickering, and division than the KJVO issue ever could. I think it's ridculous to continue after all these years, but then, if it simply went away, YOU wouldn't have any life whatsoever! And that's just sad. I'm past the point of being annoyed by you, I now truly just feel sorry for you.

 

[Logos1560]

That seems to be describing an essentially emotional response, not a reasonable response.

If and when such are able to calm down and look at the matter rationally, then a good teacher can walk them through it.

People are imperfect. Copyists make errors. Translators make errors. Even printers make errors. And these people are making a huge error in judgment here.

However, if their faith is truly in Christ, then they will find the way through such difficulties.

Good observations.

KJV-only teaching can lead to emotional, unreasonable responses. While likely unintended, one poster is actually pointing out one problem with many people having been taught to believe blindly KJV-only assertions that are not true. Some churches have in their statements of faith assertions for the KJV that are not true; therefore, misleading and misinforming the members of those churches. There are over 150 books by KJV-only authors, and these books misinform and mislead many readers.

Some may have jumped to a wrong conclusion that faith in the word of God is supposedly being harmed by presentation of the truth. God has not given believers a spirit of fear of truth. To believe assertions that are not true is to be deceived concerning the non-true claim being believed. It is not wrong to expose the false claims and false teaching found in KJV-onlyism. It is sound and scriptural to warn believers concerning the possibility of being deceived by believing assertions or claims that are not true.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[agedman]

And I submit that YOUR posts cause divisions and offenses.........Just WHERE are all these "divisions" you speak of? I have several aquaintances who are KJVO, attend KJVO churches, and yet I am able to attend their churches, use whatever Bible I want and no one is upset by it. No arguments, no divisions, nothing. I'm highly skeptical of all the claims on here, and elsewhere, that being KJVO causes all the problems you say. I haven't seen it at all. I daresay, all these forums that you post endlessly on, day after day, are causing more un-Christlike behavior, bickering, and division than the KJVO issue ever could. I think it's ridculous to continue after all these years, but then, if it simply went away, YOU wouldn't have any life whatsoever! And that's just sad. I'm past the point of being annoyed by you, I now truly just feel sorry for you.

Good observations.

KJV-only teaching can lead to emotional, unreasonable responses. While likely unintended, one poster is actually pointing out one problem with many people having been taught to believe blindly KJV-only assertions that are not true. Some churches have in their statements of faith assertions for the KJV that are not true; therefore, misleading and misinforming the members of those churches. There are over 150 books by KJV-only authors, and these books misinform and mislead many readers.

Some may have jumped to a wrong conclusion that faith in the word of God is supposedly being harmed by presentation of the truth. God has not given believers a spirit of fear of truth. To believe assertions that are not true is to be deceived concerning the non-true claim being believed. It is not wrong to expose the false claims and false teaching found in KJV-onlyism. It is sound and scriptural to warn believers concerning the possibility of being deceived by believing assertions or claims that are not true.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Like Baptist4lfe, I, also, have been in KJVO assemblies, and when the pastor preaches from the Scripture, and makes proper application there is no reason for division. Division comes by some assuming the extreme of the view and they have little food to offer the folks other then opinion. You are correct that most do not make a huge issue of those who carry a variant.

As Logos1560 points out, the KJV only (extremist) teaching can lead to emotional, and unreasonable responses, and I think that all are in agreement with that sentiment.

I have been in highly divisive places trying to bring reconciliation to hurting and those hurt. The one consistency is the lack of true adoration for each other. The author of confusion loves division and thrives in disharmony. Pride and fear of being seen as weak leads to some unfortunate behaviors.

Each of us on the forums have our own certain "trip switches" in which a thread or post will cause us to react perhaps too harshly at times and in our zeal may sometimes express ourselves in what others may consider unreasonableness.

I would that folks would remember to attend to their first love, to remain true to the fundamentals of faith, shun those who would teach otherwise to those basic truths, and leave the rest to preferences.

The KJV is a wonderful translation, and so are others. God is using scholarship of manuscripts to bring clarity to His word that all may benefit.

Let us all resolve to esteem translations, read and live by the Scripture principles, and lift up our hearts in serving the Lord. The Word is settled in Heaven, and yet does not leave us, for He is in us.

Rejoice that, unlike folks centuries ago who could only trust in what they were told for they did not hold, we all have been given the responsibility to read and live the Scriptures. How much more accountable will we all be then they who even began with translating the KJV if we neglect the study causing us to grow in wisdom and live for Christ.

 

[JD731]

Yes, the TR has that in the Greek.

The TR originated by Erasmus trying to beat the Spanish in printing the Greek, and grabbed whatever manuscripts he could, compiled them with out thorough review put in some marginal notes, and sent them to be printed all in less than six weeks.

The TR had to undergo many revisions as it was so poorly compiled and unreliable.

Unfortunately, not all the errors were corrected by 1633. Tyndale used the TR and so did Luther (the second edition).

By the end of the 1600’s, enough manuscripts were found to show more problems with the TR.

Now, do NOT think I am being critical of the TR, but showing, how as the translators of the KJV wrote in the preface, that further updating, revisions, and editing would be necessary as more information was gathered. It is unfortunate that some do not understand what those good translators were presenting.

For your own information and to gain understanding, here is a link that presents factually the various aspects pertaining to manuscripts and the impact on translators.
Differences Between the Majority Text and the Textus Receptus

In no manner am I exalting any translation, and as nearly every reputable scholar agrees, there are no significant doctrine brought into dispute in any of the discovered manuscripts, but greater validation that God’s hand certainly preserved the Scriptures and has caused a growing body of manuscripts to be explored and proper rendering made.

Just as the KJV translators pointedly knew and stated needed to be done. They knew their work was just a start, as good as it is, it is still a start.

Well, we will let the scholars battle that out (they are the only Christians who can) because those of us who neither have the time, inclination, or ability to research 2000 year old manuscripts will have to figure out if we will get our instruction for faith and practice from God and his reliable and tested scriptures or follow you fellows who, 1) either do not have the Spirit of God in you to teach you, or 2) you do have the Spirit in you but you do not think he can interact with you and lead you into truth so you think you must do his job.

Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
(Note: verses 23, 25 are not speaking of the written word of God)

Jesus, to the Devil about himself, and us.
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This ends the argument for me.

And, let me say that you and others who insist on liberty to present the word of God in words chosen by scores of different English translation committees; you do not have any more confidence in the original source texts than you do the English translations. You quote the KJV translators as hunting for the word of God as if it is lost. If you would have stopped at two or three translations over a long time you would have had much more credibility.

I am just too simple of a man to run in your crowd.

there are no significant doctrine brought into dispute in any of the discovered manuscripts,

How can you be sure of that because not many of manuscript hunters agrees on what is significant and sound doctrine.

Let me say this to you. A man who teaches that God imputes faith to the sinner so he can believe unto righteousness and the man who teaches that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to the believer of the gospel in the person of his Holy Spirit because he believes are not teaching the same gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[JD731]

You are doing a good job at puffing, but have shown no real evidence concerning the doctrines of the faith.


Y
Upon what authority other than your own bluster do you present that the KJV is superior to any other?

Have you presented the texts of the translation in comparison to the texts used of others and by comparing and contrasting shown some weakness or doctrinal error?

If Timothy was told to study, where is your work in this matter being evidenced?

Ps 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Some people reading other bibles than the KJV would read it as if the heathen and the rulers are the same people in this Psalm. They would be wrong and I can prove it and will in some following post. But some of the translations makes the word people a plural, which is an error.

You may not think little things like that makes a difference, but we have a wide range of teaching on eschatology and in that field of bible study it makes a great difference Following is how the other English versions translate it.

KJ21
Why do the heathen rage, and the people devise a vain thing?
ASV
Why do the nations rage, And the peoples meditate a vain thing?
AMP
Why are the nations in an uproar [in turmoil against God], And why do the people devise a vain and hopeless plot?
AMPC
Why do the nations assemble with commotion [uproar and confusion of voices], and why do the people imagine (meditate upon and devise) an empty scheme?
BRG
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
CSB
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
CEB
Why do the nations rant? Why do the peoples rave uselessly?
CJB
Why are the nations in an uproar, the peoples grumbling in vain?
CEV
Why do the nations plot, and why do their people make useless plans?
DARBY
Why are the nations in tumultuous agitation, and [why] do the peoples meditate a vain thing?
DRA
Why have the Gentiles raged, and the people devised vain things?
ERV
Why are the nations so angry? Why are the people making such foolish plans?
EHV
Why do the nations rage? Why do the peoples grumble in vain?
ESV
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
ESVUK
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
EXB
Why ·are the nations so angry [do the nations rage/or conspire]? Why ·are the people making useless plans [do the people plot in vain]?
GNV
The Prophet David rejoiceth, that notwithstanding his enemies’ rage, yet God will continue his kingdom forever, and advance it even to the end of the world,  10 and therefore exhorteth kings and rulers, that they would humbly submit themselves under God’s yoke, because it is in vain to resist God.  Herein is figured Christ’s kingdom. Why do the heathen rage, and the people murmur in vain.
GW
Why do the nations gather together? Why do their people devise useless plots?
GNT
Why do the nations plan rebellion? Why do people make their useless plots?
HCSB
Why do the nations rebel and the peoples plot in vain?
ICB
Why are the nations so angry? Why are the people making useless plans?
ISV
Why are the nations in an uproar, and their people involved in a vain plot?
JUB
¶ Why do the Gentiles rage, and the peoples imagine a vain thing?
KJV
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
AKJV
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
LEB
Why are nations in tumult, and countries plotting in vain?
TLB
What fools the nations are to rage against the Lord! How strange that men should try to outwit God!*
MSG
Why the big noise, nations? Why the mean plots, peoples? Earth-leaders push for position, Demagogues and delegates meet for summit talks, The God-deniers, the Messiah-defiers: “Let’s get free of God! Cast loose from Messiah!” Heaven-throned God breaks out laughing. At first he’s amused at their presumption; Then he gets good and angry. Furiously, he shuts them up: “Don’t you know there’s a King in Zion? A coronation banquet Is spread for him on the holy summit.”
MEV
Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot in vain?
NOG
Why do the nations gather together? Why do their people devise useless plots?
NABRE
Why do the nations protest and the peoples conspire in vain?
NASB
Why are the nations restless And the peoples plotting in vain?
NASB1995
Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?
NCB

 

[JD731]

MEV
Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot in vain?
NOG
Why do the nations gather together? Why do their people devise useless plots?
NABRE
Why do the nations protest and the peoples conspire in vain?
NASB
Why are the nations restless And the peoples plotting in vain?
NASB1995
Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?
NCB
Why do the nations rage and the peoples devise futile plots?
NCV
Why are the nations so angry? Why are the people making useless plans?
NET
Why do the nations rebel? Why are the countries devising plots that will fail?
NIRV
Why do the nations plan evil together? Why do they make useless plans?
NIV
Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?
NIVUK
Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?
NKJV
Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
NLV
Why are the nations so shaken up and the people planning foolish things?
NLT
Why are the nations so angry? Why do they waste their time with futile plans?
NRSV
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?
NRSVA
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?
NRSVACE
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?
NRSVCE
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?
OJB
Why do the Goyim rage, and the Amim (peoples) imagine a vain thing?
TPT
How dare the nations plan a rebellion. Their foolish plots are futile!
RSV
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?
RSVCE
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?
TLV
Why are the nations in an uproar, and the peoples mutter vanity?
VOICE
You are wondering: What has provoked the nations to embrace anger and chaos? Why are the people making plans to pursue their own vacant and empty greatness?
WEB
Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing?
WYC
Why gnashed with teeth heathen men; and peoples thought vain things? (Why do the heathen gnash with their teeth? and the peoples think up useless plans?)
YLT
Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity?

There are at least 20 more but apparently it takes between 2000 and 3000 characters to post Psa 2:1 in all the English translations, and no doubt there will be more to come.